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Old 05-14-2012, 02:45 PM   #26
Dr.Jonesy
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I did not omit opposing sources in my paper, believe me. This thread is talking about the success of the film, not the failures. And the reason I started this thread is because the evidence to support the idea that it was a positively received film that achieved a decent level of success far outweighed the contrary.

I felt it was necessary to open a discussion that asserts that the film was more positively received than negatively and that the amount of 'hate' is overblown. I do understand where you're coming from, though.

The reason I put TheRaven poll (which there are a few more, as well) was to show the hardcore fanbase opinion. Does this encompass the entire fanbase? No. But the diehards here gave their opinion and I doubt it'd be much different if every hardcore fan was asked based on that overwhelming positive result. If the poll was the opposite, I guarantee you every disliker on this forum would parade that around and nobody would discredit that poll number.
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Old 05-14-2012, 03:28 PM   #27
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I find the raven poll very interesting simply because it seems so at odds with views expressed on COW and other fan groups. But hey, we're obviously not going to agree on this or the way you've chosen to present your research.
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Old 05-14-2012, 05:23 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Djd1
I find the raven poll very interesting simply because it seems so at odds with views expressed on COW and other fan groups. But hey, we're obviously not going to agree on this or the way you've chosen to present your research.

If you're talking about the Club Obi Wan forum, then there is mostly positivity there for KOTCS...I'm on there right now as a matter of fact.
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Old 05-14-2012, 05:37 PM   #29
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Well times have certainly changed then! Yes COW - club obi wan.

I'm not sure what you want me to say? I don't like the film and I've not met anyone who does. I can't really do much about that can I? Does that make me a 'hater'? That's such a fan-boy word isn't it? I don't like the film. I dont think the script works. There are a lot of good actors who are totally wasted in it. The stunts are so polluted with cgi as to be meaningless. The story is unintersting and even John Williams' score is not memorable. Now, that dosent make me a 'hater' it makes me a reasoning human being who loves film but just can't find much to like in this one- despite desperately wanting to. I've apologised if I was overly short with you earlier but you seem intent on being angry.
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Old 05-14-2012, 06:19 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Djd1
Well times have certainly changed then! Yes COW - club obi wan.

I'm not sure what you want me to say? I don't like the film and I've not met anyone who does. I can't really do much about that can I? Does that make me a 'hater'? That's such a fan-boy word isn't it? I don't like the film. I dont think the script works. There are a lot of good actors who are totally wasted in it. The stunts are so polluted with cgi as to be meaningless. The story is unintersting and even John Williams' score is not memorable. Now, that dosent make me a 'hater' it makes me a reasoning human being who loves film but just can't find much to like in this one- despite desperately wanting to. I've apologised if I was overly short with you earlier but you seem intent on being angry.

That surprises me. Even the worst films of all time, I've met someone in my life who has said 'Yup, I love it!'

I can only speak for myself and I've lived in two parts of the country since 2008, and the majority at least liked it. That's all I can speak for.

Who was making you out to be a 'hater'? Not me. As far as you not being sure what I want you to say, who said you had to keep replying? The complaints you have for the film (while not unwarranted) really aren't for this thread, as it is not for that purpose, there are plenty of other critical threads that I've contributed to as well. Not being rude, but I don't want my thread to turn into a 'What worked/didn't work in KOTCS' thread.

I suppose we're at an impasse. I'm saying it was quite positively received, you're saying the opposite. I provided a long list to support that idea, you provided IMDB and anecdotes of personal experience. I guess we'll have to disagree.

I don't mean any harm or malicious intent, dear fellow Indy fan.
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Old 05-14-2012, 06:27 PM   #31
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No worries then pal. Sorry to derail your thread. My motive was merely that I felt you were being selective with your evidence and that your case would seem stronger if you gave more apparent thought to dealing with the evidence that contradicts your thesis. If youve done that in your actual paper then bravo!

Have a pleasant evening
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Old 05-15-2012, 01:04 AM   #32
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Dr.Jonesy, I raised a similar point in another thread here in the last couple of weeks. Anecdotally, I'd say that the response to Indy IV was mostly negative - going by the people I've spoken to. But when I look at sources on the net, I find it's the opposite (for the reasons you mentioned - box office, critic aggregators and so on).

It does seem to me that the film was more positively than negatively received overall. But then you've got people like Lucas who said recently that if Indy V gets made, more people will be dissatisfied than satisfied.

That being said, I can imagine that a LOT more people will pay attention to the initial reviews if and when Indy V comes out, and base their decision on those. I imagine a lot of the box office for Indy IV could have been courtesy of folks who were desperate to see Indy after so many years of waiting. If they felt they were 'burnt' by the experience, they might be more cautious next time around.
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Old 05-15-2012, 02:07 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toht's Arm
Dr.Jonesy, I raised a similar point in another thread here in the last couple of weeks. Anecdotally, I'd say that the response to Indy IV was mostly negative - going by the people I've spoken to. But when I look at sources on the net, I find it's the opposite (for the reasons you mentioned - box office, critic aggregators and so on).

It does seem to me that the film was more positively than negatively received overall. But then you've got people like Lucas who said recently that if Indy V gets made, more people will be dissatisfied than satisfied.

It's more likely to be received negatively by long term fans, but not exclusively, of course. Whereas the more casual viewer might accept it as a good action/adventure film because they have nothing invested in the character and therefore fewer demands.

Hence general ratings may be good, but disatisfaction shows most prominently when fans dissect the movie or simply show their disgust.

Lucas' comment could go either way. He could mean he would upset fans by going all out for a general action/adventure, or he could upset the general viewing public by delving more specifically into the character and history of Indy himself.
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Old 05-15-2012, 02:21 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by Montana Smith
Lucas' comment could go either way. He could mean he would upset fans by going all out for a general action/adventure, or he could upset the general viewing public by delving more specifically into the character and history of Indy himself.

Oh man, you've just managed to RAISE my expectations of Indy V because of that. It never occurred to me that he might do something that obsessives like us like but the general public do not. I'm not sure whether to thank you or not...
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Old 05-15-2012, 04:46 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toht's Arm
Dr.Jonesy, I raised a similar point in another thread here in the last couple of weeks. Anecdotally, I'd say that the response to Indy IV was mostly negative - going by the people I've spoken to. But when I look at sources on the net, I find it's the opposite (for the reasons you mentioned - box office, critic aggregators and so on).

It does seem to me that the film was more positively than negatively received overall.

Exactly, and I've been saying this for a few years now and I'm sure it's true. Thanks for agreeing, in some capacity!


Anecdotally, we can only speak for ourselves. You'll say most people you asked didn't care for it, and I know the people I know loved it. It just depends, I guess. But we're all being truthful here.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Toht's Arm
That being said, I can imagine that a LOT more people will pay attention to the initial reviews if and when Indy V comes out, and base their decision on those. I imagine a lot of the box office for Indy IV could have been courtesy of folks who were desperate to see Indy after so many years of waiting. If they felt they were 'burnt' by the experience, they might be more cautious next time around.

Of course, and while KOTCS was positively received for the most part, it of course wasn't 'The Dark Knight' or 'Avengers' status glowing, therefore more people will be less likely to see the sequel in theaters, not because they hated the last one, but because they got their Indy-dose after 20 years already and they can wait if they know it won't blow them away. Demand for an Indy film is depleted since we all got our fix. Any Indy sequel would kill on rental sales, though!
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Old 05-15-2012, 07:58 AM   #36
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Things are pretty desparate if you start trying to second guess public opinion to justify whether a film is any good.

I say KOCS sucks (geddit?) big time, but hey, a good barometer would be film critics and hardcore fans.

Critics: Put it this way - Raiders is in most critics 'top action film' lists, whereas KoCS would most likely feature in the top 'worst sequels' list.
Hardcore fans: I dont see many clamouring to place KOCs in the top 3 of the 4 films.
Ergo: It's not very good.

Throw as many stats around as you like , but the film is still gonna be crap whichever way you slice it.
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Old 05-15-2012, 08:35 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by replican't
KoCS would most likely feature in the top 'worst sequels' list.
Yes, but not like you think.
http://raven.theraider.net/showpost.php?p=528576

Of the major franchises, only Toy Story, Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter and Bourne have better quality control.
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Old 05-15-2012, 08:46 AM   #38
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I think the box office is a telling statistic for the film. Although it did well enough and made a healthy profit on the all time (adjusted) list it comes in at 128. That compares to 92 for crusade, 74 for temple and 19 for raiders. It's trounced by all the (unpopular) star wars prequels, the lowest of which is at 73. It's not a terrible performance but given the level of anticipation there was for the film it has to be seen as disappointing. Phantom Menace comes in at 17 by way of comparison. Just throwing this in there as it makes interesting reading and not trying to start a flame war
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Old 05-15-2012, 12:08 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Djd1
I think the box office is a telling statistic for the film. Although it did well enough and made a healthy profit on the all time (adjusted) list it comes in at 128. That compares to 92 for crusade, 74 for temple and 19 for raiders. It's trounced by all the (unpopular) star wars prequels, the lowest of which is at 73. It's not a terrible performance but given the level of anticipation there was for the film it has to be seen as disappointing. Phantom Menace comes in at 17 by way of comparison. Just throwing this in there as it makes interesting reading and not trying to start a flame war

I haven't examined your figures so I'm just going off what you state... so if I was to use this as qualitative data then the Star Wars prequels are better and more popular than all Indy sequels??? How many other good movies does The Phantom Menace beat (and I say that as someone who likes the prequels)?
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Old 05-15-2012, 12:26 PM   #40
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No - as I said I'm not trying to start an argument (even if you seem to want one ). I'm just looking at the box office as a measure of success. It doesn't equate to quality necessarily but it's a potential way of gauging what the public thought of it and how much they might desire an Indy V
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Old 05-15-2012, 12:40 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by Djd1
No - as I said I'm not trying to start an argument (even if you seem to want one ). I'm just looking at the box office as a measure of success. It doesn't equate to quality necessarily but it's a potential way of gauging what the public thought of it and how much they might desire an Indy V

I agree that economic success is the only quantifiable statistic.

Critical success is something altogether different. It's opinion, and everybody has one, whether it's for, against, indifferent or measured. In that regard what makes the critic special? They may have a more informed view, but the things we like or dislike are as personal as a critic's private opinion.

So, I stand by my argument that it is up to personal opinion whether something is good or not. Watching a film is a subjective experience, even though external influences may be playing a part in the process.

Hence so many opinon-based message board threads do result in acrimony, because some individuals cannot bear that others hold a differing view.

It can be a painful process owning up to liking something perceived as generally unpopular! Yet the voices of hate sting worst, and sound louder and more dominant. It skews perception, and may explain why polls seem at odds with anecdotal evidence.
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Old 05-15-2012, 01:54 PM   #42
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I do not disagree with anything you say there. As you say it's personal. Indy is one of the reasons I studied ancient and medieval history many years ago. I Loved the first two films and the third one less so. I was looking forward to number 4 greatly - more so than any other film I can recall (maybe except empire strikes back). So I really wanted to like skull....

The biggest disappointment to me was that my son who was a big Indy fan prior to skull (was in the local paper in costume at the local premier) didn't like it. Really killed the series for him and I saw none of his friends playing Indy. The only people buying the toys were adults like me trying unsuccessfully to get their kids I interested. So just from my own perspective I see the film as a failure on every level
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Old 05-15-2012, 02:39 PM   #43
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To use Box Office Figures is ridiculous, it doesn't indicate quality and to suggest that KOTCS is validated as being a horrible movie BASED on that is even more outrageous, it was the highest grossing film worldwide of 2008. How does that indicate it was bad anyway?

replican't;

You're obviously not interested in any form of intelligent conversation. Djd1 is giving examples and trying to back up what he says, as opposed to you who just writes what you want, but nothing to back it up. I have alot in my original post to contradict everything you say. Saying the film is 'crap' is subjective, bud. Not to mention your little list of what critics and fans 'think' has no basis nor any support.

Being completely honest here, you're a tad like a broken record. You have your little mission to just say 'It sucks', 'It's always gonna be crap'. Sorry buddy, but that's just your opinion.

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Old 05-15-2012, 02:59 PM   #44
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Will you calm down - again!

Read my post. Box office is a measure of success - the one the studio are interested in as it happens. I didn't say it spoke to the films quality although it does say something of its popularity. Stop jumping down my throat.
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Old 05-15-2012, 03:12 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Djd1
Box office is a measure of success - the one the studio are interested in as it happens. I didn't say it spoke to the films quality although it does say something of its popularity.

That was my intention also - since the thread's title is "The Success of the Film".

Financial success is the one statistic that can't be skewed, unless there's some dodgy accounting.
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Old 05-15-2012, 07:01 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Djd1
Will you calm down - again!

Read my post. Box office is a measure of success - the one the studio are interested in as it happens. I didn't say it spoke to the films quality although it does say something of its popularity. Stop jumping down my throat.

I'm not being hostile, I think you're really taking my words and hearing them with hostility in your head...

Sometimes tone gets lost in the text...
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Old 05-15-2012, 07:31 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Djd1
The biggest disappointment to me was that my son who was a big Indy fan prior to skull (was in the local paper in costume at the local premier) didn't like it. Really killed the series for him and I saw none of his friends playing Indy. The only people buying the toys were adults like me trying unsuccessfully to get their kids I interested. So just from my own perspective I see the film as a failure on every level

This is how I most feel.

I was a big fan of the first three movies and could watch them over and over.

But I didn't care for KOTCS and have only seen it twice and have little to no desire to ever see it again. I didn't care for the story or characterizations and outcomes at all.

And my niece who was also a fan of the first three, wasn't impressed with Skull either. I asked her how she liked and she was like, eh, and said something like "it was like they tried too hard, to do too much", and I get what she means.

It just jumped the shark for me and I wish they had just stuck with the original trilogy if this was going to be the result of more films.
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Old 05-16-2012, 04:14 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.Jonesy

I'm not being hostile, I think you're really taking my words and hearing them with hostility in your head...

Sometimes tone gets lost in the text...
Sorry old chap- I was responding to your "using the box office figures is ridiculous" comment. It wasn't an art film. Its reason for being was to get bums on seats at the theatre. On that basis it's hardly a 'ridiculous' measure of success is it? It made money but it was outdone by a couple of films at the US box office that year, including Ironman. I don't like superhero films as a genre but I have to say I thought it was a far more entertaining film than Skull... On the basis of ticket sales alone it seems the public agreed with that assessment. But, as we keep saying, it's down to personal taste.
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Old 05-16-2012, 07:14 AM   #49
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No - as I said I'm not trying to start an argument (even if you seem to want one ). I'm just looking at the box office as a measure of success. It doesn't equate to quality necessarily but it's a potential way of gauging what the public thought of it and how much they might desire an Indy V

Quote:
Originally Posted by Montana Smith
I agree that economic success is the only quantifiable statistic.

Critical success is something altogether different.
Agreed. Ticket sales are a good indicator of a films poularity and its financial success. Empirical technical/artistic quality is more open to debate.
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Old 05-16-2012, 09:23 PM   #50
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While it's easy to be confident about these things in hindsight, I'd say there was a certain inevitability to Indy4 being a success financially. Here is a globally beloved franchise whose audience had endured a near twenty year famine. There are movies that people are simply going to show up to based on brand name alone, and this was unquestionably one of them. I would be very surprised if an Indy5, even one superior in quality, would enjoy the "event" status of Indy4's release that carried it to an $800 million pile. And yes, I do believe that the quality of Indy4 would factor into the diminishing returns there.

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