TheRaider.net
 

Go Back   The Raven > The Films > Kingdom of the Crystal Skull
User Name
Password

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 03-15-2014, 09:42 PM   #26
Montana Smith
IndyFan
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 10,616
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiders112390
Is KOTCS the worst film ever made, Nolanite?

Are you the most idiotic member of this forum?
Montana Smith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2014, 12:48 AM   #27
Indy's brother
IndyFan
 
Indy's brother's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: In the Map Room playing with a laser pointer
Posts: 3,029
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Drifter
The same tired opinions that's been rehashed over and over again.

Indy's Bro: I barely recognize this forum anymore. The members've got us seeing trolls in our soup.

The Drifter: Brutal couple of years, huh, IB? First KOTCS, then the endless sh!t talking.

Indy's Bro: This forum seems to have reached the age where it stops giving us things and starts taking them away.
Indy's brother is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2014, 01:20 AM   #28
Montana Smith
IndyFan
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 10,616
Quote:
Originally Posted by Indy's brother
Indy's Bro: I barely recognize this forum anymore. The members've got us seeing trolls in our soup.

The Drifter: Brutal couple of years, huh, IB? First KOTCS, then the endless sh!t talking.

Indy's Bro: This forum seems to have reached the age where it stops giving us things and starts taking them away.


Professor, this really is a dead end.
Montana Smith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2014, 01:26 AM   #29
The Drifter
IndyFan
 
The Drifter's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: The distant figure that walks the treeline. The man standing in the field.
Posts: 4,152
The bar is getting run down. Not many patrons left. Just the sots and one guy who don't even drink...
The Drifter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2014, 03:11 AM   #30
Finn
Moderator
 
Finn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Finland
Posts: 8,959
Exclamation Mod note

Ahem.
Finn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2014, 03:12 AM   #31
Gear
IndyFan
 
Gear's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Oregon, U.S.
Posts: 2,017
Quote:
Originally Posted by Indy's brother
Indy's Bro: I barely recognize this forum anymore. The members've got us seeing trolls in our soup.

The Drifter: Brutal couple of years, huh, IB? First KOTCS, then the endless sh!t talking.

Indy's Bro: This forum seems to have reached the age where it stops giving us things and starts taking them away.


I'll nominate this for Best Dialogue of 2014 at The Raven come next year.
Gear is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2014, 06:16 AM   #32
Le Saboteur
IndyFan
 
Le Saboteur's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Sham Shui Po
Posts: 1,973
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Drifter
The same tired opinions that's been rehashed over and over again.

I should preface this with: I had zero intention of posting in this thread until I read this, but the kvetching about the carping and grousing is infinitely more irritating than everything that preceded it. Which begs the question, 'What exactly have you brought to the table lately?' Doors have been opened by myself and others, but if you're completely unwilling to step through them what privilege was afforded you to complain about the way the forum is being used? At least somebody is using it in some form however meager that form may be. The only thing stopping anybody from changing the tone and direction of conversation around here is the demonstrated lack of intellectual curiosity. Which I have always found rather surprising for fans of a globetrotting archeologist.

Books? Wuzza book?! I only want see Harry punch Nazees in duh face!

And I'm already aware of the irony. Thank you.
Le Saboteur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2014, 09:24 PM   #33
The Drifter
IndyFan
 
The Drifter's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: The distant figure that walks the treeline. The man standing in the field.
Posts: 4,152
Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Saboteur
I should preface this with: I had zero intention of posting in this thread until I read this, but the kvetching about the carping and grousing is infinitely more irritating than everything that preceded it. Which begs the question, 'What exactly have you brought to the table lately?' Doors have been opened by myself and others, but if you're completely unwilling to step through them what privilege was afforded you to complain about the way the forum is being used? At least somebody is using it in some form however meager that form may be. The only thing stopping anybody from changing the tone and direction of conversation around here is the demonstrated lack of intellectual curiosity. Which I have always found rather surprising for fans of a globetrotting archeologist.

Books? Wuzza book?! I only want see Harry punch Nazees in duh face!

And I'm already aware of the irony. Thank you.

Sigh...
I knew it wouldn't be long before you stopped posting about movies and video games long enough to rear your head in this thread yet again.
I've never claimed that I have brought anything to the table lately as I rarely even post here anymore. Also, what doors are you speaking of? Old serials? Superhero movies? Sinbad? Is it mandatory for each member to post in your threads now? I've glanced through your threads, and frankly they are dull and boring, and that sort of stuff just doesn't interests me. Sad, but true

Yep, if the things Le Sab posts do not arouse your interests, you're not an intellectual! Oh, give me a damn break. You sound like you're whining that people aren't posting in your threads - get over it.
And you speak of 'privilege'? I reckon I'm free to spout my thoughts as much as you are around here.

And as I said earlier. It's a never-ending circle here in this part of The Raven. People going back-and-forth over KotCS. It's been going on for years. It gets tiresome to see the unceasing bickering.
The Drifter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2014, 09:28 PM   #34
Stoo
IndyFan
 
Stoo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Neuchâtel, Switzerland (Canadian from Montreal)
Posts: 8,027
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiders112390
Celebrate Nolan, peasant!!!!!!!!!!
Raiders112390, you've been here for over 7 years and should well know people's disposition on the subject of Indy 4 by now. Why do you even feel the need to ask the question? Instead of remarks like the above (in your own thread), why don't you tell us about the present status of YOUR OWN FEELINGS concerning "Crystal Skull" after 6 years.

C'mon, Raiders112390, be approachable within this community. What are you afraid of? (You've never even chosen a Raven Avatar. What's up with that?)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Saboteur
The only thing stopping anybody from changing the tone and direction of conversation around here is the demonstrated lack of intellectual curiosity. Which I have always found rather surprising for fans of a globetrotting archeologist.
Right. Beggars can't be choosers when they get thrown a bone.
Stoo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-17-2014, 12:51 AM   #35
Raiders112390
IndyFan
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,038
At first, I was deeply disappointed by KOTCS. It felt like it was missing a certain magic, a certain undefinable magic. And in denial, I veered back and forth between hating it and loving it; my feelings wildly flip flopped on it and I wasn't sure what to think. With the passage of six years, I have a clearer mind on the subject....I think it's a good film. A dumb film, much more mindless entertainment than Raiders, it is kind of like a fusion of LC and TOD. The one element I dislike is Shia. Otherwise, the film is fine for what it was: a compromise effort. I think Lucas' original idea, the Saucerman script, would've made a much superior film with some tweaks and refinement, but as is, Skull merits a B, whereas Raiders is an A+ film, TOD is an A, and LC is an A. KOTCS is just good entertainment, no more, no less. Not worthy of astounding praise, but also not worthy of the vile hate and disdain it's gotten.
Raiders112390 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-17-2014, 01:24 AM   #36
Montana Smith
IndyFan
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 10,616
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiders112390
Not worthy of astounding praise, but also not worthy of the vile hate and disdain it's gotten.

Exactly.

I've never claimed to love nor hate it.

It sits in the middle. There are glimpses of former greatness, and then there are things you don't want to see because you want to bury your head in your heads.

The earlier parts of the film create a fine sense of suspense. It's greatest sin is in the failure to make anything in the later parts mean enough to maintain attention. Characterization, situations and acting don't hold up well when set against those aspects from the first three films. KOTCS feels like a film that Lucas and Spielberg had to make, rather than the one they wanted to make. That's also apparent in the insincerity of some of the acting and the characters themselves.

It has nothing to do with some supposed battle between opposing film-makers. That can't be employed as an explanation for the way some feel about Indy 4, because the explanation is within Indy 4 itself.

Take the following as an example:

Avengers was a $220,000,000 super hero movie. I was compelled to reach for the fast forward button whenever the characters stopped talking.

Kick-Ass 2 was a $28,000,000 super hero movie. I was compelled to watch it twice in quick succession.

Jeff Wadlow quipped that he made Kick-Ass 2 on the Avengers catering budget.

Huge budgets and the possibilities enabled by CGI technology don't always make for better films in my opinion.

I know we have to take inflation into account but consider the budgets for the four films:

ROTLA $18,000,000
TOD $28,000,000
TLC $48,000,000
KOTC $185,000,000

The more money there's available the more chance there is that a film will go off in directions that wouldn't have been originally considered. And the more money that's spent the more people there are that have to be pleased, running the danger of not pleasing enough of them sufficiently.

KOTCS therefore feels disingenuous. Just as the YIJC do for different reasons.
Montana Smith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-17-2014, 01:30 PM   #37
roundshort
IndyFan
 
roundshort's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Napa CA
Posts: 4,096
No. I had taken several years off of even thinking of this movie. Recently I wanted to give it another chance and remain open minded about it.

There is zero upside to it. The few scenes I remembered liking were horrible and the other 95% of the movie I hated were even worse.

I really can not think of 1 nice thing to say about it.

I hear that that using KOTCS has been banned as an integration device!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bz3dKqTjZO4
roundshort is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-17-2014, 03:40 PM   #38
Raiders112390
IndyFan
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,038
Quote:
Originally Posted by Montana Smith
Exactly.

I've never claimed to love nor hate it.

It sits in the middle. There are glimpses of former greatness, and then there are things you don't want to see because you want to bury your head in your heads.

The earlier parts of the film create a fine sense of suspense. It's greatest sin is in the failure to make anything in the later parts mean enough to maintain attention. Characterization, situations and acting don't hold up well when set against those aspects from the first three films. KOTCS feels like a film that Lucas and Spielberg had to make, rather than the one they wanted to make. That's also apparent in the insincerity of some of the acting and the characters themselves.

It has nothing to do with some supposed battle between opposing film-makers. That can't be employed as an explanation for the way some feel about Indy 4, because the explanation is within Indy 4 itself.

Take the following as an example:

Avengers was a $220,000,000 super hero movie. I was compelled to reach for the fast forward button whenever the characters stopped talking.

Kick-Ass 2 was a $28,000,000 super hero movie. I was compelled to watch it twice in quick succession.

Jeff Wadlow quipped that he made Kick-Ass 2 on the Avengers catering budget.

Huge budgets and the possibilities enabled by CGI technology don't always make for better films in my opinion.

I know we have to take inflation into account but consider the budgets for the four films:

ROTLA $18,000,000
TOD $28,000,000
TLC $48,000,000
KOTC $185,000,000

The more money there's available the more chance there is that a film will go off in directions that wouldn't have been originally considered. And the more money that's spent the more people there are that have to be pleased, running the danger of not pleasing enough of them sufficiently.

KOTCS therefore feels disingenuous. Just as the YIJC do for different reasons.

I think KOTCS feels half hearted and half baked in comparison to the original films. It almost feels unfinished or like a lot was left on the cutting room floor. You have some great, cool ideas: Spalko's telepathy, the Aliens as the teachers of humanity, the Ugha, but none of these are ever really explored to their fullest potential. Spalling never exhibits any real power and no real menace, the Aliens feel just thrown in there, Indy somehow gets redeemed at the end and the FBI no longer thinks he's a commie....it just feels very rushed. You'd think the film was the product of a first draft script rather than many rewrites.

I think Darabount's script, mixed with the Saucermen script, could've produced an amazing film.

I disagree with you on the YIJC as I feel that serious has a lot of heart. I always feel a sense of wonder when watching the Corey carrier episodes especially. The YIJC to me feels like an expansion on the wart warmth parts of LC. But can you explain why you feel the YIJC is disingenuous?
Raiders112390 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-17-2014, 05:12 PM   #39
Montana Smith
IndyFan
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 10,616
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiders112390
But can you explain why you feel the YIJC is disingenuous?

Disingenuous in relation to Indiana Jones. Lucas set out to create edutainment with a series that would introduce children to famous people from history, and used Indy as the mechanism to link it all together.

While it was very well made with lavish sets and big set pieces, for much of the time it doesn't feel honest towards Indy himself. There are rare occasions of real adventure. Then there are the episodes that really destroy the illusion: the Kafkaesque farce; the Halloween tale about Dracula; and the sum total of influential people he happened to encounter wherever he went. Old Indy himself had even become a figure of fun.

Then there's the issue of linking young Indy to the mercenary Indy of 1935. Since he was still so upbeat in 1920, whatever made him the way he was in Temple of Doom was something even worse than the horrors he would have experienced during the Great War. Even after meeting all those people who imparted so much knowledge and inspiration, and remaining so upbeat after the war, Indy somehow becomes a rogue and a thief. (It was quite a delayed reaction since Fedora had left an impression on him way back in 1912 according to TLC).

So what we also get with the YIJC is Lucas beginning to redeem Indy from the dark side (the dangerous anti-hero we first see in Peru in 1936, and darker still at the beginning of TOD).

KOTCS directly references the YIJC with the Pancho Villa quip, thereby bringing the television series into film canon. It's also the film in which Indy makes amends for his treatment of Marion; and where we are instructed that real treasure is knowledge, which is at odds with Indy's former obsession with claiming the prize (which was shared by the likes of Belloq, Mola Ram, Donovan and Elsa).

In his early career Lucas was happy to present lovable rogues like Indy or Han Solo. In his later career he appears to be concerned with making them more respectable as role models. It's not so much a character arc as a creator arc, and it sets KOTCS and the YIJC apart.
Montana Smith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-17-2014, 06:29 PM   #40
Finn
Moderator
 
Finn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Finland
Posts: 8,959
Quote:
Originally Posted by Montana Smith
While it was very well made with lavish sets and big set pieces, for much of the time it doesn't feel honest towards Indy himself. There are rare occasions of real adventure. Then there are the episodes that really destroy the illusion: the Kafkaesque farce; the Halloween tale about Dracula; and the sum total of influential people he happened to encounter wherever he went. Old Indy himself had even become a figure of fun.
While I agree with the rest of the criticism, I don't really get the bolded part. Because in YIJC, said figures were, most of the time, part of the scenery. They didn't really do nothing more than send Indy into places where he was more likely to brush shoulders with said people than not. It was not like he was hanging around in one place for the whole series, like on the stool of his regular bar and have all these celebrities just pop in for a drink due to some mystical coincidence.

There is really nothing wrong with concept of employing a historical ensemble cast - as long as it's done right. And YIJC did it so, because Indy never ran into people in places where it made no sense for them to be.
Finn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2014, 12:06 AM   #41
Montana Smith
IndyFan
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 10,616
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn
While I agree with the rest of the criticism, I don't really get the bolded part. Because in YIJC, said figures were, most of the time, part of the scenery. They didn't really do nothing more than send Indy into places where he was more likely to brush shoulders with said people than not. It was not like he was hanging around in one place for the whole series, like on the stool of his regular bar and have all these celebrities just pop in for a drink due to some mystical coincidence.

There is really nothing wrong with concept of employing a historical ensemble cast - as long as it's done right. And YIJC did it so, because Indy never ran into people in places where it made no sense for them to be.

For me it's the fact that he was running into them at all, only because Lucas wanted to introduce those people to the audience. Which makes it Indysploitation. A cheap trick, employing as a lure a well-known character he didn't have to pay for, to sell something else.

It's a bit like this concept:



Quote:
In this exciting new series, Indiana Jones, the famous archaeologist and adventurer, explores the lost worlds of ancient civilizations. Acting as a guide, or narrator, Indiana Jones brings these ancient worlds to life by introducing young children to the excitement of discovering some of the secrets from the past.

http://indianajones.wikia.com/wiki/I...s_Ancient_Rome

In the YIJC Old Indy is that narrator telling stories that may or may not be true which along the way will introduce children to said famous people.
Montana Smith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2014, 01:45 AM   #42
Raiders112390
IndyFan
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,038
Quote:
Originally Posted by Montana Smith
Disingenuous in relation to Indiana Jones. Lucas set out to create edutainment with a series that would introduce children to famous people from history, and used Indy as the mechanism to link it all together.

While it was very well made with lavish sets and big set pieces, for much of the time it doesn't feel honest towards Indy himself. There are rare occasions of real adventure. Then there are the episodes that really destroy the illusion: the Kafkaesque farce; the Halloween tale about Dracula; and the sum total of influential people he happened to encounter wherever he went. Old Indy himself had even become a figure of fun.

While the purpose may have been edutainment, the secondary purpose was about showing Indiana's youth. Taking Old Indy out of the equation, as the current version does, the character isn't really a figure of fun at all. And I never thought the 'vampire' episode was hokey.

Quote:
Then there's the issue of linking young Indy to the mercenary Indy of 1935. Since he was still so upbeat in 1920, whatever made him the way he was in Temple of Doom was something even worse than the horrors he would have experienced during the Great War. Even after meeting all those people who imparted so much knowledge and inspiration, and remaining so upbeat after the war, Indy somehow becomes a rogue and a thief. (It was quite a delayed reaction since Fedora had left an impression on him way back in 1912 according to TLC).

So what we also get with the YIJC is Lucas beginning to redeem Indy from the dark side (the dangerous anti-hero we first see in Peru in 1936, and darker still at the beginning of TOD).

KOTCS directly references the YIJC with the Pancho Villa quip, thereby bringing the television series into film canon. It's also the film in which Indy makes amends for his treatment of Marion; and where we are instructed that real treasure is knowledge, which is at odds with Indy's former obsession with claiming the prize (which was shared by the likes of Belloq, Mola Ram, Donovan and Elsa).

In his early career Lucas was happy to present lovable rogues like Indy or Han Solo. In his later career he appears to be concerned with making them more respectable as role models. It's not so much a character arc as a creator arc, and it sets KOTCS and the YIJC apart.

I'd argue that the retconning of Indy's character began in LC. No more was it about fortune and glory, no no, 'it belongs in a museum' became Indy's rallying cry, and LC retcons this back to 1912--Indy was a goodie two shoes from the beginning, literally a boy scout, with a domineering dad who could brow best him. I'd argue that the YIJC and KOTCS fit because of LC, wherein we have a kinder, gentler, more humanized Indy. I can't imagine the Indy as portrayed in LC working for gangsters as a mercenary.

'It belongs in a museum' is a big character retcon which fans attempt to explain away by saying Indy had a character arc. But why give the benefit of the doubt to LC, but then criticize the YIJC for the same thing? People say that sometime in between Raiders and LC Indy had a change of heart and reverted to the attitude of his younger self. But YIJC fans say the definitive change from the more upbeat Indy of 1920 to the guy we meet in 1935 happens in the Bantham novels. It's the same kind of rationalism and IMO equally as valid in both cases. The presence of Ford in Mystery of The Blues is what makes the YIJC canon for me, not KoTCs

One could argue that LC goes against what the character was originally all about, The Man With No Name, that concept went out the window after we learned about Indy's past. Indy became a punch line when it was revealed that they named the dog Indiana, and when we find out that Indy ripped his outfit off Fedora.

The 1912 segment is as unrealistic as anything in the YIJC. In a space of ten minutes, Indy gets his inspiration for his outfit, his scar, his fear of snakes, the idea of using a whip, and his hat. That's pretty hokey. If you want to find where the post-rogue, post-anti hero Indy began, look not to the YIJC but to LC.
Raiders112390 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2014, 02:13 AM   #43
Montana Smith
IndyFan
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 10,616
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiders112390
While the purpose may have been edutainment, the secondary purpose was about showing Indiana's youth. Taking Old Indy out of the equation, as the current version does, the character isn't really a figure of fun at all. And I never thought the 'vampire' episode was hokey.



I'd argue that the retconning of Indy's character began in LC. No more was it about fortune and glory, no no, 'it belongs in a museum' became Indy's rallying cry, and LC retcons this back to 1912--Indy was a goodie two shoes from the beginning, literally a boy scout, with a domineering dad who could brow best him. I'd argue that the YIJC and KOTCS fit because of LC, wherein we have a kinder, gentler, more humanized Indy. I can't imagine the Indy as portrayed in LC working for gangsters as a mercenary.

'It belongs in a museum' is a big character retcon which fans attempt to explain away by saying Indy had a character arc. But why give the benefit of the doubt to LC, but then criticize the YIJC for the same thing? People say that sometime in between Raiders and LC Indy had a change of heart and reverted to the attitude of his younger self. But YIJC fans say the definitive change from the more upbeat Indy of 1920 to the guy we meet in 1935 happens in the Bantham novels. It's the same kind of rationalism and IMO equally as valid in both cases. The presence of Ford in Mystery of The Blues is what makes the YIJC canon for me, not KoTCs

One could argue that LC goes against what the character was originally all about, The Man With No Name, that concept went out the window after we learned about Indy's past. Indy became a punch line when it was revealed that they named the dog Indiana, and when we find out that Indy ripped his outfit off Fedora.

The 1912 segment is as unrealistic as anything in the YIJC. In a space of ten minutes, Indy gets his inspiration for his outfit, his scar, his fear of snakes, the idea of using a whip, and his hat. That's pretty hokey. If you want to find where the post-rogue, post-anti hero Indy began, look not to the YIJC but to LC.

Yes, this is where Lucas begins to change and where he (inadvertently?) sets up the premise of the YIJC. It's also where Indy starts meeting famous people, having obtained Hitler's autograph.

Lucas isn't good at keeping to his own canon because he openly changes characters as he himself changes. So we have Indy at a crossroads in 1912, inspired by Fedora yet also inspired by the idea of adventure and how he might find adventure while thinking of it as doing good. Yet in 1935 and 1936 he's willing to steal objects for a museum.

Then he changes the YIJC by removing Old Indy, thereby changing the character of the stories themselves. Did he really meet Dracula or was it just a Halloween story? Did he really have that wacky adventure in Kafka's Prague, or was it just a child's introduction to the concept of the absurd?

The internal logic established by the films is supplanted by Lucas with external logic for the television series. By that token why wasn’t he having more supernatural encounters in the YIJC? And why wasn’t he meeting more famous people in the films? The films and the TV series are separate entities linked only by Indiana Jones. As a repurposing I see it as disingenuous to the more interesting character Lucas first introduced to the world in 1981.

Twenty-seven years later Lucas completes his rehabilitation of Indy by making the philanderer a family man; making things right with Marion; taking on the responsibilities of a son and a new promotion.

In 1989 he at least got to gallop off into the sunset in search of further untold adventures.

To illustrate my feeling by way of a series of cliffhangers:








With those illustrations I mean that TLC was still honouring the old serials, in spite of its divergence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoo

KOTCS moves Indy into 1957, and into a different world.

Last edited by Montana Smith : 03-18-2014 at 02:19 AM.
Montana Smith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2014, 03:07 AM   #44
Montana Smith
IndyFan
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 10,616
Indiana Jones and the Different World.

The lacklustre elements of KOTCS have already been well noted as a reason why feelings have not softened.

Combine that all round half-hearted effort with the issue of moving Indy out of his 1930s comfort zone into the atomic age that threatens to make him irrelevant.

The world is already smaller, less mysterious and less un-explored. Akator was a re-discovery, not a new discovery. The golden age is over and Colonel Spalko intends to make the world even smaller:

Quote:
Spalko: Imagine. To peer across the world and know the enemy's secrets. To place our thoughts into the minds of your leaders. Make your teachers teach the true version of history, your soldiers attack on our command. We'll be everywhere at once, more powerful than a whisper, invading your dreams, thinking your thoughts for you while you sleep. We will change you, Dr. Jones, all of you, from the inside. We will turn you into us. And the best part? You won't even know it's happening.

The world we last saw Indy in is barely recognizable:

Quote:
Dean Charles Stanforth: I barely recognize this country anymore. The government's got us seeing Communists in our soup.

KOTCS was therefore more concerned with Cold War B-movie inspirations: Communism, atom bombs, giant killer ants and the 1960s kind of flying saucers that Lucas ditched during pre-production for ROTLA.

These elements were dictated by Harrison's age, and the desire to remain faithful to both actor and character. He couldn't be anywhere but in this new 'modern' world.

And therein lies the other problem for me:

Quote:
Dean Charles Stanforth: We seem to have reached the age where life stops giving us things and starts taking them away.


Out of the forty-five serials I've watched I only noted the following with reference to KOTCS:

The Tiger Woman (1944)





The Perils of Pauline (1914)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smiffy
One scene has Pauline and Harry trapped in a basement filling with water. They climb as high as they can, while furiously beating away the rats swimming about them. Their esape involves crawling into the fireplace and waiting for the water to rise to let them up through the chimney. This is somewhat similar to the escape from Akator in KOTCS.

Darkest Africa (1936)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smiffy
The last episode has a minor Indy-ism. Two bad guys stop to gather green diamonds from the mine at Joba as a volcano is erupting. As with Mac in KOTCS, their greed prevents them from escaping...


And Stoo noted one from Spy Smasher (1942):

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoo
In 2 episodes, Spy Smasher swings on hanging lamps (as Indy does in "Doom" & "Skull")


There's nothing wrong with '50s B-movie science fiction per se, but if the film that pays homage to them isn't up to scratch then it can become a little too self-referential for the wrong reasons.

The original Indy trilogy took the best from the past and improved upon the worst to present the best possible compromise.

KOTCS unfortunately maintained too much of the worst. Hence:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiders112390
I think KOTCS feels half hearted and half baked in comparison to the original films. It almost feels unfinished or like a lot was left on the cutting room floor. You have some great, cool ideas: Spalko's telepathy, the Aliens as the teachers of humanity, the Ugha, but none of these are ever really explored to their fullest potential. Spalko never exhibits any real power and no real menace, the Aliens feel just thrown in there, Indy somehow gets redeemed at the end and the FBI no longer thinks he's a commie....it just feels very rushed. You'd think the film was the product of a first draft script rather than many rewrites.
Montana Smith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2014, 09:58 AM   #45
Raiders112390
IndyFan
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,038
Quick question for Smith:

Do you agree that if Lucas had has his own way, and Indy IV was wholly an alien film, no compromise (think Saucermen script refined), would a purer, uncompromised vision have led to a superior film, in your opinion?

Also, I do not understand why Lucas jumped right into the 50s. Mystery of the Blues was filmed in 1992, made just 3 years after LC, when Harrison was still young enough to portray an Indy in his late 30s or 40s, yet Lucas jumps his cameo in that episode to 1950, 12 years after LC. I don't think they made KOTCS take place in the '50s just to accommodate Harrison's age. That was the idea from the beginning.
Raiders112390 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2014, 10:11 AM   #46
Montana Smith
IndyFan
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 10,616
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiders112390
Quick question for Smith:

Do you agree that if Lucas had has his own way, and Indy IV was wholly an alien film, no compromise (think Saucermen script refined), would a purer, uncompromised vision have led to a superior film, in your opinion?

It's hard to tell, because so much of KOTCS was lost in the execution. I don't remember much of that script, but I think it would have been better if the aliens had been '50s aliens rather than '60s von Däniken aliens.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiders112390
Also, I do not understand why Lucas jumped right into the 50s. Mystery of the Blues was filmed in 1992, made just 3 years after LC, when Harrison was still young enough to portray an Indy in his late 30s or 40s, yet Lucas jumps his cameo in that episode to 1950, 12 years after LC. I don't think they made KOTCS take place in the '50s just to accommodate Harrison's age. That was the idea from the beginning.

In KOTCS Harrison was a 65/66 year old actor portraying a 58 year old character. I don't know how much further back in time they could reasonably have gone.

If Lucas wanted to make a fourth film he should have done it much sooner, which is a charge I'm sure many would agree with. A post-war 1940s film noir would have bridged the gap between TLC far better. Maybe once that had been established it would've been more natural to progress into the 1950s.

Choosing 1957 seems like a compromise between the golden age of Indy (1930s); the 1960s idea of the Ark being a radio designed for communication with flying saucers that he proposed for Raiders; and Harrison's age at the time when it would be filmed.
Montana Smith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2014, 11:32 AM   #47
Udvarnoky
IndyFan
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,478
It is interesting that Lucas never floated the idea of WWII Indy. The story goes that the light bulb moment was when he saw Ford in a beard for his Young Indy cameo. He was adamant that doing aliens was the only way to make another Indiana Jones with Ford work, and in fact let the project collapse when Spielberg put his foot down in 1996.

Something to bear in mind though, is that Lucas' approach would still be perfectly valid for the 1940s (Roswell being '47 and all that), and indeed a number of versions of the story (Stuart's and Nathanson's, at least) took place in 1949.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiders112390
Do you agree that if Lucas had has his own way, and Indy IV was wholly an alien film, no compromise (think Saucermen script refined), would a purer, uncompromised vision have led to a superior film, in your opinion?

I'll throw in my two cents and say: probably. We do know that by the time Independence Day came out and Spielberg said "absolutely not," Lucas felt that Jeffrey Boam had gotten the saucer-chasing concept to a point where he was happy with it. It's worth remembering that the one draft of this incarnation we have is Stuart's first draft. Lucas didn't even think Stuart's final draft was gonna do the trick, and he turned it over to Boam for another year's worth of drafts. If Lucas had a case, that's the script that would have made it, and we don't have it. However, even if Spielberg didn't abort the entire idea, there's no guarantee that he was even going to direct the film - as with Temple of Doom, he claims he was actually considering just producing that fourth adventure. So that's something else to consider - would it have been worth losing Spielberg (the Spielberg of the 90s).

I'm actually surprised it took so long for Lucas to come up with the "breakthrough" notion of going the Chariots of the Gods route and simply grounding the alien stuff with lost cities and crystal skulls (an artifact that was going to feature in a Young Indy episode that Frank Darabont would pen, which is surely a big part of how he got the gig). The concept of Indy4 was straight-up alien invasion fare before the turn of the century, although to be fair Lucas was knee-deep in the prequels at the time.

From what we do have access to, I remain 150% convinced that the Darabont draft was the one to shoot - not only is it massively superior and more fun than the script they did produce, it had Spielberg's enthusiasm.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Montana Smith
I think it would have been better if the aliens had been '50s aliens rather than '60s von Däniken aliens.

I don't think you can accuse Spielberg of doing anything less than embracing the 50s in a lot his visual choices, though. He went off-script to give us a UFO straight out of Earth Versus Flying Saucer in the ending.

Last edited by Udvarnoky : 03-18-2014 at 11:58 AM.
Udvarnoky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2014, 12:07 PM   #48
Udvarnoky
IndyFan
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,478
For anyone curious, here's what the aliens' departure was meant to look like before Spielberg decided to just go for it.

Udvarnoky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2014, 12:28 PM   #49
Montana Smith
IndyFan
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 10,616
Quote:
Originally Posted by Udvarnoky
I don't think you can accuse Spielberg of doing anything less than embracing the 50s in a lot his visual choices, though. He went off-script to give us a UFO straight out of Earth Versus Flying Saucer in the ending.

It's not Spielberg's visual choices, but Lucas' employment of von Däniken's 'ancient aliens'. Chariots of the Gods? wasn't published until 1968, in which Däniken made the hypothesis about the Nazca lines being alien landing strips.
Montana Smith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2014, 12:46 PM   #50
Udvarnoky
IndyFan
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,478
You make a great point, I just don't think that gives the movie a 60s connotation. Nothing about this movie's ideas would have been out of place for 50s audiences, since both the lost world genre and aliens were very much in vogue.

The concept of the Nazca lines being landing strips is just a cool and logical idea to incorporate into the story regardless of what decade some guy published the theory. I also have to believe that archeologists, anthropologists and good old fashion crackpots were pitching some pretty wild theories about the Nazca lines well before the 60s.

Using the Nazca lines was one of my favorite ideas in the movie. I just wish they had done more with it. As with the Roswell alien, they didn't really make an attempt to relate it much to the aliens of Akator. It's practically a red herring.
Udvarnoky is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:47 PM.