KotCS & ToD similarities

Montana Smith

Active member
Sakis said:
.. and Spielberg will make the next one as an apology for the previous one!

...and from his recent comments it looks like Shia has ruled himself out... which will leave Indy centre stage and free to be Indy-pendant.
 

Sakis

TR.N Staff Member
He did? When? Thank God. I always thought any new Indy movie should not deal with family issues again. Crusade was wonderful but it can't be recaptured.
 

Lance Quazar

Well-known member
Raiders112390 said:
I've noticed a couple of similarities between TOD and KOTCS:

Most of these are just minor coincidences that have no larger thematic, structural or narrative significance at all.

You could easily come up with dozens of false "patterns" between any number of the films -

"Raiders and "Doom" both feature scenes where Indy is not wearing his leather jacket.

"Crusade" and "Skull" both feature scenes at a train station.

"Doom" is the only film not to include a scene on a boat.

"Crusade and Skull" both feature a motorcycle chase.

And so on....

Just about the only thing significant on your list is your #4 (which you repeat with #11.)




2) Both feature non-Nazi enemies--The Thuggies in TOD and the Soviets in KOTCS.

Yes, the Russians are not Nazis, but they are basically treated in the same manner - a large sinister foreign army goes against Indy and is far more well-equipped and full of resources than he is. They hope they artifact will given them a strategic advantage over their political enemies.

Pretty similar, actually.

3) Both feature 'kid' sidekicks--Short Round in TOD, Mutt in KOTCS. Both sidekicks wear very American clothes fitting to the period--Shot Round in his yankees cap, Mutt in his leather early rock n' roller outfit.

Actually, Short Round's clothes are Chinese, except for his baseball cap. (Which is actually not a Yankee cap.) And, of course everyone in the film wears clothes "fitting to the period." 'Cept maybe the Grail Knight.

4) Both films' artifacts are non-Christian and not very well known.

Granted. But the Ark ain't Christian either.

6) Both don't start off with a separate Pre-Adventure Adventure sequence--the pre-Adventure sequences in TOD and KOTCS directly tie into and lead to the events of both films and don't exist as the final act of a previous separate adventure.

Here you're just plain wrong. ToD's prologue is absolutely a "separate adventure." Different story, different quest/macguffin, different location and even an entirely different antagonist (whereas Raiders used the prologue to introduce Belloq.)

The only thing different from "Raiders" and "Crusade" is that the opening happens to lead chronologically and geographically into the rest of the film. But it's a completely separate sequence.

KOTCS is actually the one that breaks the pattern set by the first films, as it introduces the story and villains which carry over into the rest of the movie.

7) Both feature improbable or impossible actions and/or stunts--In TOD the parachute landing, the heart being ripped out of a man's chest and him staying alive, the mine cart jump, the straw bridge; In KOTCS, the nuclear scene as well as Mutt's vine swinging.

The raft landing is not impossible. The mine jump is extremely unlikely, but it's the only moment like that in the film.

The heart rip is a supernatural element - all of the films have them.

KOTCS' action sequences, IMHO, go way too far in an unrealistic and cartoonish direction that the earlier films (esp. Raiders and Doom) didn't.

8) Both feature very limited to no gun play--There is only minor gun play in TOD as compared to Raiders, and no gunplay in KOTCS as compared to the limited gunplay in LC. Both feature limited whip-work, and in both cases the whip work is limited to swinging, not used offensively.

There's actually very little gunplay in any of the films. I can think of only two instances in Raiders (I'm sure there are a few more) where Indy shoots anyone.

In "Doom", he loses his gun, but that's after shooting it quite a bit (with confirmed kills) in the opening chase.

In "Crusade" he only kills the one Nazi with his own machine gun.

And nothing, IRRC, in "Skull."

The movie with the LEAST whipwork is "Crusade" where it is used only twice and never offensively.

Indy DOES use the whip in "Doom" during a fight.

9) Both feature explorations in a dark, cobwebbed and eerie chamber of bodies--the first parts of the temple in TOD with the dead bodies and the graveyard in KOTCS.

Plenty of bodies and cobwebs in both the Peruvian Temple and Well of Souls in "Raiders."

11) Both are negative powers (Voodoo and Psychic power used to control and enslave one's enemy, whereas the Ark could be used to grant it's user's allies power beyond imagination and the Grail could heal and immortalize anyone who drank or was touched by it's water--More positive power).

The Ark's power, as described and demonstrated in the film, lies in its ability to destroy the enemies of its possessor. That's pretty damned negative.

The powers of the stones and skull were pretty ill-defined. However, the stones were created to "combat evil", which sounds pretty positive to me.

The Grail is the only outwardly "positive" artifact in the bunch (which explains why the Nazis interest in it was pretty much glossed over and not explained in the film.)
 

Montana Smith

Active member
You make some good points, as always, Lance. There's no denying that you can find connections/similarities between different movies if you look for them.

Yet, the over-riding factor, for me at least, is that both TOD and KOTCS have a different feel to them, compared with ROTLA and LC. It's not a bad thing, as the difference creates a broader canvass.

TOD was a product of Lucas and Spielberg's personal situations at the time, which both admitted made for a darker, different style of movie. KOTCS is the product of many more years of planning, factoring in the increased ages of the characters.
 

-ND-

New member
Both Kingdom and Temple feature 2 posters that were used for theaters or for home release. Both have one of Indy standing solo with whip in hand, and the other shows all character's faces with Indy's being the biggest.

lgpp31423+the-kingdom-of-the-crystal-skull-harrison-ford-as-indiana-jones-poster.jpg


Indiana-Jones-and-The-Temple-of-Doom-Poster-C13019454.jpeg


indy4-poster-final-big.jpg


01-08-indiana-jones-and-the-temple-of-doom.jpg


Also, both films have "bugs." Temple(insects/centipedes) Kingdom(scorpions/ants)
 

Mr Jones

New member
-ND- said:
Both Kingdom and Temple feature 2 posters that were used for theaters or for home release. Both have one of Indy standing solo with whip in hand, and the other shows all character's faces with Indy's being the biggest.

lgpp31423+the-kingdom-of-the-crystal-skull-harrison-ford-as-indiana-jones-poster.jpg


Indiana-Jones-and-The-Temple-of-Doom-Poster-C13019454.jpeg


indy4-poster-final-big.jpg


01-08-indiana-jones-and-the-temple-of-doom.jpg


Also, both films have "bugs." Temple(insects/centipedes) Kingdom(scorpions/ants)

Those are perfect similarities -ND- (y)
 

Cole

New member
Agent Spalko said:
Nah, more like Scarface to Free Willy.
Not even close.

'Crystal Skull' is still rated PG-13......wouldn't exactly call it a "kiddie" movie.

And 'Temple of Doom' isn't exactly a strictly "adult" movie. While it has darker elements, it also has plenty of comedic moments and a lighter tone to compensate. Most of us here grew up on it and still love it today.
 

Wilhelm

Member
Both films end with Indy kissing the girl with a young sidekick watching (Shorty / Mutt) and a final gag with an iconic element (Whip / Hat).
 

mister64

New member
Lance Quazar said:
There's actually very little gunplay in any of the films. I can think of only two instances in Raiders (I'm sure there are a few more) where Indy shoots anyone.

In "Doom", he loses his gun, but that's after shooting it quite a bit (with confirmed kills) in the opening chase.

In "Crusade" he only kills the one Nazi with his own machine gun.

And nothing, IRRC, in "Skull."

Don't forget the scene on the tank in TLC where Indy shoots one soldier and ends up killing 3 with the same shot.
 

James

Well-known member
mister64 said:
Don't forget the scene on the tank in TLC where Indy shoots one soldier and ends up killing 3 with the same shot.

If I'm not mistaken, he also wields a gun while flying the biplane (in addition to Henry Sr. manning the turret).

It's interesting that in all three examples- as with the majority of the gunplay in the films- it's primarily used to set up a gag.
 

Cole

New member
And Indy's most famous use of the gun - in 'Raiders of the Lost Ark' - where he shoots the swordsman in Cairo, was improvised by Ford on set; a now-well-known story.

At least Indy's gun does make an appearance in 'Crystal Skull.' He pulls it out on one of the natives in the graveyard scene, which is one of the best bits of the film. "You're a.....teacher?" "Part-time."

I'm sure the fact that Indy never relies heavily on his gun is no accident, as they want to focus on adventure and Indy's improvisation rather than gun battles.
 

Darth Vile

New member
Cole said:
And Indy's most famous use of the gun - in 'Raiders of the Lost Ark' - where he shoots the swordsman in Cairo, was improvised by Ford on set; a now-well-known story.

At least Indy's gun does make an appearance in 'Crystal Skull.' He pulls it out on one of the natives in the graveyard scene, which is one of the best bits of the film. "You're a.....teacher?" "Part-time."

I'm sure the fact that Indy never relies heavily on his gun is no accident, as they want to focus on adventure and Indy's improvisation rather than gun battles.

He did more so with Raiders... but Spielberg/Lucas seem to consciously veer away from that in TOD (where his gun is lost in the first few minutes).
 
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