Hellboy
- Thread starter Doc Savage
- Start date
Montana Smith said:On a serious note, though, the comic versions of Indy got pretty wild, especially the Marvel 'Further Adventures' - I can see him teaming up with the Ron Perlman version of Hellboy, and all the time, when they're not falling through holes in the ground, they'd be trying to out-quip each other.
An actual film crossover would be a lot of fun, I think.
Montana Smith
Active member
pellman said:
Okay, then, here's the plot:
Pre-title sequence: Indy and Mutt investigate an ancient subterranean temple and discover Alien eggs. Mutt gets face-hugged.
Rest of movie: Mutt gives birth to a chest-burster carrying Jones genes, so the Alien will be particularly hard to kill!
Indy quips, "Aliens. I've seen these guys before."
A Predator comes to earth to hunt earth's toughest prey: Hellboy.
Indy and Hellboy team up to defeat both Alien and Predator.
We'll have to fit in an homage to the flying fridge somewhere, though!
That's a film I wouldn't mind seeing.
DocWhiskey
Well-known member
Montana, I'd like to buy that story from for $4500.
We could makes big moneys I tells ya!
We could makes big moneys I tells ya!
Lance Quazar
Well-known member
If Indy existed in the Hellboy universe, there's no way Professor Bruttenholm would have been picked to run the BPRD. It would have been Indy all the way!!!
Lance Quazar
Well-known member
Montana Smith said:
In most cases, I think the alterations Del Toro made were improvements over the (often spare) source material. For the most part, the changes gave the characters more resonance - Being hidden from the world gave Hellboy a sense of isolation which made the character more sympathetic. Hellboy's love of Liz was the emotional core of the story. Etc.
Montana Smith
Active member
DocWhiskey said:
LOL! Was that $4500 or $45.00?
Lance Quazar said:
That would be interesting, except that Indy is a perpetual skeptic, regardless of how many odd things he witnesses! Best to have him as a field agent, as 'Broom' was after he quit the directorship in 1958. 'Broom' didn't like being trapped in administration, same as Indy likes to get out of the classroom once in a while (or as frequently as possible!)
Lance Quazar said:
I think Del Toro was faced with the problem of presenting a character that a lot of people hadn't previously encountered. He had to condense the characters and their relationships, and also put Hellboy and Abe back into the shadows, otherwise he might be drawn into explaining how the world accepts these strange beings.
Hellboy and Liz always feel themselves outsiders: Hellboy because he's trapped in a demonic body that scares people off (which is why he files down the horns), whilst at heart he's very human in character; Liz because she's tormented by her tragic past (her uncontrolled fires that killed 32 people including her family). Bringing Hellboy and Liz closer together for the film does go some way to expressing 'the emotional core', as you write.
I think Del Toro did the best he could in bringing about a live-action Hellboy movie. And Indy would fit better into Del Toro's vision, than he would into Mignola's.
Lance Quazar
Well-known member
Montana Smith said:LOL! Was that $4500 or $45.00?
That would be interesting, except that Indy is a perpetual skeptic, regardless of how many odd things he witnesses! Best to have him as a field agent, as 'Broom' was after he quit the directorship in 1958. 'Broom' didn't like being trapped in administration, same as Indy likes to get out of the classroom once in a while (or as frequently as possible!)
I don't think Indy is a "perpetual skeptic", as you point out. Yes, even in the time of "last crusade", Indy expresses some healthy skepticism about the existence of the Grail even after having witnessed demonstrably supernatural events in ToD and RotLA.
However - and I am loath to use KotCS to support ANY argument...but, as much as I hated 99% of that film, there is one very good line where Indy says "Oh, I believe. That's why I'm standing over here," or some such thing.
In a world where the supernatural actually does exist and after you've experienced it several times, being too skeptical just comes across as being foolish.
Though I do enjoy the Hellboy comics, I really think Del Toro did a lot to humanize the characters, which are pretty one-note in the early HB comics. A more literal translation would have been quite flat from a dramatic stand point.
(though part of me wishes Del Toro went further and ditched the maddeningly opaque "Ogru Jahad" as the macguffin/baddies in HB1 for something more accessible.)
I agree! The HB movie universe isn't quite as vast and outlandish as the comic-verse. Though HB2 definitely brought it several steps in that direction.
I actually prefer some of the BPRD titles, as Hellboy (in the comics) isn't a particularly compelling character for me. I've especially enjoyed "1946" and am in the middle of "1947".
Montana Smith
Active member
Lance Quazar said:
Indy appears skeptical about each new event - the Ark, the Grail, for example - like he's applying his scientific archaeological training, rather than accepting mythology. I think this is a device to create wonder in the eyes of the audience through Indy's eyes. The same thing happns in Del Toro's Hellboy, as the public is unaware of the strange creatures existing alongside them, so that when they do appear, it comes as a shock to them. If the supernatural is common place and everywhere, it no longer bvecomes supernatural, but purely a natural occurence.
The Hellboy comics and novels are different to the movie. A lot of the story-telling in the comic version is through Mignola's understated, almost simplistic, artwork - the dark, brooding shadows that can express the loneliness of the characters. Whiolst Del Toro produced a very action-oriented story, a lot of the comic stories are dreamlike fairytales - something that would have turned Del Toro's Hellboy into an art movie instead of a blockbuster. I like both visions, as I really do buy into the sympathic nature of Hellboy as a character, and of Abe, who's really a gentle, thoughtful creature. Hellboy disguises his own concerns behind his stern visage, and is often not looking for a fight, but when a fight does find him, his rage boils over!
Lance Quazar
Well-known member
Montana Smith said:
Oh, I concur. As a dramatic device, those skeptical elements are essential. Del Toro created the character of Agent Myers specifically to be the eyes of the audience during the introduction to Hellboy's world in the first film.
The transparency of that device became even more apparent when the character was unceremoniously tossed out for the second film.
And Indy's skepticism has the same function - creates a sense of wonder, uncertainty and discovery for the character as well as the audience once the magical is finally revealed.
However, since Indy is the same character in a film series, it becomes a little redundant when he has virtually the same arc in the first three films.
Now, as a good academic, even after experiencing the power of the Ark, Indy certainly isn't going to take every bit of "mythology at face value", but I'm glad at least that he was more open to the possibilities in KotCS after, presumably, a lifetime marked by brushes with the supernatural.
Montana Smith
Active member
Lance Quazar said:
Hellboy 'outs' himself in Golden Army, which was cool, bringing himself into the public eye, getting closer to the comic.
Lance Quazar said:
Yes, after 45 years of 'reclaiming' artifacts and encountering paranormal events, Indy is finally trusting his intuition, rather than following the scientific, empirical route to discovery! He was brought in to examine the Roswell alien in 1947, so he had already seen evidence to support his acceptance of the possibilities in KOTCS. So, it appears that Indy is already a government advisor on supernatural occurences - and a perfect candidate for the BPRD...
Lance Quazar
Well-known member
Montana Smith said:Yes, after 45 years of 'reclaiming' artifacts and encountering paranormal events, Indy is finally trusting his intuition, rather than following the scientific, empirical route to discovery! He was brought in to examine the Roswell alien in 1947, so he had already seen evidence to support his acceptance of the possibilities in KOTCS. So, it appears that Indy is already a government advisor on supernatural occurences - and a perfect candidate for the BPRD...
But the BPRD was founded by Roosevelt during the war. By that time, Indy had already been hired by the government to find the Ark. Even if he did no other government jobs, that still would have put him at the top of the list, even ahead of Professor Broom, who was simply a youthful academic at that point.
Montana Smith
Active member
Lance Quazar said:
But we wouldn't want to see him stuck behind a desk at the BPRD, though. That wouldn't be much fun. Even Broom wanted to get back into the field, and as Indy said, you've got to get out of the classroom. Broom was a paranormal investigator, whereas Indy was an archaeologist who happened to discover the paranormal.
Here's a brief history of how the BPRD came to be, as it appears in Mignola's comics:
The British Paranormal Society (BPS) was founded in 1877 by a group of Oxford researchers. As of 1944 Professor Trevor Bruttenholm (born 1910), Lady Cynthia Eden-Jones, and Dr. Malcolm Frost were the three leading members. (An Oxford connection for Henry Jones Sr. and Marcus Brody?)
Late in 1944 one of the leading members of the the BPS sensed something dark building, and their investigations determined that the Nazis were planning an occult ritual intended to turn the tide of the war. Their attempts to convince the Allied Forces met with skepticism, until an American special agent came forward with corroborating evidence.
The ritual's centre was in East Bromwich, north of Birmingham, England. Backed up by a platoon of US Army Rangers, Bruttenholm, Lady Eden-Jones and Dr. Frost set up camp in a ruined church outside of East Bromwich. Bruttenholm had spent almost a decade investigating this site, and its terrible past that locals would not speak of.
The Nazi ritual , however, took place not at the church but in an ancient stone circle on Tarmagant Island, off the Scottish coast. BPRD agents didn't learn of this Project Ragna Rok until 1948, but the effects were immediately apparent. A demon-child materialized in flames at East Bromwich, not on Tarmagant. He was promptly called 'Hellboy'.
Bruttenholm immediately began lobbying for the creation of the Bureau of Paranormal Research and Defense. With dozens of witnesses, and Hellboy himself as evidence, the Allied powers quickly agreed. Funded by the US and the UK, the BPRD came into formal existence in 1945, after the war had ended. It was first set up at an Army Air Force base in New Mexico, close to those who were working on the atomic bomb. Bruttenholm was its first director, but gave up the administrative post in 1958 to return to investigating.