Hearts and Minds ? The War on Terror

monkey said:

I also find it interesting that you mention Nanking when you ask about Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Are you one of those people who think that it's OK sometimes to murder innocent non combatants, as long as it's the "good guys" doing the murdering??

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No, but I found it interesting that you only mentioned war crimes committed by the Allied powers. For example:

monkey said:

If anyone is to speak of "War Crimes" then they must speak about Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Tokyo, Dresden, Hamburg....These things are often forgotten in discussions of "War Crimes".

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I feel that the Rape of Nanking and other atrocities committed by the Japanese are often forgotten. Worse still the Japanese Government constantly denies or minimizes these crimes, and until now, it has not made any formal apology for its aggressions and crimes against China and other Asian nations.

The Japanese refused to surrender until the two bombs were dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Hiroshima was a city of considerable military significance, and Nagasaki was of great wartime importance because of its wide-ranging industrial activity, including the production of ordnance, ships, military equipment, and other war materials.

I feel that the decision to drop the A-bombs should have been thought about more carefully, however in the time of a crisis or War, I don't know how realistic or effective thinking about it for a couple months really is. Things move to fast to make long decisions. War is an act of decisions and in order to be successful you must overcome the bad ones. Hiroshima and Nagasaki might not have been the best decisions the United States has ever made but in reality, the war was ended quickly and that was the major goal. I don't know what to believe, as there are good arguments presented by both sides. The fact that we dropped the bomb is a decision that we will have to live with forever and because it ended the war, I believe that it was the best decision for the time.

The use of nuclear weapons to end World War II quickly and decisively averted the death or maiming of hundreds of thousands American soldiers, sailors, marines and airmen. It also saved the lives of some 400,000 Allied prisoners of war and civilian detainees in Japanese hands, all of whom were to be executed in the event of an American invasion of Japan. Above all, it saved untold hundreds of thousands more Japanese-perhaps millions-from becoming casualties of pre-invasion bombing and shelling, followed by two invasions and forcible occupation.

The alternative choice to the atomic bomb would be to continue relentless invasions upon Japan and its surrounding islands. While this was, in fact, weakening the Japanese, it was also taking tremendous amounts of American manpower, and in turn causing extreme amounts of Allied troops? death.

Baloney! Japan and Germany started the war. I admit that I have little sympathy for the Japanese, after what they did (e.g. killing non-combatants).

Vaxer, I?m tired of this campaign of yours against Temple of John. Obviously you were away from the Raven when Jay was provoking anyone he could. Furthermore Jay, I couldn?t care less if the University of New Orleans is annoyed.

Indy Anna said:

Baloney! Japan and Germany started the war. I admit that I have little sympathy for the Japanese, after what they did (e.g. killing non-combatants).

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First off, Japan and Germany did NOT start the war.

Second .....IndyAnna you are so ..........so typical, and predictable. i.e. Japan and Germany were EVIL, and so therefore it was OK to murder Japanese and German women children and non combatants.......... Heck! even AFTER the war was OVER. After all, they DESRERVED it!!! The Allies were the "Good Guys" fighting the "Good War". Right?!

My recommendation: Read some history books...........some that weren't spoonfed to you.

Hey IndyAnna.........do you have sympathy for the 3rd generation Hiroshima victim suffering from Lukemia? Probably not since they are EVIL too aren't they. After all they are the descendants of those EVIL JAPS!!

And let all German children in year 2005 bow their heads low in supplication at the Holocaust memorial in Berlin for the supposed crimes of their ancestors twice removed. The Jews were the ONLY victims of World War II right?? That's what you've been spoonfed so that's all you know.

monkey said:

First off, Japan and Germany did NOT start the war.

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Next you will be saying that Himmler wasn?t a Nazi.

monkey said:

Second .....IndyAnna you are so ..........so typical, and predictable. i.e. Japan and Germany were EVIL, and so therefore it was OK to murder Japanese and German women children and non combatants.......... Heck! even AFTER the war was OVER. After all, they DESRERVED it!!! The Allies were the "Good Guys" fighting the "Good War". Right?!

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What Germany and Japan did was EVIL, especially when they murdered women, children and non-combatants. Furthermore I believe that the Allies were the ?Good Guys? fighting the ?Good War? with many soldiers making the ultimate sacrifice for our freedom.

monkey said:

My recommendation: Read some history books...........some that weren't spoonfed to you.

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Here?s a tip: Don?t believe everything you read, especially history books that were re-written by the Japanese.

monkey said:

Hey IndyAnna.........do you have sympathy for the 3rd generation Hiroshima victim suffering from Lukemia? Probably not since they are EVIL too aren't they. After all they are the descendants of those EVIL JAPS!!

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I have sympathy for the many victims of World War 2 ? e.g. victims of the Coventry and London Blitzes, Nanking massacre, the Jews and others that the Nazis considered inferior, and POWs who had the heads chopped off by the Japanese soldiers of war.

monkey said:

And let all German children in year 2005 bow their heads low in supplication at the Holocaust memorial in Berlin for the supposed crimes of their ancestors twice removed.

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And should all American children in year 2005 bow their heads low in supplication for what the Allies did to Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Tokyo, Dresden, Hamburg etc?

monkey said:

The Jews were the ONLY victims of World War II right?? That's what you've been spoonfed so that's all you know.

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The Jews were not the ONLY victims of the Nazis during the Holocaust - 5 million others (e.g. homosexuals, Slavs and political prisoners) were systematically killed and more than 10 million people were put in slavery.

The United States of America has set more people free than any other country in the history of mankind. We all know about World War II ( I won't even comment on something as ridiculous as Monkey's recent posts) but here's what's happened recently:
-In Eastern Europe, the policies of Ronald Reagan led to the freeing of at least 122 million people from Soviet domination.
-More than 48 million South Koreans remain free because of American protection.
-Nearly 23 million Taiwanese remain free because of American protection.
Japan has flourished since WW2.
-The state of Israel and five and a half million Jews would be crushed by its enemies if not for American aid.
-By removing the brutal regimes in Iraq and Afghanistan, America and Britain have given almost 50 million people at least a shot at some kind of self-determination. Also, the American-driven campaign against the butcher Milosovic in the Balkans saved the lives of hundreds of thousands of people, most of them Muslims.
-America is sending $3 billion a year to Africa to combat the AIDS epidemic. By comparison Germany and France a paltry $60 million.And these countries have the nerve to portray America as a villain? How many human beings have Germany or France freed over the past 60 years?

The truth is that America is a great country striving to protect itself in an ungrateful and dangerous world. We, the people, have sacrificed blood and money so others could have a chance in life. Monkey, if you and Jay are convinced we are an evil nation,that is your opinion. You can hold all of the "America is Bad"/neo-nazi ralleys you want. You can argue politics and even say that the American people are "murderers",that is your right. But you should be ashamed that you are so ignorant . And ignorance, you see, is most often a contagious disease. Don't spread this disease at an Indiana Jones website.

actually, germany and japan *did* start the war.

"What Germany and Japan did was EVIL, especially when they murdered women, children and non-combatants."

what you did in the same war too. for example in hiroshima and dresden. and the air raid on dresden was a war crime as you (the USA) knew the war was over and the only people you'd kill in dresden were civilians. if hope you know this when you begin dividing the world into good and evil.

"Here?s a tip: Don?t believe everything you read, especially history books that were re-written by the Japanese."

most history books were rather rewritten by the winners of WWII.

"I have sympathy for the many victims of World War 2 ? e.g. victims of the Coventry and London Blitzes, Nanking massacre, the Jews and others that the Nazis considered inferior, and POWs who had the heads chopped off by the Japanese soldiers of war."

or the people who starved and froze to death in russia (your allies), the people who died in allied interrogation camps,... do you seriously beliefe that the allied party stayed clean in this war and all the bad stuff was done by the axis?

"And should all American children in year 2005 bow their heads low in supplication for what the Allies did to Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Tokyo, Dresden, Hamburg etc?"

no. but in fact, it is very unusual that somebody openly critizises the USA. while at our school, our students are taught the the marshall plan was a present, that the nice USA freed us from hitler almost without any civilian casualties, while school does NOT tell us how versailles left us after WWI,... in the USA many people don't even know WWII is over, hitler is dead and there is a new germany. and those who know don't accept it. did you know how many students who travel to england or the USA get beaten off in the streets when they admit they are from germany? i've seen it. nobody beats off americans or britons here. we are past taking WWII personal any longer. you aren't. Ariel Sharon recently said that we (my generation) were still responsible for the holocaust. huh? i am responsible? why? israel isn't responsible for killing and provoking palestinians TODAY and we are responsible for what our great-grandparents did? i am not the one who brought the topic "nazis" here - i was the one who was called a nazi because i'm from germany. so don't complain that WE would blame YOU for the past. in 99% of all cases, YOU like to blame US for WWII. i can't discuss with roundshort for example without him mentioning that i killed jews, am a nazi from germany and that great america kicked our asses. he wasn't born then, i wasn't born then, HE didn't kick MY ass and if we'd meet in person, he surely wouldn't, but it seems to be a pleasure for most americans who can't be proud of what they do in the present, to remember what their ancestors did in the past. perhaps they don't remember it 100% the way it happened, but this way it even feels much better, doesn't it?

or is ANYTHING of what i've just said wrong, huh?

"The Jews were not the ONLY victims of the Nazis during the Holocaust - 5 million others (e.g. homosexuals, Slavs and political prisoners) were systematically killed and more than 10 million people were put in slavery."

never thought an american would blame a foreigner for slavery. or for killing political prisoners. or homosexuals. did you forget your own past? slavery, political prisoners (possible communists that disappeared for being "unamerican"), ...

did you know (by the way) that the jews fled from germany to the USA and the USA refused to let them in? as well as all the other allied countries? how clean, how good. the good USA vs. the evil germany. that's what WWII was like. if we hadn't been there, we could assume it is a myth. but your history books wouldn't lie, would they? or the many war movies about WWII...

I love America San. That's why I served its military for two decades. And I'm far from ignorant. In fact it has been through extensive research that I have learned of so many truths that were denied and/or hidden by the standard US History education.

I am not condemning America as Evil. America's ideals are of the highest order, and committed to the elevation of humanity to achieve its highest potential.

That said, America does not always follow its ideals.

Anyway, my point in these posts is to open the eyes of the "ignorant" as you use the term. When I study such things as the Dresden firebombings...the deliberate murder of hundreds of thousands of innocent people.... I am amazed when people will say things like "they started the war, they deserved it", or "we had to do it to win the war". Guess what? By saying that then you allow the enemy to do the SAME thing with impunity. Don't you see it? What if the Germans had had the potential in 1945 to carry out a raid on New York with as much damage as the British and Americans did at Dresden? Would that have been OK? After all, from their side they are just doing it to win the war right?

My point is that it is ALWAYS a crime to incinerate women and children and non-combatants. Whether this is at Auschwitz, or Dresden, or Tokyo, or Coventry. Don't you see it??? When you excuse SOME war crimes you must excuse them all. German children didn't start the war, and Japanese children didn't chop off POW's heads. It's not OK to incinerate them in firebombing raids, or nuclear attacks. They didn't DESERVE it.

But I can see that my dissenting views are not welcome here in this supposed free exchange of ideas forum. Han Solo has given me my marching orders so I guess I'll goose step out of here.

Later

" If the Unites States is so horrible than move to North Korea."

no need to do so. germany, in many (most) ways is the better place to live, although you'd never admit it. at least, unlike you (as i've already said some time ago):
- we have a real democracy (referring to the first bush election)
- we don't waste the environment (referring to the kyoto protocol)
- we didn't break international law for 60 years (e.g. referring to the attack on Iraq against the decision of the UNO)
- we didn't deliberately kill foreign civilians for 60 years (referring to the use of cluster bombs)
- we regularly pay our organizations (UNO, NATO and EU)
- our government isn't sponsored by the oil industry
- we didn't pretend to search for non-existant weapons of mass destruction
- we didn't feed the ideas of terrorists
- our taxes don't mostly pay our military equipment as...:
- our social security can give everybody the basis for a rather pleasant life without many worries (for example cinema tickets, a radio, clothes from rather expensive brands (e.g. Nike, Adidas),... for people who are unemployed and can't pay it)
- we don't have the death penalty (and therefore no innocent victims of it) and yet..:
- we have a much lower crime rate than the USA
- our people are much more critical about the national instances (referring to some dubious activities of the CIA for example that would have led to a national revolt if it had happened in our country)
- our laws are harder but our law enforcement is more careful than yours. for example, we keep people from buying guns. you allow them to buy guns and put them on an electric chair when they use them. germany usually prefers to prevent crimes instead of taking revenge afterwars. the same structure can be seen in our and your approach to the problem of terrorism.
...

there is probably much more to say , some of these points are more significant than others. but i hope i was able to show you that america is not the perfect place to be. it is very meaningful, when you compare the USA to north korea - woa. what a competitor. "a big mac is the perfect food and if you disagree, try eating leafs and worms". the fact that there are many countries where people lead much worse lives doesn't make your country the best place on earth. sorry if this stains your national pride and i'm waiting for the first one who tells me that i'm a nazi for seeing the advantages of living in germany. roundshort perhaps. or ToJ. hmmmm...?

I want to say thanks to Monkey and Vaxer for their posts in this thread. I'd just about given up on the Raven.

Jay R. Zay said:

what you did in the same war too. for example in hiroshima and dresden. and the air raid on dresden was a war crime as you (the USA) knew the war was over and the only people you'd kill in dresden were civilians. I hope you know this when you begin dividing the world into good and evil...

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What about the USA not supplying running water to every family in Africa, or the USA not putting a stop to bull-fighting in Spain, and allowing penguins to die in Antarctica?

The USA was wrong to fight Germany like it did. They should have asked Hitler to fight on an open field (like in Braveheart) so that no civilians would be killed (soldiers don?t mind dying for a good cause). Or better still wait for Jay R. Zay to be born so that he could make the best decisions.

"The USA was wrong to fight Germany like it did. They should have asked Hitler to fight on an open field (like in Braveheart) so that no civilians would be killed (soldiers don?t mind dying for a good cause). Or better still wait for Jay R. Zay to be born so that he could make the best decisions."

no way. bombing a city full of civilians in the last days of war, just out of revenge, is okay. how could somebody complain?

vogel, your reply is ridiculous. the first part of it is so ridiculous it is hardly worth reading. nobody in this whole forum is as immature as you are.

PERHAPS there is a little difference between killing civilans and this "What about the USA not supplying running water to every family in Africa, or the USA not putting a stop to bull-fighting in Spain, and allowing penguins to die in Antarctica?" - ****? i mean, of course, if you find it funny or usual to kill civilians, why do you dislike hitler then? sorry germany didn't protect the penguins between 1933 and 1945. we just killed the jews and some other people. nothing spectacular, wouldn't you agree? no country is perfect. the USA killed a few german people in dresden at the end of WWII and a few japs in hiroshima and nagasaki, and we killed a few jews, frenchmen and other guys... **** happens. no reason to make such a big deal out of a few million bodies, right? of a little nuclear bomb in japan, of a little air raid on an unarmed city - who would say killing unarmed civilians is a war crime? or who would say that a war crime is such a big thing? a little war crime here, a little war crime there - as far as Vogel is concerned, we shouldn't take it so personally.

take your time, vogel, and when you are ready you can take part in the discussions of the grown up people. okay?

Indy Anna said:

Vaxer, I?m tired of this campaign of yours against Temple of John. Obviously you were away from the Raven when Jay was provoking anyone he could.

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I?m not campaigning against anyone. I try to interfere when someone crosses the line, and trust me that line is very hard to define. For me provocation is ok as long as it?s not senseless and not too personal, it?s meant to prompt reaction. I know it?s unfair but the tricky part is the reaction. Now there are two ways of replying to such a thing: or you expose your points and actually try to demonstrate something, or you break upon yourself because you?ve been tried on your beliefs and want the committer to pay for your hurt feelings; this often results in insults. As far as this goes, nobody is fully culpable or innocent, but calling anyone ignorant for having a different knowledge of history doesn?t get us anywhere. Calling someone a Nazi for that same reason is childish and not to be taken lightly.

It takes some self-control the temperate a reply, but that?s life, people will hardly ever take what you say for granted and always try to push you off the cliff. This is my way of seeing things and you probably disagree with it, but I hardly see how we can have a serious discussion about terrorism without considering that everyone is responsible for what they say regardless to what or who provoked it. Provoking is hard but not wrong, replying with insults is.

We come from places with very different cultures and ways to consider our countries. We are also all informed with biased media and the bias takes opposite directions. So it?s very easy for one another too attack each other on things. The sad truth is that our countries all serve their own purpose and none is as good or as bad as they look. It?s hard to get out of the mold our governments want to put us in, and to get passed what they want to make us believe; some people are just very good at blindly diving in.

I not trying to give anyone lesson, it?s just the point of view I follow.

All you all, need to find me a perfect friggin' country then, where in the world is a country where all of it's citizens are healthy, happy, and pure? what country solves all the other problems in the wrold, without being over bearing? Please let me know where on this planet is so perfect?

I have traveled more than the average person, in a big way there are countires who put in jail or worse for defacing the currancy, etc. etc. etc.

Ya'll are so smart and so good at pointing out what people do wrong, please tell me who is perfect, I might move who knows?

I have to quote a person I have had dinner with a few times, he is a wine maker at a classified growth in Bordeaux, his family has been wine makers for generations, and are French as the day is long. One night at dinner we were talking about being American in France and all over Europe. My group was saying how they have never been mistreated in France, of many other countiries. and this gentleman, who is in the wine world very, very famous said this:

"As long as Germany and England have citizens who travel, America will never be the most hated coutry in the world, do not be so hard on yourselves, the good your country has done, continues to do, and will do far exceedes the bad your country has done, is doing and will do!"

This is as close to the truth as I have ever heard. We are not perfect, but America can not colonize, we haven't and won't (we might have "stolen" soem land from Mexico . . . and the whole native American thing, but that was more England and France and Spanish) add states to our nation.

France is untouchable, their wine is too important (ot to meantion cheese and food in generel)
Spain and Italy wine is great and the women are too beautiful to begrudge them.

So please make a whole long list of all the good vs. all the evil and tell me what nation is perfect and has been perfect since the nation has begun.

One ponit about Japan, dont even go talk abotu killing the innocents there.

Do your research on the war crimes they pulled on the Marines, the Navy, and the Army. They made (forced) the civilians on Pelau to leap to their death rather than be captured by the Marines, because they did not want the civilans to see how humainly we treated our prisoners.

google the Bataan death march to see exactly how raw these cold blooded murders were. I have stories that will keep you from having kids if you knew exactly what they did.

While I am against the use of Atomic devices, I do believe that the use of the A-bombs saved many many lives to end a tragedy that would not have ended for many years. The Japanese did not believe in surrender, we had kill rates of 95% on the island campaigns all over the Pacific, this was a mind set that is alone in Asia, esp. South East Asia. For once we did the right thing.

But before you jump into the US violates human rights, look into exactly what happened to German and Japanese Prisoners towards the end of the WWII, it will make you very, very sick

(EDIT: all of this is referring to vaxer's statement. i don't feel like going over this issue of war crimes with roundshort again. something like "we had a right to commit war crimes as the others did so, too, we still are the good ones")

in this context i should mention that what i say is mostly NOT the official version our government and local media distribute. most of my knowledge is gathered from independent sources as the nazi history still is a very sensitive subject and neither politicians nor the media want to be connected with right wing views. the official version still is strongly influenced by the american (/allied) views and the views of modern israel. i remember that one of our politicians had to resign after publicly and loudly critizising the way israel deals with palestine. therefore what i say is not a matter of biased media as the media is rather biased in a pro-american way. yet there is no point in arguing about historical *facts* or facts like international law. i'm not trying (and have never been) to defend what my country did 1933-1945. it's a very dirty chapter and it should never have happened. in many ways, i would see myself as a supporter of the moderate left wing. BUT: germany isn't the only country that did awful things before and during WWII. history is written by the winners and we should look at it this way. it was good that america joined WWII and helped to defeat germany. but america didn't fight this war so clean and good as some people seem to believe and dresden, nagasaki and hiroshima are good examples for this. what we have to be after is truth. i'm not defending the pro-german position but i'm not defending the pro-american position, either. i look at the facts. facts is all there is and you can't argue about them.

i think it is rather provoking to ignore facts or taking things personal after 60 years. it is childish to be proud of what the USA did then. first of all, it wasn't THIS great and clean at all, secondly you should be proud of what *you* did, not of what people did before you. i'm not ashamed of my country's past either. there are many people in germany who blame our grandparents for not revolting against hitler. i use to say: would you? it's always easy for those who are born later to know what's right and wrong. but 60 years ago, all this what we are talking about, was real. would i have publicly protested against hitler? probably not. hitler was elected and most germans didn't protest, not even when the bombs started falling on our cities. how can it be that these people didn't protest and today, everybody behaves as if they would have protested immediately? let's face it: most of us wouldn't have protested against hitler during WWII either. and: most of you wouldn't have either, if you had been german. when the germans voted for hitler, hitler seemed to be the best choice. he promised jobs, education, etc. and in the first years it seemed as if he was the only one who could let germany resurrect from versailles. so they followed him. and most people would have done the same in this situation. and very few would have the courage of protesting. especially not you, Vogel, the first one who retreats when things go bad. backstabbing is all you can do, you would have been the perfect nazi. a follower of the strong.

so i don't blame my grandparents. i hope we've learned our lesson and we should all be happy that we aren't the ones who are held responsible now. blaming those who *are* is a sign of weakness. blaming people like me who have nothing to do with it at all is simply ridiculous. i hope this is understood now.

for those who believe they are immune against nazism and who believe they would have done things sooo much better if they could have, there is a movie called "the wave". i assume that everybody who loves to blame germany (for example roundshort) hasn't watched it, so i'll give a link.

http://www.geocities.com/Broadway/3145/wave.html

this is not a defence, again this is a fact. viewing a problem from every possible position is the only way of understanding it. the reason why so many of our discussions lead nowhere is that many people refuse to accept views that might contradict their old ones.

I always hated the whole "Hearts and Mind" thing anyhow. War is not about that, it is about acheiving your goal. People will never love you as long as you are bombing thier country and killing people, it is how you rebuild, look at Japan and Germany, after WWI the country was devestated, they sent about a generation of young men to war, lost, something like 1,800,000 million soliders killed, and 760,000 civilans killed (manly by famine, as Germany was more worried about the war than feeding its own), then the rest of the world like France who lost 1,375,000 soliders (only 40,000 even though a huge chunk of the war was fought on Frence Soil, hmmmmm) and Russian lost 1,700,000 (mainly due to German Mustard Gas) and about 3,000,000 civilians (wow), took huge revenge on Germany, and left them helpless to feed thenselves, we have all seen the huge infaltion and totally devested economy after 1918 (sucks to be the losers). So they start WWII, to get back on top, then after that war Germany lost (From a low count of 2,850,000 million to a high of 4,750,000 military deaths and a range from 500,000 civilians to over 3 million.


Hey we might be rough and tough rockers, but we want our money, so don't download our music of the internet, buy!
Metellica

We won hearts and minds be rebuilding that country by not punishing Germany after WWII like was done after WWI, becuase a blackhole in the world economy would have been created than no one would have escaped, and you see how much more violent WWII was than WWI, think what WWIII would look like! So we gave Germany the seed money (billions) to restart, and they did a good job! That is how you win hearts and minds, not by handing out Hershey Chocolate while you burn down a town, but how you rebuild. No if those Bastards woudl let us rebuild Iraq like we did Japan and Germany, in 40 to 50 years they will be rich enough to critize the US and be smug enough to judge everyone else, and forget and cover up all the ****ty things thaey did 40 or 50 years ago.

nuff said

roundshort
out

do not let anyone hide behind "Nazi" the German Army and Nazy were not Nazi, but left over from last WWI (see how they made poor Rommell off himself) The war was with Germany, not the Nazis, had Germans not taken the national socilest crap, and stood ther gound WWII would nat have happened, don't forget the facts

America held a very bloody revolution and won at a very expensive price, both in life and money, we ended up ok. WWII is a good example of what happens when people are too scared to do what is right, stand up aganist evil, like Indy did, he was not yellow, he took on all the gerries, and gave 'em hell!

I think I will relate all future links to Indy somehow! much more fun

"I always hated the whole "Hearts and Mind" thing anyhow. War is not about that, it is about acheiving your goal."

war is mostly about seeing your goal. unfortunately, you don't.

if your problem are people that hate you, people that are hidden somewhere in your country and in other countries of the world, people that take their strength from public support - your *goal* must be to take away their strength. to win the war for "hearts and minds". if you have the support of great parts of the world, terrorists can't harm you. if you haven't, you'll breed new ones whereever your bombs may fall.

your goal is not destroying iraq. why destroy a small, poor country like this one? tanks from WWII, soldiers who never learnt how to fight properly - simply defeating them can't be your "goal", can it? you don't stop terrorism this way. war looks different today. those who accept it, can win it. those who believe that the war for "hearts and minds" is just a PR gag or the thing that Coca Cola does in TV spots, might never be able to win the real wars, inside our own countries, inside of the minds of those who want to kill us. only when most of them believe that the western world doesn't harm them, we will have peace. but the war on iraq showed most of them, that the western world is very ready to harm them. this is not the way to win wars anymore. today you believe you won the war on iraq. in ten years you might realized you've actually lost it. but by then it will be too late.


EDIT:
"The war was with Germany, not the Nazis, had Germans not taken the national socilest crap, and stood ther gound WWII would nat have happened, don't forget the facts"

thanks for proving everything i've just said about you. watch "The Wave", then we should talk again. as long as you believe that weakness is limited to germany, this will get nowhere.

UUUyyah, wow, poor country Iraq????????????????
Me thinks you are misguided little boy, allow me to take you to school yet again!

With Iraq's oil reserve estimates at a low, are over 300 billion barrells, actually makes them one of the worlds richest nations! (of course witht he jerks who were in power only 3% of the countires population can enjoy that, witht he rest living in a dangerous state of poverty!

Before Desert Storm I, which we fought to do nothing more than liberate Kuwat, a small defense less country, they were considered the WORLDs 6th largest Military. They were much more battle tested than even the US, was the Rebuplican Guard was one fo the most feared forces in the world. We were actually worried about the battle. But because of how awful the people were treated under Saddam, they had no will to fight, and surrendered. They did a little better job this time.

Please do not paint this picture of poor little innocent Iraq, with WWII tanks, I think we gave them better arms to fight Iran.

Hell, few countries could have done what we did, maybe Russian, China, India, and of course my favorites, the IDF, this was not a week little country, not a Belguim if you will