Hearts and Minds ? The War on Terror

http://pewglobal.org/reports/display.php?ReportID=248

Concerns over Islamic extremism, extensive in the West even before this month's terrorist attacks in London, are shared to a considerable degree by the publics in several predominantly Muslim nations surveyed. Nearly three-quarters of Moroccans and roughly half of those in Pakistan, Turkey and Indonesia see Islamic extremism as a threat to their countries. At the same time, most Muslim publics are expressing less support for terrorism than in the past. Confidence in Osama bin Laden has declined markedly in some countries and fewer believe suicide bombings that target civilians are justified in the defense of Islam.

Nonetheless, the polling also finds that while Muslim and non-Muslim publics share some common concerns, they have very different attitudes regarding the impact of Islam on their countries. Muslim publics worry about Islamic extremism, but the balance of opinion in predominantly Muslim countries is that Islam is playing a greater role in politics ? and most welcome that development. Turkey is a clear exception; the public there is divided about whether a greater role for Islam in the political life of that country is desirable.

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And not to be left out:

While support for suicide bombings and other terrorist acts has fallen in most Muslim-majority nations surveyed, so too has confidence in Al Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden. In Lebanon, just 2% report some or a lot of confidence in bin Laden, and in Turkey only 7% do so.

In Morocco, just 26% of the public now say they have a lot or some confidence in bin Laden, down sharply from 49% in May 2003. In Indonesia, the public is now about evenly split, with 35% saying they place at least some confidence in bin Laden and 37% saying they have little or none; that represents a major shift since 2003, when 58% expressed confidence in bin Laden.

In Pakistan, however, a narrow majority (51%) places some measure of confidence in bin Laden, a slight increase from 45% in 2003. And in Jordan, support for the Al Qaeda leader has risen over the last two years from 55% to a current 60%, including 25% who say they have a lot of confidence in him. Unsurprisingly, support for bin Laden in non-Muslim countries is measured in the small single digits.

Declining support for terror in a number of the Muslim countries surveyed tracks with previously reported dramatic increases in favorable views of the United States in Indonesia and Morocco. Favorable opinions of the U.S. surged most among younger people in Morocco, but were equally evident among both the young and old in Indonesia. The polling also found that in most Muslim countries women were less likely to express an opinion of the U.S. than were men, but when they did, they held a somewhat more positive view.

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Favorable views of the United States? With Iraq? With troops all over the MiddleEast, ?occupying? Muslim lands? It would seem that the only places we are loosing the war for hearts and minds is the (western) Main Stream Media and the US Democratic Party.

actually, the arrogant and ruthless behavior of the USA and their allies has made you lose the "war for hearts and minds" virtually everywhere - except for your own countries. the UNO is annoyed, the countries that didn't support it are annoyed, the iraqis are annoyed, iran is afraid and the terrorists are awake.

there was never a real interest of the invading powers to get support from the rest of the world. you didn't ask for other opinions, so it is not surprising that the world turns against you now - of course including the media.

if somebody denies the disagreement with the USA this would mostly happen out of fear - but we have to face it: nothing about the war on iraq was arranged in a way that would make it agreeable. you did it your way and that's it. one day, things might no longer be this easy for the USA - perhaps you should say goodbye to the idea that you are immortal.

How can you make generalizations about how Iraq, Iran, the rest of the world feels when it pleases you? All you have said is just your opinion, which is wrong anyway. Jay R. Zay your avatar (Marcus) is especially appropriate:

?But if you want facts, Indy, I've none to give you. At my age, I'm prepared to take a few things on faith.?

"How can you make generalizations about how Iraq, Iran, the rest of the world feels when it pleases you?"

how can you?

"All you have said is just your opinion"

i have told you about what the world thinks. this is no secret - except for you and great parts of the american people who isn't much interested, though.

"...which is wrong anyway"

oh, something new about my opinion. may i assume that this is the difference between *your* opinion and *my*opinion?

"Jay R. Zay your avatar (Marcus) is especially appropriate: ?But if you want facts, Indy, I've none to give you. At my age, I'm prepared to take a few things on faith.?"

actually, it is a fact that nobody likes to be ignored. do you think the UNO was happy that you didn't care about it's decision about the iraq war? do you think the iraqis are happy that you bombed their cities, increased the local poverty and killed their families? do you think, some countries of europe are happy that Rumsfeld insulted them?

probably, they all like it and just i don't. very probable. perhaps, most americans enjoyed 9/11 and just you didn't. should sound probable to you.

OK, I have been holding my tongue about a lot of these posts lately, but I feel compelled to speak out. I hope this is the proper format.

First of all I think there has been a decidedly Anti-German feel to a lot of the posts here lately on the "Off Topic" table. I feel this is wrong.

Some of this has to do with the bombastic nature of some of JZ's posts. But a lot of what JZ has to say has quite the ring of truth to it.

You don't win peoples' hearts and minds by blowing them up.........(Shock and Awe!!!). You don't win peoples' hearts and minds by humiliating them (the treatment of the Iraqi military..............Abu Graib). I simply can't believe the monumental stupidity and grotesque mistakes that have been committed in the Iraq war by people who should know better. It truly boggles the mind. And every day more Americans and Iraqis are getting blown up.................. I think it's time to admit mistakes, cut losses, and get out.

As for the Anti-German vein that has been demonstrated lately on the Raven. I could speak volumes about how history has been distorted in its portrayal of Germany in the 20th century. History is written by the Victors.........Nuremburg, ....that great travesty of justice, was nothing more than "Victors Justice". The "Facts" of History are often difficult to uncover, especially when the history that we have been spoonfed has been by and large the product of..................dare I say it? If I do I know I will be flamed, but nonetheless I feel I must speak my mind...........the Jewish controlled media, which by definition will not be kind, nor fair, to the struggle of the German people in the 20th century.

Anyway, I've said enough for now.

Don?t feed the monkey.

I have nothing against Germans and I never made any anti-German comments. Germany was responsible for some of the greatest composers in western music (even if Beethoven was from a Flemish background). I do find the German accent/language to be very guttural and not to my taste. In terms of war crimes the Japanese were probably worse than the Germans anyway.

mostly agreed, thanks monkey.

Jay R. Zay said:

mostly agreed, thanks monkey.

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Of course monkey would agree with you because he's also from Germany.

i don't know whether he is or not. he can agree with me, be from germany and be right at the same time. there are enough people from germay who wouldn't so it isn't this self-evident. of course only if i'm not contradicting any of the germany-experts from this board like indyfan, ToJ and roundshort with this statement.

I'm not from Germany, though some of my ancestors were. They were from Breslau, and migrated to America in the late 19th century.

Indyanna, I wasn't directing anything at you. I just picked this particular thread to speak out. But there have been a number of threads recently that I felt were not quite fair in their portrayal of modern German history.

If anyone is to speak of "War Crimes" then they must speak about Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Tokyo, Dresden, Hamburg....the deliberate starvation of German POW's, the forced expulsion and genocide of ethnic Germans from Eastern Europe, the "morgenthau plan" which was a blueprint for the extermination of the German race.

These things are often forgotten in discussions of "War Crimes".

But anyway, I don't want to co-opt this thread. IndyAnna You made some interesting points in your opener. Perhaps some ground is being gained in the War on Islamic Terrorism. There are some hopeful signs, but there are still grave errors being committed that limit any such gains that may be made. And there are still a lot of bad signs (London bombings) that there is a long way to go.

"I see nowhere in this post where I have made a reply up till now."

first of all you probably mean "thread" instead of "post". secondly, i have noticed in other threads that everybody seems to know much more about my country and my people than i do. you for example. i've never said this statement referred to THIS thread. did i? you are a smartass everywhere you go, no need to limit it to a special thread. you know what i'm talking about...

"First of all, I'm not usre how Monkey gets the impression that there is this plot to assisnate anything German."

well, you could get this impression. at least i could and obviously i wasn't the only one. even vaxer mentioned something like this if i recall correctly.

"This is not true and a pitiful way of defending a point."

attacking my nationality is an even more pitiful way of defending a point. used mainly by roundshort, you and indyfan.

"I have said before that you make some good points and I take offense to you labeling me as a blind American."

you are blind and american. there is nothing racist about this. i've never said that the blindness is founded on your nationality. it's, so to speak, an extra feature.

"I have also said that my country has done horrible things. You just see things one way and one way only."

i'm surprised to hear this complaint from *you*.

"Knock off your bull**** of trying to blast anything American. It is old now."

same as for german. it's about 60 years old now. i've never generalized but we can't deny a few facts. that the war on iraq violated international law. that the majority of americans reelected their president nevertheless. if you blame my country for hitler, i blame your country for george bush. not for the first voting where bush cheated to get the presidency - but the second election was very clear in favor of bush. AFTER we knew how iraq went. i think i can blame the majority of your people for this, can't i? thanks. if i wanted to blast "anything" american, i'd sell my car, my clothes, my PC, listen to different music, watch different movies,... . i don't. but you are blind enough to take any kind of critizism as anti-americanism. which is pretty weak.

"You sound like a babbling buffoon when you do this. Make a point and try to be objective (as hard as that is for you)."

go ahead, show us how. until this day you haven't done so very convincing. the only ones who believe that the three of you (ToD, indyfan, roundshort) are right and perfect in everything they say and do are the three of you. not only racist nazi-germans like me critizise what you do. but you have each other and, as i've said, if you think that an issue exceeds your intellectual horizon, simply don't reply. you could have saved yourself a lot of trouble and unpleasant discussions.

There's a whole list of logical fallacies here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_fallacy

For all of you: read them, and avoid them. Thanks!

Not sure how to interpret your cryptic post IG, but........yeah, sure we'll try to ....um, avoid ......logical fallacies or whatnot.

I?m very disappointed. Not because we have some serious talks here at The Raven, not because people from different nationalities confront their point of views and not because it ends up we all disagree.

I?m disappointed because there is absolutely no respect going on here. No respect for opinions, for difference and for nationalities. There?s no tolerance no open-mindedness and no self-control. It?s a constant fight; opinions are thrown at each other without consideration.

This only reveals, and I?m very sorry to say it, the immaturity of some members on this board. One should be able to be confronted on its opinions without breaking into a flood of insults. One should have the respect to read and try to understand opposed opinions before replying with contempt and misunderstanding. We all have different point of views, different lives, we were all taught a different version of history and we?re all biased. It is only normal that we disagree, but it systematically turns into a never-ending fight.

What I hate above all is fake accusations (racist, Nazi?), a sensationalist way to devilize the opponent. This is not a game, nobody?s going to win, and being proved wrong is not losing. There is so much we could learn from this diversity and it?s not by taking everything as offence and replying emotionally that we will learn, sometimes it?s better to sit back and take it, and think about it. A free mind is one that can evolve with the differences of others. Some people seem to take pride in insulting others thinking it will impress their like-minded friends. If someone?s looking for a place where everyone will agree with its unflawed opinions and never put in question his beliefs then this OT table is not the place to come.

Also there?s no popularity contest going on at the Raven, it?s not because you?re disliked that you should leave, shut up or obey to the majority; being outnumbered doesn?t mean you?re wrong. If that was the case I would have left years ago.

I just hope that people will change before we continue discussing burning issues. It only takes a few members to ruin it for the rest. And I?m sure a lot of members would like to contribute but don?t because of the mess it turns out to be.

Well said Vaxer.

Archaeology is the search for fact, not truth. My post about logical fallacies relates to many of the statements which people make. As a mathematician, I state only that which is unrefutably true. For example, the statement "You would say that, because you're German", is an invalid argument - it does not in any way refute whatever was said by the German. I'm also seeing a lot of Non Sequitors, which is just unacceptable.

don't have my dictionary handy......what's a Non Sequitor?

OK, too slow.....found my dictionary.

Non sequitors............yes, I'm probably guilty of that in this thread. Apologies, but with an explanation.

As I said in my first post, perhaps this thread is not the correct forum to speak up about the German bashing that I have found to be prevalent lately on the off topic forum.

What I was doing was responding in this thread to posts in other threads, which wasn't logical, and so yes, it probably looked like non sequitors...........(cool word...thanks for making me look it up IG).

I still stand behind everything I have said.

Perhaps though I should have just started a new thread entirely.

Once again, apologies to all.

How was the dropping of the atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki a war crime?

If you want a good example of a war crime see The Rape of Nanking.


http://www.tribo.org/nanking/

I'm very familiar with the Japanese atrocities at Nanking. Among other sources on the subject I have read the book "The Rape of Nanking" by Iris Chang. If you haven't I would recommend it highly.

Anyway though, surely you're not serious with your question about Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Sounds like a challenge of some kind. The answers are so obvious that I think I have to turn the question around and ask you: How are they NOT war crimes? And how do YOU define a war crime IndyAnna? I would be curious.

I also find it interesting that you mention Nanking when you ask about Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Are you one of those people who think that it's OK sometimes to murder innocent non combatants, as long as it's the "good guys" doing the murdering??