John Williams & the issue of originality

Red 5

Guest
Does anyone else think that John Williams is a bit of a plagiariser?:confused: Seeing as John Williams has won numerous Oscars for Best Original Score. Here are some examples:

Just listen to Dvorák?s symphony no. 9 ? the last movement (Allegro con fuoco). It starts out with the Jaws theme almost note for note and then sounds exactly like the Throne Room music from Star Wars. Have a listen to a sample on amazon:

www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00...1/sr=2-2/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_2/103-9585425-6811847

It?s not a coincidence because George Lucas asked Williams to listen to Dvorak?s music before writing the music to Star Wars.

Also, the music that ends E.T. (saying goodbye) sounds very similar to Richard Strauss? Death and Transfiguration.
 

Joe Brody

Well-known member
I can't help on this but some others -- namely Colonel Vogel and Chattar Lai -- have shown a keen interest in the music of John Williams.
 

roundshort

Active member
I always thought John ripped off the MEphisto Waltz for Star wars in a big way!

which comes to the big question, is anything original anymore?
The bIg Lewboski and Napoleon Dynamite were I guess, I just yearn for the good old days of movies like Caddyshack, and Indiana Jones , , ,
 
Well, I can hear Jaws, but The Throne Room is a bit of a stretch. Yes, it has that same sort of feel (kind of), but I wouldn't say it sounds exactly like it. You're only going to be able to go so far in music before you start having to do similar things--and we've had hundreds of years of classical music. If you want to get into plagarism, James Horner is a popular target, although I am a fan of his music.
 

Red 5

Guest
Yes the Jaws theme was a rip-off but the Raiders March sounds exactly like a march written by Antonio Salieri (1750-1835). ;)
 

Red 5

Guest
ClintonHammond said:
There are only what, 9 notes... Eventually one thing is bound to sound like something else...

With guitar music it all can sound the same, but with a full orchestra you?d expect more originality. It's not so much the notes anyway; even the orchestrations that John Williams uses are the same. :rolleyes:

My point is that John Williams did not write the music to Jaws; Dvorak did. :eek:
 

Tom Jones

New member
How many different variations of music can there be? Its inevitable that a song will be heard again but its what the musician does with the music that he creates that sets him apart from different composers. It's not like John Williams turned on Dvorák?s music and said, "hmmmm, that would sound great for the end of that Star Wars movie." Then just takes the music and slaps his name on it.
 

Red 5

Guest
Even I with my limited music ability could change one note. It's like saying Sid Vicious wrote My Way because he changed a few of the lyrics. :rolleyes:
 
Oh, come now, it's not that bad. The Force Theme is nowhere near the exact same thing as what Dvorak wrote--that is what the Throne Room is, by the way, the Force Theme in a fanfare arrangement. JW did far more than just change a couple of notes.
 

Stoo

Well-known member
A CRAZY coincidence is that in an episode of "The Wonderful World of Disney",
there's an arrangement of notes which sound exactly like the main "Star Wars"
theme. The title in question is "Run, Appaloosa, Run" (1966), a common repeat.
The resemblance is so startling that my brain has since exploded...

Similarities are inescapable, whether in homage or not. There are plenty of
solid cases regarding musical plagarism but J.Williams is no culprit.

Does anyone know which Salieri march the (banished?) Red5 was referring to?
The one that is supposedly like the Raiders March...
 
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Jay R. Zay

New member
Stoo said:
Does anyone know which Salieri march the (banished?) Red5 was referring to?
The one that is supposedly like the Raiders March...

"a march". some march. any march. he avoided hard proof so that the truth won't break us. don't ask too many questions if you aren't prepared for the answer...! :dead:
 

Stoo

Well-known member
Take a hike, dude...My world is not going to crumble if I find that
J.Williams ripped something off...
 

Stoo

Well-known member
temple of john said:
Who gives a rats ass even if he did? Jesus Christ, people need to either get a life or find something worthwhile to argue about. Christ on a popsicle stick, why does everyone here have such a hard-on for certain things. Who friggin cares?
I'm not *arguing* about anything. Just trying to find out which piece of music
Red5 was referring to. Why do I care? Because it interests me to know what
has possibly inspired certain artists. If you don't give a toss - don't post.

If what you call "a life" is arguing with some annoying kid on the internet,
then you're welcome to it, my friend! There are many questions I have
regarding the Indy films and I thought The Raven would be the proper
forum to discuss them. Guess I was wrong...
 

Aaron H

Moderator Emeritus
ToJ, calm down.

As far as JW "ripping" anyone or any thing off, I say bull. Granted he may be inspired by certain works and arrangements. However, who here has written anything as grand as a film score or a symphony? As someone earlier stated, there are only 13 notes on the chromatic scale (88 keys on a piano). That would leave your choices fairly limited when it comes to composing those notes.

JW is only the new kid on the block, there has been several thousand great pieces of music written before him. To say that he "ripped" his works off of another is akin to saying that authors "rip off" other authors who happen to have similar sentence structures.

Red5 was, like his other incarnations before him, was looking for nothing more than a fight. Lets keep it from going that route.
 

Mariah

Guest
All right, I think you guys are being kind of hard on Stoo and Red 5. Look, this statement is not to accuse Williams of being a hack or anything. I've been obsessed with his music ever since I was nine or ten. Music is probably my favorite thing in the world, and Williams has influenced me more than any other composer. But, Stoo is right in that some of you are so extremely partial about his music that you deny instances when he has stolen other composers' music, and you do this because automatically you think of stealing as a bad thing. And I do mean that Williams has STOLEN whether that be a good thing or a bad thing; personally, I think it's perfectly okay because I think he's turned the music he's taken into something his own, even something better. But the point is you cannot deny the facts:

The theme from Born on the Fourth of July is a reference to Barber's Violin Concerto, Movement 2.
Star Wars Main Title --> King's Row Main Title (Erich Wolfgang Korngold)
Duel of the Fates --> Dvorak's New World Symphony, Movement 3 (loosely)
Schindler's List --> Mahler's 8th (loosely)

These are the most obvious to me, but others can probably think of other instances.

I'm not saying this to accuse Williams, I'm saying this just because it's TRUE! And yes, it's very easy for this to happen in film music because the film composer's job is to create for the viewer associations in order to clarify the story, characters, situations, etc, and classical music carries with it a plethora of associations for people. Williams knows when and how to use music, and as I said, I really think he makes it into something his own and into something great. The Star Wars Main Title is one of the most memorable and wonderful film themes ever written, and anybody would rather listen to it than the King's Row theme.

Williams himself has humbly stated that he is standing on the shoulders of hundreds of years worth of musical geniuses. It's true that music builds upon itself, and composers HAVE to steal from other composers and then make it into something new and many times better. Williams always does this.

If you haven't compared and contrasted the themes I posted above, I challenge you the most biased of Williams fans just to give them all a try. It doesn't mean you'll be forced to think less of the Maestro; it will simply give you more insight into his composing process.
 
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