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Old 02-28-2008, 03:27 AM   #26
adventure_al
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IndySeven
The Grail is probably in an ancient temple someplace in the Middle East. It would be interesting to find out where it really is.

I don't agree with this idea but don't you think its a shame that places like Iraq which have such a rich history and things of huge interest will be lost forever. Ancient buildings have been ruined, it is a pity.
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Old 02-28-2008, 09:13 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by WillKill4Food
That's fine. I agree with you. It was the doubting about the story of Jesus's existence that made me question your words.

In my defense, I never doubted Jesus' existence. I said something along the lines of "if you believe that story at all," and left it up to the reader.
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Old 02-28-2008, 05:35 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn
Now my young friend, no one said it word by word, but if you read the message I quoted recently, you'll notice that's exactly what it says, just in other words.
It says that a million people afraid of the name suggests that there is something divine about it. But, that's not a valid argument, like you said. Billions fear the swastika, too. However, there is much support for Christianity that I'll gladly post if needed.

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Originally Posted by Finn
Funny, how something similar can be said about all of Biblical history.
One single council that happened centuries after the last book of the Bible was written can hardly be considered Biblical history. Catholic history is a much better word.
Perhaps if you had read the article, you would know that the council was held to answer and mend Protestant concerns so that the Catholic church could condemn us for not following them.
It was the result a squabble that developed because of corruption and heresy within the church, and has nothing to do with Biblical history.

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In my defense, I never doubted Jesus' existence. I said something along the lines of "if you believe that story at all," and left it up to the reader.
You said: "And of course, all of this is assuming you believe in the story of Jesus anyway."
I'm sorry if I took it the wrong way.
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Old 02-28-2008, 05:40 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by WillKill4Food
It says that a million people afraid of the name suggests that there is something divine about it. But, that's not a valid argument, like you said. Billions fear the swastika, too. However, there is much support for Christianity that I'll gladly post if needed.





Man, you seem like one of the only people here who agrees with the stuff I say, and It's very pleasing to read that someones not afraid to admit there're a Christian
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Old 02-28-2008, 05:43 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by WillKill4Food
It says that a million people afraid of the name suggests that there is something divine about it. But, that's not a valid argument, like you said. Billions fear the swastika, too. However, there is much support for Christianity that I'll gladly post if needed.
Good, then there's nothing to disagree with. Like I said, there are good arguments, "strength in numbers" just isn't one of them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WillKill4Food
One single council that happened centuries after the last book of the Bible was written can hardly be considered Biblical history. Catholic history is a much better word.
Perhaps if you had read the article, you would know that the council was held to answer and mend Protestant concerns so that the Catholic church could condemn us for not following them.
It was the result a squabble that developed because of corruption and heresy within the church, and has nothing to do with Biblical history.
In similar manner, it's stupid to say that it's the Arthurian legends and such that have formed our current understanding of the Grail, especially when those are allegedly renounced as mostly fiction by all of us. I wasn't actually pointing out an infallacy in the content of your arguments, but the argumentation itself. And you made my point yourself, beautifully. See?
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Old 02-28-2008, 05:44 PM   #31
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Man, you seem like one of the only people here who agrees with the stuff I say, and It's very pleasing to read that someones not afraid to admit there're a Christian .
Even though monkey suggested that everybody in Tennessee is a Christian, that's far from the truth.
About once a week somebody in our town sends a letter to the editor of our newspaper (a newspaper, not a religious forum) and says that Christians are misguided and that we are all fools. The schools are worse.
That's why I'm used to defending my faith, but I have not begun to fight for my faith. This isn't the place.
Quote:
In similar manner, it's stupid to say that it's the Arthurian legends and such that have formed our current understanding of the Grail, especially when those are allegedly renounced as mostly fiction by all of us.
The Arthurian legends have formed much of what we think about the grail.
Any grail expert will tell you that.
Quote:
I wasn't actually pointing out an infallacy in the content of your arguments, but the argumentation itself. And you made my point yourself, beautifully. See?
Which point? You are being ambiguous.
If you are suggesting that the Bible is fallible because the grail is infallible, you are direly misguided.
The grail is never mentioned in the Bible, so it's non-existence has nothing to do with the Bible. It has no more to do with the Bible than Indiana Jones.

Last edited by WillKill4Food : 02-28-2008 at 05:52 PM.
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Old 02-28-2008, 05:49 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by WillKill4Food
Not sure I follow what you're saying.
After skimming through your latest contributions, I honestly wasn't expecting you to.
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Old 02-28-2008, 05:53 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Finn
After skimming through your latest contributions, I honestly wasn't expecting you to.
What's that supposed to mean?
Read my edited post. I wasn't sure which point you were talking about.
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Old 02-28-2008, 05:56 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by WillKill4Food
What's that supposed to mean?
Jesus, what do you need me to do? Draw you a map so you can locate the simplest insult I just flinged at you?
Quote:
Originally Posted by WillKill4Food
Read my edited post.
I did, and therefore...

Quote:
Originally Posted by WillKill4Food
If you are suggesting that the Bible is fallible because the grail is infallible, you are direly misguided.
Luckily I didn't.

C'mon, it can't be that difficult. You're embarassing yourself here, man.
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Old 02-28-2008, 05:59 PM   #35
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It's threads like this that make me really miss CH.

*insert witty pigeon remark*
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Old 02-28-2008, 06:00 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Finn
Jesus, what do you need me to do? Draw you a map so you can locate the simplest insult I just flinged at you?
I knew it was an insult.
However, like I said, you have made many points, and some I have agreed with and supported. Others I haven't. So, there were many you could have alluded to.

I would assume that as a moderator you are above insults during what should be an intelligent discussion.
But I guess I put too much faith in you...
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Old 02-28-2008, 06:02 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WillKill4Food


I would assume that as a moderator you are above insults during what should be an intelligent discussion.
But I guess I put too much faith in you...


Yeah, I'd think so too but I'll stay out of your discussion
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Old 02-28-2008, 06:05 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by WillKill4Food
However, like I said, you have made many points, and some I have agreed with and supported. Others I haven't. So, there were many you could have alluded to.
Going pseudo-intellectual, eh? Atta boy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WillKill4Food
I would assume that as a moderator you are above insults during what should be an intelligent discussion.
I'm so not going to spell out the paradox in this statement.

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Originally Posted by WillKill4Food
But I guess I put too much faith in you...
And that is why you fail.
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Old 02-28-2008, 06:13 PM   #39
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Wow.
You enjoy making non-existent points, don't you?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn
Going pseudo-intellectual, eh? Atta boy.
Because I used vocabulary higher than a fifth grader?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn
I'm so not going to spell out the paradox in this statement.
That makes since, being that there were known.
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Originally Posted by Finn
And that is why you fail.
Admitting that you are unworthy of the job?
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Old 02-28-2008, 06:20 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WillKill4Food
You enjoy making non-existent points, don't you?
Non-existent. Kind of funny to hear that word from the mouth of a devout Christian.

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Originally Posted by WillKill4Food
Because I used vocabulary higher than a fifth grader?
And yet again, I recommend you to actually read what I say. I haven't been once sarcastic during this discussion.

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Originally Posted by WillKill4Food
That makes since, being that there were known.
You know, when I have to voice the thing out in my head to get it to make sense, it's kind of not a thing that exactly brings credibility to the argument...

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Admitting that you are unworthy of the job?
Since when has modding a forum required faith? I prefer trust.
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Old 02-28-2008, 06:25 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn
Non-existent. Kind of funny to hear that word from the mouth of a devout Christian.
God exists. You're points don't. Did I clear that up for you?
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Originally Posted by Finn
And yet again, I recommend you to actually read what I say. I haven't been once sarcastic during this discussion.
You said: "Going pseudo-intellectual, eh? Atta boy." If that's not sarcasm, what is it?
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Since when has modding a forum required faith? I prefer trust.
You admitted that my "trust" in you was unwarranted, which it obviously is.
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Old 02-28-2008, 06:27 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by WillKill4Food
God exists. You're points don't. Did I clear that up for you?
Ah man, you are comedy gold. The irony in this statement is killing me.

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Originally Posted by WillKill4Food
You said: "Going pseudo-intellectual, eh? Atta boy." If that's not sarcasm, what is it?
Honest praise.

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Originally Posted by WillKill4Food
You admitted that my "trust" in you was unwarranted, which it obviously is.
In my dictionary, "trust" and "faith" are not the same thing.
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Old 02-28-2008, 06:31 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn
Honest praise.
For what? You're lying?
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Originally Posted by Finn
In my dictionary, "trust" and "faith" are not the same thing.
You don't like the word faith, so I tried to oblige.
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Old 02-28-2008, 06:33 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by metalinvader
It's threads like this that make me really miss CH.
Yeah, didn't he get removed for insulting people???
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Old 02-28-2008, 06:36 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by WillKill4Food
For what? You're lying?
Okay, I take it back. For a second there I thought you were actually worthy of it.

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Originally Posted by WillKill4Food
You don't like the word faith, so I tried to oblige.
I have nothing against the word. But I could find a lot to gripe about the context it was used in.



C'mon, isn't there anybody here to spell it out for the kid? I'd do it myself, but that'd be kind of lame. It floats right there in front of his nose, but he just... Doesn't. See. It.
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Old 02-28-2008, 06:43 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Finn
C'mon, isn't there anybody here to spell it out for the kid? I'd do it myself, but that'd be kind of lame. It floats right there in front of his nose, but he just... Doesn't. See. It.
We have discussed, not quite the best word, so much that you could be talking about anything.
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Becoming a moderator for a specific forum is usually rewarded to users who are particularly helpful...
Describes Finn to a tee...cough, cough.
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Old 02-28-2008, 06:48 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by WillKill4Food
We have discussed, not quite the best word, so much that you could be talking about anything.
And that's your excuse for not seeing it?

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Originally Posted by WillKill4Food
Describes Finn to a tee...cough, cough.
I am helping you, man. All the time. But giving you too clear pointers would take coherence away from the main discussion.

Honestly... is it my fault if you don't see it?
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Old 02-28-2008, 06:50 PM   #48
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I thought the point in a moderator was so a thread didn't go too far off topic and to pacify situations. It's pretty clear Finn is just aggitating WillKill, it has gone past a difference of opinion.
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Old 02-28-2008, 06:53 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn
I am helping you, man. All the time. But giving you too clear pointers would take coherence away from the main discussion.
I wasn't referring to this conversation. I haven't seen you post a word of wisdom on a single thread, only sarcasm.
How does continuously avoiding the question add coherence to the discussion? People are reading this thread and thinking it's a religious argument between me and you, and that seems to be what it has become...

Quote:
I thought the point in a moderator was so a thread didn't go too far off topic and to pacify situations. It's pretty clear Finn is just aggitating WillKill, it has gone past a difference of opinion.
Well, said.

So, back to the original topic:
No, the Holy Grail does not exist. Some theories on it's origins are below:
"There are two veins of thought concerning the Grail's origin. The first, championed by Roger Sherman Loomis, Alfred Nutt, and Jessie Weston, holds that it derived from early Celtic myth and folklore. Loomis traced a number of parallels between Medieval Welsh literature and Irish material and the Grail romances, including similarities between the Mabinogion's Bran the Blessed and the Arthurian Fisher King, and between Bran's life-restoring cauldron and the Grail. Other legends featured magical platters or dishes that symbolize otherworldly power or test the hero's worth. Sometimes the items generate a never-ending supply of food, sometimes they can raise the dead. Sometimes they decide who the next king should be, as only the true sovereign could hold them.

On the other hand, some scholars believe the Grail began as a purely Christian symbol. For example, Joseph Goering of the University of Toronto has identified sources for Grail imagery in 12th century wall paintings from churches in the Catalan Pyrenees (now mostly removed to the Museu Nacional d'Art de Catalunya, Barcelona), which present unique iconic images of the Virgin Mary holding a bowl that radiates tongues of fire, images that predate the first literary account by Chrétien de Troyes. Goering argues that they were the original inspiration for the Grail legend.

Another recent theory holds that the earliest stories that cast the Grail in a Christian light were meant to promote the Roman Catholic sacrament of the Holy Communion. Although the practice of Holy Communion was first alluded to in the Christian Bible and defined by theologians in the first centuries AD, it was around the time of the appearance of the first Christianized Grail literature that the Roman church was beginning to add more ceremony and mysticism around this particular sacrament. Thus, the first Grail stories may have been celebrations of a renewal in this traditional sacrament. This theory has some basis in the fact that the Grail legends are a phenomenon of the Western church.

Most scholars today accept that both Christian and Celtic traditions contributed to the legend's development, though many of the early Celtic-based arguments are largely discredited (Loomis himself came to reject much of Weston and Nutt's work). The general view is that the central theme of the Grail is Christian, even when not explicitly religious, but that much of the setting and imagery of the early romances is drawn from Celtic material."

Read more at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Grail
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Old 02-28-2008, 07:06 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by adventure_al
I thought the point in a moderator was so a thread didn't go too far off topic and to pacify situations. It's pretty clear Finn is just aggitating WillKill, it has gone past a difference of opinion.
I confess, it's partially that. I let the Devil get the better of me, I just had to see how far this could go. Not exactly the most orthodox of methods, but brought some late-night amusement to this deranged mod. It takes two to tango, though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WillKill4Food
I wasn't referring to this conversation. I haven't seen you post a word of wisdom on a single thread, only sarcasm.
Listen, you're still young so I as I stated already, I don't even expect you to see the points I so candidly hide behind my often warranted sarcasm.

In a way, our seemingly fruitless discussion can be seen as a fitting analogy of the Grail. One understands it as a physical cup that has possibly once existed and still does, or doesn't. Other sees it as something far more abstract (and I don't solely mean all that Dan Brown shtick). The Grail is a boggle like are all things surrounding it. There are people who understand that and people who don't. And it's the latter kind who try to state things like "God exists" when there should already be mutual understanding that such an argument will be thrown on a completely infertile soil.



Who was it who said we need a philosophy table?
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