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Old 02-28-2008, 07:10 PM   #51
The_Raiders
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I don't know why there's a thread on the grail. There is no holy grail. There could be an acual cup, that Jesus drank out of that people think gives eternal life/ healing/ etc, but in reality it's just a cup, nothing more, nothing less. So like I'v said before I don't beleive in the cup of Christ, only Christ Himself
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Old 02-28-2008, 07:15 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn
Not exactly the most orthodox of methods, but brought some late-night amusement to this deranged mod. It takes two to tango, though.
How many times have I tried to get this discussion back on track? You're a mod, that's your job, but looks like I'm the one that has to do it...
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Originally Posted by Finn
Listen, you're still young so I as I stated already, I don't even expect you to see the points I so candidly hide behind my often warranted sarcasm.
I'd rather my age wasn't brought into this. I'm not a dumbass because I'm 16. I'm second in my class (other dude's an Indian).
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Originally Posted by Finn
In a way, our seemingly fruitless discussion can be seen as a fitting analogy of the Grail. One understands it as a physical cup that has possibly once existed and still does, or doesn't. Other sees it as something far more abstract (and I don't solely mean all that Dan Brown shtick). The Grail is a boggle like are all things surrounding it. There are people who understand that and people who don't.
Well said.
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Originally Posted by Finn
And it's the latter kind who try to state things like "God exists" when there should already be mutual understanding that such an argument will be thrown on a completely infertile soil.
Isn't there something about freedom of religion in our Constitution?
A man shouldn't be judged for his beliefs. Judging a man because of his religion is worse than judging a man because he's homosexual.
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Who was it who said we need a philosophy table?
You're finally starting to be constructive.
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Old 02-28-2008, 07:26 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by WillKill4Food
I'm not a dumbass because I'm 16. I'm second in my class (other dude's an Indian).
You know, I'd rather see you prove by what you actually have to say. The fact that you state you are smart doesn't make you smart.

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Originally Posted by WillKill4Food
Isn't there something about freedom of religion in our Constitution?
It's not my Constitution. Welcome to The Raven, an international Indiana Jones Fan Community. I'm not prohibiting you from using such arguments, by the way. Just pointing out that you may end up getting yourself ridiculed if you utilize them in a wrong context. Still got lot to learn, both of us.
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Old 02-28-2008, 07:33 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Finn
You know, I'd rather see you prove by what you actually have to say. The fact that you state you are smart doesn't make you smart.
Nor does my youth make me unintelligible.
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Originally Posted by Finn
It's not my Constitution. Welcome to The Raven, an international Indiana Jones Fan Community. I'm not prohibiting you from using such arguments, by the way. Just pointing out that you may end up getting yourself ridiculed if you utilize them in a wrong context. Still got lot to learn, both of us.
Sorry, I forgot that you are Finnish. But in the Rules of this Forum it says that:
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…you will not post any messages that are obscene, vulgar, sexually-orientated, hateful, threatening, or otherwise violative of any laws.

Last edited by Finn : 02-28-2008 at 07:38 PM.
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Old 02-28-2008, 07:44 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by WillKill4Food
Nor does my youth make me unintelligible.
Nobody ever implied that. I was simply offering some constructive criticism towards certain views of the world you seem to harbor. I'm of course not going to give you any trouble for not getting it (never have, to anyone) but the flipside of that is the sarky commentary I sometimes provide.

I think we should get back to discussing the Grail and its whereabouts now...
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Old 02-28-2008, 07:47 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn
I think we should get back to discussing the Grail and its whereabouts now...
I suggested that 5 posts ago:
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Originally Posted by WillKill4Food
So, back to the original topic:
No, the Holy Grail does not exist. Some theories on it's origins are below:
"There are two veins of thought concerning the Grail's origin. The first, championed by Roger Sherman Loomis, Alfred Nutt, and Jessie Weston, holds that it derived from early Celtic myth and folklore. Loomis traced a number of parallels between Medieval Welsh literature and Irish material and the Grail romances, including similarities between the Mabinogion's Bran the Blessed and the Arthurian Fisher King, and between Bran's life-restoring cauldron and the Grail. Other legends featured magical platters or dishes that symbolize otherworldly power or test the hero's worth. Sometimes the items generate a never-ending supply of food, sometimes they can raise the dead. Sometimes they decide who the next king should be, as only the true sovereign could hold them.

On the other hand, some scholars believe the Grail began as a purely Christian symbol. For example, Joseph Goering of the University of Toronto has identified sources for Grail imagery in 12th century wall paintings from churches in the Catalan Pyrenees (now mostly removed to the Museu Nacional d'Art de Catalunya, Barcelona), which present unique iconic images of the Virgin Mary holding a bowl that radiates tongues of fire, images that predate the first literary account by Chrétien de Troyes. Goering argues that they were the original inspiration for the Grail legend.

Another recent theory holds that the earliest stories that cast the Grail in a Christian light were meant to promote the Roman Catholic sacrament of the Holy Communion. Although the practice of Holy Communion was first alluded to in the Christian Bible and defined by theologians in the first centuries AD, it was around the time of the appearance of the first Christianized Grail literature that the Roman church was beginning to add more ceremony and mysticism around this particular sacrament. Thus, the first Grail stories may have been celebrations of a renewal in this traditional sacrament. This theory has some basis in the fact that the Grail legends are a phenomenon of the Western church.

Most scholars today accept that both Christian and Celtic traditions contributed to the legend's development, though many of the early Celtic-based arguments are largely discredited (Loomis himself came to reject much of Weston and Nutt's work). The general view is that the central theme of the Grail is Christian, even when not explicitly religious, but that much of the setting and imagery of the early romances is drawn from Celtic material."

Read more at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Grail
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Old 02-29-2008, 03:22 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by Perhilion
Great, can I come?

Sure, let's get our whips and fedoras and go!

I just hope that there aren't any Nazi tanks waiting for us there!
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Old 02-29-2008, 04:42 PM   #58
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Ah, thats half the fun!
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Old 03-08-2008, 04:31 PM   #59
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Wow, im glad to see that about two pages of this thread has been used for arguing... thats sarcasm...
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Old 03-11-2008, 08:01 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by Dr._Jones
Wow, im glad to see that about two pages of this thread has been used for arguing... thats sarcasm...
I wasn't the one that provoked it...
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Old 03-24-2008, 11:21 AM   #61
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what should be an intelligent discussion.

I thought you were talking about religion, no point flinging about such contradiction in terms
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I'm so not going to spell out the paradox in this statement.

Sorry i just didn't have the restraint not to!

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God exists.

No it doesn't.

But yes, i find this awesomely interesting that the staunch fundamentalists are the ones so apposed to there being a grail. I don't know why that is totally but i find it extremely curious.

While my screw is not loose enough to believe in the ramblings of the bible I would like to think that the grail and ark are still kicking about some where. While obviously they would hold no magic powers i don't see why there wouldn't be a cheast to carry around the stone tablets that moses quickly knocked up while bored up a mountain one day to pass the time. Or a cup that has captured the blood of someone that wasnt the son of a god that doesn't exist.

So yeah why not. I think its cool. Although near impossible to find, as how would you be able to tell which were real. I think theres probably enough bits of "the true cross" floating about to build noahs ark a few hundred times over
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Old 03-31-2008, 09:38 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary2880
I thought you were talking about religion, no point flinging about such contradiction in terms
Sorry i just didn't have the restraint not to!
No it doesn't.
But yes, i find this awesomely interesting that the staunch fundamentalists are the ones so apposed to there being a grail. I don't know why that is totally but i find it extremely curious.
While my screw is not loose enough to believe in the ramblings of the bible I would like to think that the grail and ark are still kicking about some where. While obviously they would hold no magic powers i don't see why there wouldn't be a cheast to carry around the stone tablets that moses quickly knocked up while bored up a mountain one day to pass the time. Or a cup that has captured the blood of someone that wasnt the son of a god that doesn't exist.
So yeah why not. I think its cool. Although near impossible to find, as how would you be able to tell which were real. I think theres probably enough bits of "the true cross" floating about to build noahs ark a few hundred times over
I hate to kick a dead horse, but someone needs to respond to this.
Religious discussions can be intelligent.
Science has yet to prove the existence of or non-existence of God.
The Bible is not a collection of ramblings. It has value, whether you believe in it or not. It's histories have been proven accurate and it's messages are worthy of consideration.
You are right, though, about the absence of power in those two objects. The Ark has been powerless since the Resurrection of Christ. Hundreds of Grails must exist, or did exist, though I find it implausible that a cup was dranken from by Christ and caught his blood.
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Old 04-01-2008, 03:58 PM   #63
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I am a bit rusty on my Bible, but I don't recall a passage (Canonical or non) of any passage that states that Jesus' blood was ever caught in a cup...
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Old 04-01-2008, 04:18 PM   #64
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I could be entirely misinformed, but I was under the impression that the idea of Christ's blood being caught in the Grail originated with Arthurian legend. French poet Robert de Boron was reportedly the first writer to attribute such an act to Joseph of Arimathea (and such a role to the Grail), all within the context of the Arthurian cycle.

Last edited by Paden : 04-01-2008 at 04:23 PM.
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Old 04-01-2008, 08:18 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paden
I could be entirely misinformed, but I was under the impression that the idea of Christ's blood being caught in the Grail originated with Arthurian legend. French poet Robert de Boron was reportedly the first writer to attribute such an act to Joseph of Arimathea (and such a role to the Grail), all within the context of the Arthurian cycle.
You are correct. I read that it was a, um, Christianized version of magic cauldrons in Celtic mythology.

Pale Horse is also correct. That is why I don't understand how Gary2880 finds it curious that Christians generally don't believe in the Grail. Like I said in a previous post, the Grail has no more to do with the Bible than Indiana Jones does. It's just a story related to Jesus, sort of like Ben Hur.
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Old 04-02-2008, 06:03 AM   #66
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Well you know, a lot of the stuff in the bible is made up fictional tosh so why not believe in the grail as made up fictional tosh as well.. ? Most seem fine with beliving any other bit of scribble that is in the book..

I was told about someone called Mithras the other day, So apprently the story of Jesus wasn't even an original one.

From what i told, and I'm no theologan so i don't know if its true but i figure its about as true as everything else.. anyway this mithras blokey was apprently bore to a mother who was a virgin on the 25th of december (of course we all know that Jesus wasn't born on the 25th of December) in a stable type establishment, had a few followers and decipels was apprently killed for sins then came back to life the next sunday. something like 1,000 or so years before Jesus. Alegidly

Maybe all this son of god thing was quite common back then! Perhaps god is a bit of a pimp? having his way with any old virgin he liked

Quote:
Science has yet to prove the existence of or non-existence of God.

Heard a learned man say the other day that hammered home the point from my perspective

Quote:
"Just because science hasn't explained everything, doesnt mean you can fill the holes with whatever fairy storys you want"



But as with the "prove the existence or non existence" I go back to the small china tea pot orbiting around the sun argument. It's too small to be seen so no one can prove it, but most rational minded people know that something so ludacris couldn't exist. a-la - god.
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Old 04-02-2008, 09:00 AM   #67
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Gary2880: Whatever you may think of religion, there are more decent ways of making your point. Don´t flame.
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Old 04-02-2008, 09:08 AM   #68
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Mithras (alternatively named Mithra or Mitras) was a pagan diety that was imported to the Roman Empire from both the Hindu and Zoroastrian religions. He was a solar god that reportedly did not have a system of worship devoted strictly to him until a cult dedicated to him developed amongst the Romans. Depictions of Mithras found in ancient spaces dedicated to his worship depict him being born from a stone. Strangely, the religion of Mithras only allowed male initiates. There were no female adherents of the belief system.

http://www2.evansville.edu/ecoleweb/...mithraism.html
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Old 04-02-2008, 01:26 PM   #69
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Riveting discussion, very David vs. Goliath. A future lead mod's humble beginnings?
Quote:
Originally Posted by WillKill4Food
People have claimed to be the son of God all down through history
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary2880
Maybe all this son of god thing was quite common
There's more agreement here than at first glance. Maybe everyone's right? To quote P.J. O'Rourke, "After the events of the 20th century, God, quite reasonably, left Europe."
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Old 04-02-2008, 07:56 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary2880
Well you know, a lot of the stuff in the bible is made up fictional tosh so why not believe in the grail as made up fictional tosh as well.. ?
You're the only one here that has claimed it's existence. And the Bible is not "tosh." Much of Biblical history has been shown correct through Archaeology.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary2880
Most seem fine with beliving any other bit of scribble that is in the book..
The Holy Grail is never mentioned in the Bible. Do you read other people's posts before replying to them?
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Originally Posted by Gary2880
I was told about someone called Mithras the other day, So apprently the story of Jesus wasn't even an original one.
After reading Paden's post, I'd suggest that you quit listening to whoever told you that...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary2880
Heard a learned man say the other day that hammered home the point from my perspective
"Just because science hasn't explained everything, doesnt mean you can fill the holes with whatever fairy storys you want"
Good and valid point. However, I do wonder where you think matter comes from. Matter cannot naturally be created or destroyed. But with God, all things are possible. Actually, many scientific theories coincide with Creationism. For example, the Big Bang theory. God said, "Let there be light." And with his other words he created the universe. Of course, that's just what I believe and I've learned not to state those as fact. But, theologically, I don't see any of our stands proven wrong.
Anyway, debate is fine but at least I am willing to consider your statements. Every post you have made in a religious thread has been unthinking and blatantly hateful.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary2880
But as with the "prove the existence or non existence" I go back to the small china tea pot orbiting around the sun argument. It's too small to be seen so no one can prove it, but most rational minded people know that something so ludacris couldn't exist. a-la - god.
If that was the only reason to believe in God, I wouldn't believe in Him. Open your eyes, Gary. I have reasons for my faith.
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Originally Posted by Moedred
Riveting discussion, very David vs. Goliath. A future lead mod's humble beginnings?
There's more agreement here than at first glance. Maybe everyone's right?
I'm curious as to who you were calling a future lead mod. Paden I would presume. He has been very helpful and mod-ish.
Sorry, but I don't see any other agreements. I honestly think that Gary would have argued with me if he had seen where I wrote that.
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Old 04-03-2008, 09:53 AM   #71
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Open your eyes
Now that's not fair, trying to make me fall about with laughter.

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After reading Paden's post, I'd suggest that you quit listening to whoever told you that...

mmm, nah, You never been told something that wasn't true before. LOL sorry, completely forgot i was talking to a christian. Hardly one to dictate to someone who they should and shouldn't listen to for facts are you. After reading my posts you should suggest to yourself to stop listening to the utter arse that is the bible!

Someone catching blood in a cup no, the entire earth flooding for 60 days Yes! Woman created from a rib, Yes! Heaven and Hell, Yes! Perhaps the only reason you don't believe it is because its not psycho enough.
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many scientific theories coincide with Creationism

I'm afraid i missed Einstein's “The Theory of utter Bollocks” Please forward it to me.

Quote:
Matter cannot naturally be created or destroyed. But with God, all things are possible.

Fantastic.

“The universe can't have just come in to existence!”

“Ok, so where did god come from”

“Oh hes always been there, Allllll things are possible with god!”

Of course anything is possible when you just pluck it out of thin air and make it up in the first place! Its called FICTION. I'd get more sense if i argued with a rock.

Quote:
theologically, I don't see any of our stands proven wrong.

Prove them RIGHT. “My faith is all the proof i need” Your faith and belief mean squat!

As i said, the only reason GOD hasn't been proven wrong is because its such a stupid moronic impossible “theory” to begin with! If something is that stupid impossible and outlandish to start with there is no way you can prove it wrong. I here by decree that there are small mutant dwarf like people with 6 eyes 3 arms and 5 legs under the earths crust that live on pixie dust. Science hasn't disproved it there for i am right. How can you even argue with stupidity such as that. If someone does say that the reaction isn't “Well so far we haven't proven you wrong, so congratulations you must be right!” Its Madness!

Something is WRONG until proven RIGHT, not RIGHT until proven WRONG.

Your pitiful bunch of ingrates fill me with hatred precisely because i DO think.

“bleeh, believing what scientists say. So closed minded!”

No! because they are LEARNED men. INTELLIGENT men. More so than you or i or 90% of the population or someone who has read one book more times that someone else has read the same book and then claim to know it all! It's just trash.

I'm not going to listen to this utter arse gravy of the highest calibre any longer. I have had it with you lot. If your goal was to piss me right off and create even more contempt than i had before for you people then congratulations. Just completely and utterly infuriating.

Seldom have i had this misfortune of coming to such a place expecting to find people with some common ground sharing the same interest only to be pooped upon from a great height at every turn, housing some of the most down right rude and obnoxious self centred self righteous people I've ever talked to! Just because they believe in Jesus this and god that, or are the biggest collectors of this or that. Does that make you a good person? No. Just a bit of a tosser! No desire to stay here one moment longer. Good afternoon.
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Old 04-03-2008, 02:27 PM   #72
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"Pooped upon," indeed, Gary. Since arguing with rocks is such an vitriol-inducing activity for you, I suggest you either learn how to engage in civil discourse, or just leave these threads entirely alone. Continuing as you are could easily result in your not being able to continue at The Raven as you are, capische?
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Old 04-03-2008, 02:51 PM   #73
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Guess you didn't quite understand my last paragraph.
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Old 04-03-2008, 04:05 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary2880


Seldom have i had this misfortune of coming to such a place expecting to find people with some common ground sharing the same interest only to be pooped upon from a great height at every turn, housing some of the most down right rude and obnoxious self centred self righteous people I've ever talked to! Just because they believe in Jesus this and god that, or are the biggest collectors of this or that. Does that make you a good person? No. Just a bit of a tosser! No desire to stay here one moment longer. Good afternoon.


OH-OH, Did Clinton find his way back, please check!
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Old 04-03-2008, 04:18 PM   #75
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What are you twittering on about.
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