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Old 07-20-2010, 09:36 PM   #101
Attila the Professor
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocket Surgeon
Thanks for being so candid, it should only help to illuminate.

I can only echo this. You've put a lot of yourself out there here, and I commend you for it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt deMille
I lean towards extra-terrestrial intervention for ancient works simply due to their seeming obsession with the stars (and by extension, outer space). If extra-dimensional beings built something, would outer space have any more meaning to them than to us? Maybe, but maybe not. It's 50/50. But since most if not all ancient enigmas of structure seem to point to the stars, I'm playing the odds that any non-human intervention was due to extra-terrestrial beings who thus came FROM the stars, rather than extra-dimensional ones.

I do have some instincts with regards to this portion of the topic, though. My frame of thought on this has always tended towards the direction that it's no surprise that many different cultures across the globe have built structures that seem to be oriented towards the heavens. Whether the emphasis in a culture is on the sun, the stars, or on a broader conception that that is where the most prominent of all the gods is/are, it seems natural that there will be an effort to reach those heights to whatever extent is possible. (Clearly, I'm thinking of the Tower of Babel narrative a bit here.) In this line of thought, it's not that pyramids are some manner of extraterrestrially granted structure (I'm not saying that you're saying that, necessarily, Matt, but it's commonly posited), but that they are the most obvious structures (smaller tiers upon larger tiers, and not dissimilar to hills and mountains) on which to reach such heights. And when we're talking about societies so deeply involved in their conceptions of the divine, whatever lengths they might go to, with so much of their mental, physical, and material resources going into the construction of various temples, monuments, and memorials, it's not that surprising to me that they were capable of some rather impressive feats of engineering.
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Old 07-20-2010, 09:48 PM   #102
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True to your word, you're handling this well. What precipitated the "battery of psychological tests?

I gotta admit, I thought this was where you were going to ask him if he was menstruating:
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Dr. Peter Venkman: Alice, I'm going to ask you a couple of standard questions, okay? Have you or any of your family been diagnosed schizophrenic? Mentally incompetant?
Librarian Alice: My uncle thought he was Saint Jerome.
Dr. Peter Venkman: I'd call that a big yes. Uh, are you habitually using drugs? Stimulants? Alcohol?
Librarian Alice: No.
Dr. Peter Venkman: No, no. Just asking. Are you, Alice, menstruating right now?
Library Administrator: What's has that got to do with it?
Dr. Peter Venkman: Back off, man. I'm a scientist.

My thread-jacking comment aside, I'm glad to see that this thread is back on the rails. I think this is a subject that deserves a fair and balanced debate.
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Old 07-20-2010, 09:51 PM   #103
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Thanks.

In '99 I lost a lot of friends wholesale. Basically, my life fell apart. It's tough when the woman you love betrays you because she's been "wormtongued" by a bunch of religious nuts. They turned her against me because I study UFOs. Basically, they all wanted her for themselves, but they had to get me out of the picture first. For that, they played the Bible card, and she caved. I lost her, and of course, all the conspirators as friends. It was a tough time.

These days, I sometimes wonder and laugh about how, after I was gone, they all turned on each other, since only one of them could have gotten the girl anyway. Idiots.

At the request of my family I went to see psychiatrists. Not for my belief in UFOs (my parents never doubted the story), but just for the sheer depression. I tried all the pills they could throw at me. I was a regular lab rat for every new anti-depressant Walgreens was peddling for a few years. Mind you, these were perscriptions, not street drugs, and they had little to no effect anyway. Like I said before, seeing aliens will girt your mind against pretty much anything this world can throw at you. It steels your subconscious and conscious minds alike. No Xanax or Ambien or anything else were going to make me say "Oh, maybe aliens aren't real . . ." BS! I saw 'em, I lived it, I KNOW they're real. It'll take tougher drugs than what Walgreens has to change that.

Anyway, it was mostly tests. Lots of paper tests, like gauging depression, suicidal possibilities, etc. I did come away diagnosed with stress, depression, ADHD and obsessive-compulsive disorder, but to me, most people have these things in today's society. I think most people overrate the severity of such conditions. "He's got ADHD? Oh no! Put him in a special school!" Well, that special school is just going to separate him further from daily reality. Life's tough. Deal with it. We all have handicaps. Don't make yours an excuse, or you just lower your own sense of self-worth. Problems will continue to come, and you can't run from them all. The best thing to do is take 'em head-on, adapt to the handicap, and build your inner strength. Self-confidence is much more helpful than any special schooling.

I stopped taking any and all medicine cold turkey six years ago and I'm less stressed, less depressed, and have a better attention span than ever. Maybe those drugs work for some people, but not for me. Just give me a treadmill, some pro-wrestling music on my MP3, and someone saying "You can't eat a whole pizza then run five miles!" Yeah? Just watch me! THAT'S my drug of choice.

Anyway, through all the visits to the various psyches, the pills didn't effect me, and my story never changed (meaning I did not embellish it for sympathy, as was one of many accusations, nor did I try to hide it any longer -- I let it out, though that was not an embellishment, since a few close friends had already heard it in full years before).

I went through the gauntlet of tests simply trying to deal with things in a civilized manner. I was willing to explore options. Bottom line, the only thing that really helped was being a bit like Rocky or Indy: Suck it up, get tougher than life, and go on with my head held high. It took a few years but I did it. And I never faltered. I didn't "find religion" to save me, change my principals or anything. I just healed up and fought on.
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Old 07-20-2010, 09:54 PM   #104
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I gotta admit, I thought this was where you were going to ask him if he was menstruating:


My thread-jacking comment aside, I'm glad to see that this thread is back on the rails. I think this is a subject that deserves a fair and balanced debate.

Heh! Good one, Indy's Brother. Ghostbusters went through my mind as well. I appreciate the joke, though. With Ghostbusters, it's a compliment!
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Old 07-20-2010, 09:56 PM   #105
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I do have some instincts with regards to this portion of the topic, though. My frame of thought on this has always tended towards the direction that it's no surprise that many different cultures across the globe have built structures that seem to be oriented towards the heavens. Whether the emphasis in a culture is on the sun, the stars, or on a broader conception that that is where the most prominent of all the gods is/are, it seems natural that there will be an effort to reach those heights to whatever extent is possible. (Clearly, I'm thinking of the Tower of Babel narrative a bit here.) In this line of thought, it's not that pyramids are some manner of extraterrestrially granted structure (I'm not saying that you're saying that, necessarily, Matt, but it's commonly posited), but that they are the most obvious structures (smaller tiers upon larger tiers, and not dissimilar to hills and mountains) on which to reach such heights. And when we're talking about societies so deeply involved in their conceptions of the divine, whatever lengths they might go to, with so much of their mental, physical, and material resources going into the construction of various temples, monuments, and memorials, it's not that surprising to me that they were capable of some rather impressive feats of engineering.

Indeed. Rain falls from the sky. The celestial spheres are up in the sky. Birds are able to fly in the sky. The sky is mysterious, unattainable. There are a myriad of reasons for why a people would pay rapt attention to the heavens.

And the building of wonders was the natural first step for people who had made the necessary qualifications of an agriculture-based "civilization" (which vary, of course). These civilizations had a bountiful amount of available manpower for labor due to the existence of a small elite often associated with the gods themselves. I like to bring up the example of the mathematician Hero allegedly inventing steam power in Alexandria during the beginning of the Roman Principate. Such a useful invention was not harnessed for labor activities, but rather for the rather tacky idea of opening temple doors. But of course, why would the Roman elites care much for mechanical advancements when a huge amount of slaves were at their disposal to do the work for them?

Getting back to the pyramids under the Great Lakes . . . am I to understand that you have no more information regarding them? That seems to be what you imply.
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Old 07-20-2010, 10:11 PM   #106
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I can only echo this. You've put a lot of yourself out there here, and I commend you for it.



I do have some instincts with regards to this portion of the topic, though. My frame of thought on this has always tended towards the direction that it's no surprise that many different cultures across the globe have built structures that seem to be oriented towards the heavens. Whether the emphasis in a culture is on the sun, the stars, or on a broader conception that that is where the most prominent of all the gods is/are, it seems natural that there will be an effort to reach those heights to whatever extent is possible. (Clearly, I'm thinking of the Tower of Babel narrative a bit here.) In this line of thought, it's not that pyramids are some manner of extraterrestrially granted structure (I'm not saying that you're saying that, necessarily, Matt, but it's commonly posited), but that they are the most obvious structures (smaller tiers upon larger tiers, and not dissimilar to hills and mountains) on which to reach such heights. And when we're talking about societies so deeply involved in their conceptions of the divine, whatever lengths they might go to, with so much of their mental, physical, and material resources going into the construction of various temples, monuments, and memorials, it's not that surprising to me that they were capable of some rather impressive feats of engineering.

I apologize for the multiple replies. Posts are popping up faster than I can reply to 'em, and I can't seem to get the "quote" option to work when editing a previous post (I tried merging 'em).

Attila, that is a very wise perception. Here's my take: Aliens in some way either inspired or helped build some monuments. Not all, but some.

I would like to cite the great pyramids at Giza. The three big ones were said to be made for the 4th Dynasty. But if you look at the pyramids of the 1st, 2nd, 3rd and then 5th dynasty and on, they're all drastically inferior, structurally speaking. Why and how did the technology and cultural infrastructure jump so much to go from a crumbling heap of a pyramid to this colossal engineering wonder? And then why did the next dynasty return to the old, inferior design? Where did this sudden burst of knowledge come from and why did it vanish as quickly as it came? If it were an alien visitation, that would explain it 100%.

The theory I hold with is that the ancient Egyptians found the great pyramids at Giza, and then did their best at honoring them by trying to build their own around them (hence, all the lesser structures that were truly tombs) . But when the 4th Dynasty came along, they for some reason did not build pyramids to emulate the great ones. Maybe they couldn't afford it. But they slapped their name on it anyway. The Great Sphinx's head is clearly chiseled down to its current state. The disproportional nature really begs the question -- What face might have been upon it initially before an egomaniacal ruler had his own chiseled on?

In this theory, the great pyramids could have been built by anyone at any point in history. Returning a bit to the erosion issue, it would explain why they are weathered by rainfall (a climate which predated the Egyptians' arrival in that area) and the Egyptian-made lesser pyramids are not. Maybe Atlanteans made them. Or aliens.

An interesting book to look at is "Forbidden History". It has several chapters which make a strong case for the pyramids having been built as a sort of power station. Maybe aliens needed them for some power-supply purpose, then later gutted the machinery and left them rock there. We do much the same thing with old military bases. Lots of gutted bunks of pressed-concrete whose guns and other machinery have long been stripped away. Were a future society to find an old anti-submarine battery, it would be unwise for them to assume that the cold concrete walls were the only thing that was ever there. What's this circular dais for? Not a dance floor, I'm sure. Maybe it had a big gun there at one time. Maybe the 8" shafts in the Great Pyramid were for conduits or something. That would explain the copper fittings at their end discovered in '93.

Anyway, it's only one theory about one site.
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Old 07-20-2010, 10:23 PM   #107
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Montana Smith's first words were "There is no hard evidence".

Hard evidence may be shared with others, and even when it is it's still open to interpretation. What you've offered is personal proof, which cannot be demonstrated to somebody who hasn't shared your experiences. Because at least some of us here haven't shared it, we have to give you the benefit of doubt.

Is it insulting to question evidence that cannot be demonstrated?

The open-mind assumes that it is not closed to all angles of interpretation, which you have now stated:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt deMille
While I do not know if any of these beings were aliens from another planet, they certainly were not from here. Extra-terrestrial, extra-dimensional, the unknown -- Conventional science says none of it is real. Thus, if any one IS real (and they certainly are to me, I've seen 'em!), then all other "impossibilities" must be put back on the table as a possibility. I lean towards extra-terrestrial intervention for ancient works simply due to their seeming obsession with the stars (and by extension, outer space). If extra-dimensional beings built something, would outer space have any more meaning to them than to us? Maybe, but maybe not. It's 50/50. But since most if not all ancient enigmas of structure seem to point to the stars, I'm playing the odds that any non-human intervention was due to extra-terrestrial beings who thus came FROM the stars, rather than extra-dimensional ones.

You say you "lean towards extra-terrestrial intervention for ancient works simply due to their seeming obsession with the stars", whereas earlier you appeared convinced. This is an area of doubt, and the very thing I was warning in my posts.

I don't doubt the existence of aliens, because the law of averages and the numbers of planets and stars would imply that we aren't alone in this universe.

However, to claim for certain that the great works of mankind in ancient times were alien-assisted is a leap of faith. History is all about interpretation of evidence. Even a personal diary from the past is not hard evidence, since it is open to interpretration and the charge of fabrication or intentional untruth by the original writer. Your own experiences are also open to interpretation.

These are the basics that I was taught in the study of history.
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Old 07-20-2010, 10:36 PM   #108
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I would like to cite the great pyramids at Giza. The three big ones were said to be made for the 4th Dynasty. But if you look at the pyramids of the 1st, 2nd, 3rd and then 5th dynasty and on, they're all drastically inferior, structurally speaking. Why and how did the technology and cultural infrastructure jump so much to go from a crumbling heap of a pyramid to this colossal engineering wonder? And then why did the next dynasty return to the old, inferior design? Where did this sudden burst of knowledge come from and why did it vanish as quickly as it came? If it were an alien visitation, that would explain it 100%.

Firstly, there are no pyramids before the 3rd dynasty, and a mistake of that nature is suspect as to how much you've really thought about this. Secondly, while the process of building the pyramids themselves is not certain, we see the transition quite clearly. It's not like the pyramid was suddenly invented by Cheops (the first of the Great Pyramids pharoahs)--the first true pyramid was built by his father, Sneferu, and one of the pyramids that Sneferu built, "the Bent Pyramid," is a testament to the "trial and error" that pyramid-making went through (hardly implies an extraterrestrial presence). And in the 3rd dynasty, we see the step pyramids, which are a logical evolution from the mastaba, which were the tombs used by earlier pharoahs (not pyramids).

Later on, we see tons more pyramids, they just aren't as big as those of the 3rd dynasty, which was seemingly more wealthy and certainly experienced longer reigns than the norm. Not to mention that pyramid-building just hearkened to grave robbers--one of the real reasons why it was abandoned in later dynasties.
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Old 07-21-2010, 11:54 AM   #109
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Are you involved with or have you studied Scientology?
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Old 07-21-2010, 02:27 PM   #110
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I am not involved with scientology in any way. I actually didn't even know what it was until a few years ago, when some friends showed me the infamous South Park episode about it.

For a short while I worried some that scientology's alien-claim might, to some degree, undermine the serious research done in this field. But then, it would only do so for those who buy into media hype. Serious researchers know the difference between hoopla and facts. So I guess scientology doesn't worry me like it used to.

I did give Scientology a short study, just to see what everyone was complaining about. I live in Hollywood a few blocks from the Celebrity Center (the big castle-looking place) so I had to learn about this stuff eventually, if only so I didn't tick off the wrong person. What I found was pretty uninteresting. Just another religion, really. I see it as no more or less valid than Christianity, Wicca, Norse myths, or literally believing in Lord of the Rings.

But, my theories, beliefs and knowledge were all founded long ago. Scientology was a recent addition to my understanding of this jungle called human civilization, and scientology's practices and beliefs did not and do not have any effect on me whatsoever. If people want to believe it, fine for them. Although I do wish all religions were taxed, and if they're going to continue to circumvent laws, then I feel I shouldn't be taxed for buying Lord of the Rings books or Star Wars DVDs, since I get my "feel good fantasy" and "words of wisdom" from Gandalf and Yoda.

Personally, I'm not religious in any way. I tried being Christian in my youth, but evidence to a larger and more enigmatic universe swayed me from the dogma of the Bible. These days, I just see each and every religion -- from Christianity to Scientology -- as the same thing: A primitive attempt to explain the unexplainable. Man-made, earthcentric, egocentric, flawed fast-food packaging of the universe and of life. I'm the antithesis of all religions -- My faith is the unknown. I have faith that the universe will always keep us guessing. Who wants everything explained? The fearful do. The brave embrace the fact that the cosmos is filled with mysteries. The human spirit is an adventurous one. Religion kills the spirit by saying it knows everything and binds you to rules. Truly helping your spirit is in shunning those rules, asking questions, and exploring the mystery.

Short version: I'm not a scientologist, nor a religious person in any way.

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Old 07-21-2010, 03:04 PM   #111
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Personally, I'm not religious in any way. I tried being Christian in my youth, but evidence to a larger and more enigmatic universe swayed me from the dogma of the Bible. These days, I just see each and every religion -- from Christianity to Scientology -- as the same thing: A primitive attempt to explain the unexplainable. Man-made, earthcentric, egocentric, flawed fast-food packaging of the universe and of life...Religion kills the spirit by saying it knows everything and binds you to rules. Truly helping your spirit is in shunning those rules, asking questions, and exploring the mystery.

This makes perfect sense to me. It was the part of your original statement that was least controversial to my own reasoning. It was also this part of the statement that lead me into challenging the other part, about knowledge of the alien reality.

Maybe this was the point that made the derailing of this thread inevitable, before it began: as you began with the controversy, and inferred that you had the answers.

However, you now admit that you're also an explorer into these mysteries, though an explorer who is better informed than most, due to personal experience. This is the element of doubt and interpretation that I have been arguing for all along. Doubt is not an accusation of falsehood - by its very nature it implies that there are things as yet unknown or unproved to the 'mainstream'.

The historian does not accept every text from the past as the truth, but challenges it, and in the end assigns it a level of probablility. As the probability rises from the collection of sources, so a mainstream history is created.

When I've researched non-mainstream theories, originally Daeniken, Mooney, and Charroux for ancient history, and then the 'ufo-technology' of the WWII era, I've always come up against brick walls, where the evidence ends with unreliable sources. The same can said of the mythology that surrounds Admiral Byrd's expeditions in the Antarctic, or Doenitz's claim that he created a fortress for Hitler in the Antarctic.

Nevertheless, I have always found the theories fascinating, both for aliens and for the super-technology and reversed-technology of WWII, and the fantastic idea that a German rocket reached the Moon during the war, and Mars with Japanese aid after the war.

I cannot, however, make the leap of faith to turn the theories into fact, as exciting and as world-changing as this would be.

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Old 07-21-2010, 03:39 PM   #112
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That is a very reasonable position, Montana. I'm glad we're finally coming to understand one another better.

If I may offer some helpful advice, though. Ignore Von Daniken. Unfortunately, too often the media fixates on Von Daniken and thus pins too much credibility of the larger issue on his works. This in turn guides those new or not well read on the subject into troubled waters. Von Daniken has interesting ideas and theories. That's good in as far as spurring investigation. But much better research has been done.

The pop-culture fixation of Von Daniken is comparable to saying all of Spielberg's movies were terrible if everyone kept focusing on 1941 or War of the Worlds. What about Indy? Jaws? Close Encounters? Private Ryan? Etc.

There are much better books out there on the subject. Thousands of them. I said it before and I'll say it again, Graham Hancock's work is at the top of the mountain (or should I say, pyramid). His books are incredibly well researched and give all the evidence one could want. He purposefully makes his books very thick in order to include every detail he possibly can to support his hypothesis, as sound research should. I find it heartening that his works have become so well respected that many bookstores (including big boxes like Barnes & Noble) have stopped stocking them in the "new age" category and actually shelve them under "history" (and if the store is versatile enough, "archeology").
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Old 07-21-2010, 05:14 PM   #113
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That is a very reasonable position, Montana. I'm glad we're finally coming to understand one another better.

I'm glad, too. Now that we've found a middle ground, I'm struggling to find the right words so as not to lose it.

When this began you were very assertive of an alien reality, which the mainstream are overlooking. At that time you were reluctant to reveal the reasons for your certainty (for obvious reasons).

Since then you've revealed a lot of personal details, which was brave, but also made for uncomfortable reading, since they were so personal. Psychoanalysis by web-forum isn't a journey I would recommend to others! However, through that journey you've revealed uncertainties that were not apparent from your initial statement. Would it be true to say, then, that your personal experiences, and the manner in which you interpreted them, lead you first to reconsider mainstream history. And second, upon reconsidering, the alien aspect became the most likely answer. It would adjust your initial statement from "my knowledge of the alien reality" to "my knowledge of the likely alien reality."

This may seem a pedantic point, but it is, I think, where the middle ground lies. It's the area where evidence may be analysed for the most probable answer. (e.g., for argument's sake I could agree that aliens exist, but that they didn't build the pyramids).

When it appeared that you were asserting you had the answers, it implied that there could be no discussion, and we would merely be awaiting a litany of answers. The alternative, that we are all on a journey of discovery, unbound by faith, with clear heads and clear senses, putting history to the test, is a much more exciting and "entertaining" prospect.

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If I may offer some helpful advice, though. Ignore Von Daniken. Unfortunately, too often the media fixates on Von Daniken and thus pins too much credibility of the larger issue on his works. This in turn guides those new or not well read on the subject into troubled waters. Von Daniken has interesting ideas and theories. That's good in as far as spurring investigation. But much better research has been done.

The pop-culture fixation of Von Daniken is comparable to saying all of Spielberg's movies were terrible if everyone kept focusing on 1941 or War of the Worlds. What about Indy? Jaws? Close Encounters? Private Ryan? Etc.

There are much better books out there on the subject. Thousands of them. I said it before and I'll say it again, Graham Hancock's work is at the top of the mountain (or should I say, pyramid). His books are incredibly well researched and give all the evidence one could want. He purposefully makes his books very thick in order to include every detail he possibly can to support his hypothesis, as sound research should. I find it heartening that his works have become so well respected that many bookstores (including big boxes like Barnes & Noble) have stopped stocking them in the "new age" category and actually shelve them under "history" (and if the store is versatile enough, "archeology").

Daeniken was my first contact years ago, then Mooney and Charroux. I know that Daeniken has been debunked, almost certainly by himself in admitting that he created evidence to strengthen his theories.

If Hancock's books are as good as you say, then they would at least provide jumping off points for investigation into the more problematic parts of our history.

With my interest in the Antarctic expeditions of Richter and Admiral Byrd I got the book Arktos: The Polar Myth in Science, Symbolism and Nazi Survival, by Jocelyn Godwin. Still haven't done more than dip into it, though. My renewed interest in German ufos and super-technology came from Hellboy! I gathered thousands of pages of information, then expanded it in all directions, such as the mind-control myths and stories of the Montauk site. The hollow earth is a favourite myth, hence the Arktos book, and a pulpy paperback by Warren Smith, entitled This Hollow Earth. So you see, I have an interest in the weird world of what-ifs? But I realistically stop short before belief - but that's the eternal skeptic in me.
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Old 07-22-2010, 09:39 AM   #114
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Will chat some more when I return . . . headin' out of town for a few days. Please, others, keep this thread going in the meantime. It's starting to get more interesting.
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Old 07-22-2010, 09:52 AM   #115
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I'm reminded of the Epilogue to Max McCoy's "Hollow Earth" and the difficulties facing assorted theorist of the time substantiate their claims as "maddening".
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Old 07-22-2010, 03:02 PM   #116
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Hey everyone, it's nice to see that this thread has taken a turn for the better.

I do have more questions for Matt, but I will wait for his return.

In the meantime, I found an interesting video of someone taking us as close to Area 51 as you can get.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=883T2OyNV0M

I figured this would be a nice littler intermission.
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Old 07-22-2010, 03:41 PM   #117
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Here's food for thought. Aliens, ancient astronauts, what have you might in fact be technologically and biologically advanced humans from the future. I mean what better way to study the past with limited contamination. Can't change the past with something that people have been seeing for years. Alexander the great even wrought of a ball of shineing light that watched him lay siege to a city for three days before a beam of light shot out of it and struck a wall letting him conquer the city. Now I know what I just said about contaminating the time line but look at it as more like a theme park ride, they have all these rules and regulations that need to be followed to let you on, but once the ride has moved out of eye sight you can basic do whatever you want. It could Also explain why there is no evidence of tools or such left behind, they have to come back with every thing they left with.

So what do you think?
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Old 07-22-2010, 03:44 PM   #118
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So what do you think?

I think that if you're right, our far-flung descendants have both extreme technological ability and a severe lack of prudence and moral sense...so your theory has a certain plausibility.
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Old 07-22-2010, 03:49 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by time-raider
Alexander the great even wrought of a ball of shineing light that watched him lay siege to a city for three days before a beam of light shot out of it and struck a wall letting him conquer the city.

Where'd you hear that?
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Old 07-22-2010, 04:04 PM   #120
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I saw it on the history channel the were doing one of those episodes about ufos throughout history and some of the more famous people to have seen them. The person talking said that it was in one of his journals.
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Old 07-22-2010, 06:09 PM   #121
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Originally Posted by RaideroftheArk
Hey everyone, it's nice to see that this thread has taken a turn for the better.

I'd say rather more cordial, than actually better. I feel like I should start talking about my zebra mussel theory again. I mean, the last couple pages have been merely a continuation of wild theories without a willingness to discuss their veracity or an existence of facts to back them up, besides the History Channel. Oh, and there was a large amount of Matt's background presented, which although providing insight as to why he believes what he does, fails (even if true) to really provide any evidence/information regarding ancient aliens.

If I had known that this thread was intended to be a show-and-tell, and a circle-jerk of unsubstantiated claims with no effort/desire made to critique or defend said claims in any way, I wouldn't have bothered. I mean, I said in the thread that preceded this one that I'm a big fan of Coast to Coast AM (though back when it had Art Bell more than now), and enjoy hearing these sorts of theories--but only when provided with some evidence and an atmosphere conducive to debate.

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Old 07-22-2010, 08:09 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by Gabeed
If I had known that this thread was intended to be a show-and-tell, and a circle-jerk of unsubstantiated claims with no effort/desire made to critique or defend said claims in any way, I wouldn't have bothered.
deMille's vapid and meandering replies to my specific questions were a real turn-off. When he returns, I'll have a "tête-à-tête" with him re: the world map pattern and the Great Lakes thing but it hardly seems worth the bother...
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Old 07-22-2010, 11:56 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by Stoo
deMille's vapid and meandering replies to my specific questions were a real turn-off. When he returns, I'll have a "tête-à-tête" with him re: the world map pattern and the Great Lakes thing but it hardly seems worth the bother...
i think he was talking about ley lines. it's big in the paranormal world. something about energy lines that move through the earth and older cultures were in tune with them and built their places of worship on them. and while i don't believe in them, i do find the whole subject interesting enough to google it.
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Old 07-23-2010, 02:03 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by teampunk
...while i don't believe in them, i do find the whole subject interesting enough to google it.

That's the line I take with these ideas. For me they belong in the weird world of what-if? Like ghosts and psychic powers and all the other oddities that claims are made for, but which lie just at the edge of our reality. It's the stuff that fills pages of fiction, but because people also claim to witness and experience these phenomena, they also appear in works presented as non-fiction. Over time the 'evidence' grows and the numbers of 'non-fiction' books grow until these theories start pushing into the mainstream by popular demand.

But, the question remains: is it myth or reality? On which side of belief does the conspiracy lie? Is there a conspiracy by the mainstream to conceal the 'truth'? Or is there a marketing campaign to carve out a niche for book sales, lecture tours in the field of pseudo-science and pseudo-history? A conspiracy to create a conspiracy theory.

I suppose it's instinctive in man to find connections between things, to find patterns and make sense out of chaos. It's probably also instinctive to wonder at mystery and to see the world of the strange as more alluring than that of the mundane. The first attempts made to explain the sun, the moon, the stars, the seasons, the weather, and the geography of the visible earth, are those that probably gave rise to religions and faith.

Something like a ley line is a pattern seen on a map, yet there is a choice of points to connect. The world is filled with ancient sites, and each one was siginificant to their creators. Reason would say that they couldn't all fit a recognizable pattern, if such a pattern existed. Yet ley lines have always been the least interesting of the theories to me.

The other problem I have with viewing the theories as serious theories about our past, is that from the books I've read, and the photographs they've presented, the interpretation of them by their authors is open to re-interpretation by others. Just as mainstream historians continually re-interpret even the most mundane of historical findings.

The ancient alien version of our history is an interrpetation that, in one way, is a short cut to explaining the past. In another way it's also a longer route, since it involves wrting out portions of history that have been taken to be more likely.

History is always shrouded in the cloak of 'what-if?' Even the facts about our recent past are hotly debated to find the 'truth' of the matter. New material is always likely to come to light and change our perceptions, and force the re-writing of things we thought we knew. Our view of the past can never really be said to be complete, until we've excavated every scrap of the earth for clues.

Therefore, I am more willing to follow the more likely representations of our past, while maintaining an interest in the less likely, because they provide a fascinating alternate history, and even in themselves can prompt further investigation into mainstream theories.
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Old 07-23-2010, 03:01 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by teampunk
i think he was talking about ley lines.
Hi, Punk. I think so, too but it would have been nice if deMille had stated that from the beginning (rather than the whole 'go-look-it-up-yourself' routine.) How & why the Great Lakes are a vital part of the supposed 'symmetry' is something to be challenged...
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