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Old 10-11-2005, 07:21 AM   #51
indyt
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Thats cool, we can agree to disagree. I am glad we can have conversation without getting ugly. But if you would ever like to talk about the matter of God, Christ or salvation in the future, I would be glad to partner with you on that.
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Old 10-11-2005, 07:28 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by indyt
Thats cool, we can agree to disagree. I am glad we can have conversation without getting ugly.

especially with CH.
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Old 10-11-2005, 01:03 PM   #53
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"if you would ever like to talk about the matter of God"

Don't hold yer breath kiddo...
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Old 10-12-2005, 03:17 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by temple of john
Though I respect your opinion, I think it important to not mix science with Theology. There are certain facts proven true by science. The Bible in my mind, should not be taken literally. I believe it more to tell stories of morality, God's laws, etc. Though I think some of what the Bible says may be true, most are just stories meant for children.

Science is not infallible. Neither is religion. Sadly, there are extremists in both who will tell you otherwise. For every St. Jerome, we have Steven Hawking locking himself in a room for two weeks and then coming out to claim he'd invented "time travel".

Naw, as a scientist (as much as that means in my current situation), I tend to believe that there is no logical reason to dismiss the existence of God. Those who feel otherwise are welcome to their opinions.

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Old 10-12-2005, 10:19 PM   #55
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Science doesn't CLAIM to be infallible...
The MEN who created religion would have us believe it was...

That's one of the big important differences to me...
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Old 10-12-2005, 10:55 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by ClintonHammond
Science doesn't CLAIM to be infallible...
The MEN who created religion would have us believe it was...

That's one of the big important differences to me...

An interesting point. If I may respond, Clinton (respectfully),

As a scientist I know plenty of scientists (personally, professionally, and from afar) who DO believe that science is infallible, and claim as much. Merely using different words for infallibility does not change the basic intent of many prominent and well meaning scientific minds.

To me, there really is no difference. Religious fundamentalists would have you believe that theirs is the only true interpretation of faith, and that anyone who disagrees with them is not only an idiot and of dubious sanity, but also bound for hell.

Scientific fundamentalists would have you believe that theirs is the only true interpretation of reality, and that anyone who disagrees with them is not only an idiot and of dubious sanity, but also bound for academic disgrace. (Which as a scientist is pretty much hell - just ask David Irving).

In 1500, the Church was firmly convinced that the earth was the center of the universe. In 1800, Science was firmly convinced that space was filled with lumineferous ether. Men of faith and science questioned both these views, and were persecuted for them.

Simply claiming that science is not as likely to error because it is not based upon "faith" merely ignores that "faith" is often required in formulating scientific hypotheses. It is, to me, equally ludicrous to claim that the bible shouldn't be questioned because it is the "Word of God", as if human beings had the mental capability to full comprehend the intents of the Creator.

I tend to see it the way that Plato did "There is no absolute truth in the realm of the mundane".

For every Bishop who's claimed the ability to calculate the age of the earth based upon a few Biblical passages, there's a Steven Hawking who believes he can mathematically determine the exact age of the universe based upon a few computer projections.



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Old 10-13-2005, 01:35 PM   #57
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"I know plenty of scientists who DO believe that science is infallible"
Then they are NOT reputable scientists... plain and simple...

"For every Bishop.... there's a Steven Hawking"
The difference is Hawking admits when he's wrong...
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Old 10-13-2005, 02:23 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by ClintonHammond
"I know plenty of scientists who DO believe that science is infallible"
Then they are NOT reputable scientists... plain and simple...

"For every Bishop.... there's a Steven Hawking"
The difference is Hawking admits when he's wrong...

I beg to differ regarding their credulity. As would the Universities and institutions employing them. There is a difference between credulity and ethical responsibility. I didn't say I agreed with their assertions.

As for Hawking, I can't recall him ever admitting being wrong about anything.
Don't see a big retraction of "A Brief History of Time" appearing on my local bookshelves, let alone a list of errata. Oddly enough, I do see the Bishop of Utrecht repudiated by a number of prominent "religious" sources.

I should also point out that Mr. Hawking is one of those scientists who has gone on record for scientific infallibility. Having a large brain does not entitle one to claim supreme knowledge of any subject.

Interestingly, from a statistics point of view, the harder the science, the deeper the belief. Social science tends to be at the bottom of the spectrum in terms of belief in a higher power; hard sciences tend to top it out.

Irregardless, with all due respect, you seem to have missed my point(s)completely. Religious fundamentalists would find equal trouble buying into my arguments for science. C'est la vie. Everyone must have his passions, I suppose...

"Science can only be created by those who are thoroughly imbued with the aspiration toward truth and understanding. This source of feeling, however, springs from the sphere of religion. To this there also belongs the faith in the possibility that the regulations valid for the world of existence are rational, that is, comprehensible to reason. I cannot conceive of a genuine scientist without that profound faith. The situation may be expressed by an image: science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."
- Albert Einstein
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Old 10-13-2005, 02:54 PM   #59
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"I can't recall him ever admitting being wrong about anything"
He's not very wrong very often, but when he is, he's the first to admit it... (Though likely resistant and begrudgingly, of course...) when/if I get a chance to source you some examples I will....

"Irregardless"
No such word, speaking of credibility...
(sorry... personal pet-peeve...)

Anyway.... This has got way off topic.... I won't be holding my breath that "Noahs Ark" is gonna be 'discovered' any time soon.... indeed at all....
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Old 10-13-2005, 03:09 PM   #60
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Wow, I love these discussions. As an agnostic, I will say that the idea of grownups believing in invisible deities is interesting at best. The Bible is an excellent resource for morals and many things that are written in this great book could conceivably have happened. I consider it a “must-read” for everyone. I also consider it a work of fiction loosely based on events that were perceived to be true. It is in no way fact, until it can be proven otherwise.

There are so many items were demonstrated to have been borrowed from other cultures. “Woman from Man,” “The Great Flood,” “The Creation,” etc. All have been done before, most many times. The argument should not be “if so many cultures wrote about these events, why couldn’t they be true?” The real question is one of timeline. “Why are these two stories so similar when they are written thousands of years apart?” The answer is most likely that one culture borrowed and edited the story from another to suit their needs and beliefs as they evolved.

The Bible cannot be taken literally. Read 101 Myths of the Bible to see some glaringly obvious mistakes or interpretations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ”indyt”
After the flood the water would simply evaporate or be absorbed in the ground.

You are not making a valid point here. This is clearly impossible. Water can evaporate, but it has to evaporate to somewhere. Water is in a constant cycle -- it evaporates from the ocean, travels through the air, rains down on the land and then flows back to the ocean. It does not disappear never to be seen from again. Are you saying all this water is floating around in the sky? In a similar concept, you can put ice in a glass and then fill the glass to the brim with water. When the ice melts the glass overflows, right? Of course not. The earth maintains similar balance.

About 1.6 percent of the planet's water is locked up in the polar ice caps and glaciers. Another 0.36 percent is found underground in aquifers and wells. Only about 0.036 percent of the planet's total water supply is found in lakes and rivers. Keep in mind that water stays level. To raise the water over 30% of the earth’s land mass to a depth of 50 feet, for example, the water will have to raise 50 feet in the oceans as well. It is not physically possible. See link for figures

Quote:
Originally Posted by ”TennesseeR”
They would not have to carry a cocker spaniel, and a bulldog, and a lab, etc, only a pair of dogs, a pair of horses, etc.
But for this argument to be valid, religious folks have to take into account that there are many species now. If we derived many different species from one, isn’t that part of evolution? I realize that is a bad word to the religious, but it happens. If it happened to the animals, why not people? Not necessarily drastically, like from apes either.

Religion is faith-based. There are probably some facts, but the majority of religion is that you need to believe in something that cannot be seen or proven. If you are bad you will be punished and if you are good you will be rewarded. Just like Santa Claus. Show me the facts that prove God exists and I will be His biggest worshipper.

Until then, the Bible is not fact and simply a terrific collection of stories that have many excellent values. Also, one of the most violent books you will ever read.

To add some levity, have any of you heard of the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster? It is a humorous look at intelligent design. If you cannot disprove it beyond a doubt, you cannot ignore it. Interesting theory…
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Old 10-14-2005, 08:40 AM   #61
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"Religion is faith-based. There are probably some facts, but the majority of religion is that you need to believe in something that cannot be seen or proven. If you are bad you will be punished and if you are good you will be rewarded. Just like Santa Claus. Show me the facts that prove God exists and I will be His biggest worshipper. "

Hello Rick5150. I appreciate your post and that you are serious in your beliefs. I also like your quote above. You are correct, in Christianity you have to believe in something you cannot see. This,as you know because you seem to be a knowledgable person, is faith. We must have faith in order to please God. Jesus told Thomas that he believed because he saw, then Christ said BLESSED are those who believe and do not see. There is a spirit world that you cannot see. It makes you stronger to believe in something you cannot see.
I love your last quote about being His biggest worshipper if He is proved real; and that is why I am responding. I can give proof for His existence and may in future posts. I do not want you to think I am one who throws a bunch of info at you and expect you to accept it. I want you to believe, but that is something that must be reached on your own. The biggest proof that there is a God is that the universe exists. Even if there was a big bang, it had to come from somewhere. Biology teaches that life comes from life. There had to be something to create the big bang or the gases that caused it. Matter cannot come from non-existence. The only explanation is that it had to come from something that has existed forever, God. I say this not to get into anarugmentative debate, I believe we should discuss things on this board in a friendly matter;I do it for discussion and in hopes that you will believe. If you do or dont, I still would have concern for you regardless. Again, thank you for your post and hope we can discuss the matter in the future.
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Old 10-14-2005, 12:10 PM   #62
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"I can give proof for His existence"

Oh no you can't....

Cause there IS no such 'proof'
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Old 10-14-2005, 12:10 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ”Indyt”
Hello Rick5150. I appreciate your post and that you are serious in your beliefs. I also like your quote above. You are correct, in Christianity you have to believe in something you cannot see. This,as you know because you seem to be a knowledgable person, is faith. We must have faith in order to please God. Jesus told Thomas that he believed because he saw, then Christ said BLESSED are those who believe and do not see. There is a spirit world that you cannot see. It makes you stronger to believe in something you cannot see.


Thank you for your post. Remember, I mentioned I am an agnostic, not an athiest. I believe that there is something better than us, and I am open to anyone who can prove that to me. Faith comes in many forms. What makes your faith the correct faith? There are religions that worship multiple Gods. Are they wrong? Have you ever seen this quote?

“I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.”

It makes a good deal of sense on some level. I am just not an atheist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ”Indyt”
I love your last quote about being His biggest worshipper if He is proved real; and that is why I am responding. I can give proof for His existence and may in future posts. I do not want you to think I am one who throws a bunch of info at you and expect you to accept it. I want you to believe, but that is something that must be reached on your own. The biggest proof that there is a God is that the universe exists.

With all due respect, how can you possibly offer proof of God where millions of truly great minds have failed? The only thing equally as difficult as you proving that God exists is me proving He does not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ”Indyt”
Even if there was a big bang, it had to come from somewhere. Biology teaches that life comes from life. There had to be something to create the big bang or the gases that caused it. Matter cannot come from non-existence. The only explanation is that it had to come from something that has existed forever, God. I say this not to get into anarugmentative debate, I believe we should discuss things on this board in a friendly matter;I do it for discussion and in hopes that you will believe. If you do or dont, I still would have concern for you regardless. Again, thank you for your post and hope we can discuss the matter in the future.

Throughout the years, science has proven how many things were created. Many of these things that were thought to be miracles and evil spirits in the past, now have distinct causes, such as viruses and bacteria. We continue to learn and as we do, the Bible slowly holds less merit. It is all interpretation. Jesus walked on water. Yeah right. But if Jesus walked on ice – which is also water – no problem. It is nowhere near as dramatic though.

It is still THE book to beat as the original book of values. The Ten Commandments are a great start. Without them, nothing would stop the human race from killing itself as we raped and pillaged and killed each other until we cease to be. The problem is your own God cannot follow the rules. How many deaths is HE responsible for? He created us, yet every single one of us dies. That is not counting the ones where He really went out of his way for, such as drowning of everything that was not on the Ark, drownings in the Red Sea (although Moses had a hand in it, I suppose) and even turning folks into a pillar of salt.

I always find these arguments akin to the three-year old child who keeps asking “why?” each time you tell him something, until you finally reach a point where you have no answer (or refuse to continue answering). I am in no way trying to compare you to a three-year old, it is just the same thing to me when science shows up how something happens. The religious ask, well where did it come from? Science finds an answer. Religion asks “yeah, but where did that come from?” and it continues until finally there is no answer.

The difference is that science is moving ahead in leaps and bounds. We continue to learn more about virtually everything each day where religion is often satisfied by the notion that all was created by a supreme being. Imagine what a world it would be if we just allowed things to happen and called it God’s will. Your baby is very sick. Science has medication that can cure it? Who will you trust? Most people tend to go for the medication and cure their child. Then the religious step in and say that God allowed the scientist to find a cure. People tend to believe in what they need to believe.

It is a battle that we all fight every day. Wars are waged over religions where people are killing each other based on their faiths. Thou shalt not kill, but that goes right out the window as needed. Weird world, huh?

Indyt, it has been a pleasure discussing this with you. Thanks for that opportunity.
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Old 10-14-2005, 02:16 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ClintonHammond
"I can give proof for His existence"

Oh no you can't....

Cause there IS no such 'proof'

CH, I have a question. And this is not to try to be nosy or disrespectful. Usually your posts (that I have read), seem hostile when God is mentioned. I was just curious to know if you have ever had a bad experience in your past in regards to religion or something. Again, this is not a post to strike at you, and you certainly are not obligated to respond.
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Old 10-14-2005, 02:36 PM   #65
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I'm VERY anti-religion... I see it as, at best a tool of though control, and at worst it's a very dangerous WMD...

If I had my way, all religion would be forever banned for the good of the human race...

Bearing in mind that I make the distinction between Religion and faith... The latter I happen to think is very cool... Very personal, but very cool...

"bad experience in your past"
In my book, all experiences concerning organized religion are bad...
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Old 10-14-2005, 03:06 PM   #66
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I admit I agree with you as far as organized religion is concerned, to a point. I dont like it either. I cant stand hyprocrites, churches that turn into businesses, politics in the church, etc. In fact, I dont afficliate myself with "religion". I am not one to say that my "religion" is Christianity. I dont like the word. Yes, I am a Christian, a concervative, evangelical one at that. The difference is RELATIONSHIP. I have a relationship with Jesus Christ. That is all that it is about. Not a set of dos and donts, but being part of a family; having the opportunity to KNOW, love and be loved by the Creator of the universe. Christianity is not something to control someone. We all have our own will. God does not make anyone accept Him and never will. It is up to the individual. I do not attempt to spread the gospel because I am going to get a reward or something. I do it so that everyone else can live a joyful and abundant life, and eventually receive eternal life. I get nothing out of this; accept the fact that others are saved.

But getting back to organized religion, I believe America, as well as other nations have strayed from what "religion" or this "relationship" was intended to be.
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Old 10-14-2005, 03:58 PM   #67
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What is the difference between doing the best you can in life for yourself and your personal values, or doing it because a religion expects you to? What if you did everything by the word of the Lord, but you didn't do it on purpose. You were just really nice. Compare that to the avid churchgoer who knows the Bible inside and out and has moments of weakness. Is one better than the other?

Many people I speak to claim they go to church each week for a number of reasons. Some of them valid, but others are completely silly. One is the fear of going to hell. Another is it is a good insurance policy. Why risk your soul when you could be a good churchgoer? They make sure that they give during the collection, because we all know they are better people in God's eyes if they donate more money.

When fear and insurance are your reasons, you should start to rethink what you are doing, take a step back and think whether or not it makes sense to you. If so, go with it.

And be careful. There are many people who claim they can talk to God or that God has spoken to them. Usually they are sitting in towers taking shots at innocent people or in straight jackets.

I believe in faith, but also reality, fact and proof. If your belief in God makes you a better person, than I am happy you have found what you are looking for. But take charge of your life and take responsibility for your actions. Also take credit when you do something right. You do not need to thank God, unless you blame him when things go wrong as well.
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Old 10-17-2005, 10:01 AM   #68
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"We cannot afford to take mythology at face value...."

Or... to paraphrase a very good 'debunking The Da Vinci Code' kinda show last night...

"There is history and there is imagination... One cannot pretend that one is ever the other..."

It's just as applicable a rule here...
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Old 10-17-2005, 11:01 AM   #69
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Or that the "Holy Grail' is more than just the product of early medieval romantic fiction....

Or that pyramids will keep razor-blades sharp (Mythbusted!)

Or that sucking a penny will help you beat the breathalizer....

Good fiction, all... but fiction is all they are...
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Old 10-18-2005, 12:00 PM   #70
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To add to what Clinton just said, this is the best info in plain English that I have read:

http://skepdic.com/noahsark.html
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Old 10-18-2005, 12:41 PM   #71
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Really, I like Arizona, and i always thought it lacked water, but if you have ocean front . . . well maybe we should talk.
As I have not read the bible, was the Noah Story before or after Jack went up the beanstock?
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Old 10-18-2005, 12:57 PM   #72
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Oh yes the evil Dragon of Herpes . . . At least he only showed up a few times a year and now with new medical treatment . . .
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Old 10-18-2005, 01:23 PM   #73
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They HAVE to believe... cause if they don't believe that ONE story, it calls into question all the other stories in their book.... and if they have to question the stories in their book, they might have to start thinking for themselves...
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Old 10-19-2005, 04:23 PM   #74
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That bible book seems to be full of all kind of crazy stories, do you think it actauly started as like the tabloid of the day and some just collected all the best stories, like todays bile would be a bunch of junk like Michael Jackson is an alien, Madonna is a man type stories? Anyone?
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Old 10-20-2005, 04:31 AM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by temple of john
I think more likely they were used as stories to show morality and the consequences of disobeying God. I also believe the Catholic church has had a heavy hand in many of these stories.

Exactly! If there was not fear of consequences, where would the human race be? And people are falling for it because the Catholics were very good at making up stories. What is happening to the Catholic churches now that the priests are getting caught with their pants down everywhere? I have heard radio ads to "please come back and give the Catholic church another chance."

Many people are moving away from the Catholic religion due to this. The funny thing is that they have been so brainwashed throughout their lives that they move into another religion. Nobody seems to ask themselves why the very people who are supposed to be spreading the word of God do not seem to have a fear of that God. Is diddling young boys worth Eternal Damnation?

I can tell you why. He doesn't exist and they know it. Not in the sense that the Bible depicts Him as anyways.

It is, and always has been, about the money. I am stunned that people fall for the "rewards in heaven" line as well. Nobody can prove it, since you have to die to find out if it is true. The greatest deception ever and we are falling for it. If anyone has any money to lend me, I promise I will pay it back tenfold once we get to heaven. Any takers?
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