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Old 04-12-2006, 02:19 PM   #51
indyt
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You're so full of love CH, so full of love.
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Old 04-12-2006, 02:43 PM   #52
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I save my love for those that EARN it.... Not for those who when stymied, have to resort to ad hominem attacks....
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Old 04-12-2006, 02:56 PM   #53
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Wow...I would sure feel sorry for you kids if they have to earn your love. (if you have or plan on having any)
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Old 04-12-2006, 03:02 PM   #54
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Again with more ad hominem.....
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Old 04-12-2006, 05:02 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ClintonHammond

"I have seen Christ work in my life all of my life."
There's a guy who lives in the group home across the street... He's told me about some of the things he's 'seen'.. especially when he goes off his meds....

Well if that's how you feel, pass on the meds. If I'm crazy its quite the trip! I personally prayed for a blind eye and it was instantly healed, I've seen legs grow, broken legs heal (my own ankle in fact), gold fillings appear out of no where (wierd one), demons cast out, angelic visitation and yes...pass on the MEDS...I've heard the audible voice of God 2 times. This "crazy" religion is doing lots for me...why stop now?
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Old 04-12-2006, 05:06 PM   #56
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So called "faith healing" is one of the OLDEST scams in the book....

If yer duped by THAT, you need more than meds I'd wager......
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Old 04-12-2006, 05:08 PM   #57
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Stop with the personal attacks CH...stick to the topic on hand.
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Old 04-12-2006, 05:11 PM   #58
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I'm only responding like with like....
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Old 04-12-2006, 05:16 PM   #59
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It takes two to tango...

You can attack the post, but not the poster.

Just because someone attacked you personally...which from my point of view doesn't look that way (ie "you started it")...doesn't give you a right to lash back with personal attacks.

Show more restraint; if you can't, you've been warned.
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Old 04-12-2006, 05:23 PM   #60
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Just more of your personal 'vendetta' against me, so W....

1), Isn't this exactly the subject matter for a Private message?!?! So as to, at the very least, not drag the thread off topic?!?! Shouldn't a Mod also lead by example of behaviour?

2) Funny how you're the only one who EVER seems to have an issue with it, while turning a blind eye to the behaviour of others....

*shrug*

Need to see good evidence of how easily Faith Healing is debunked? Read some of the works of James Randi.... www.randi.org just for starters....
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Old 04-12-2006, 05:54 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by indyt
I understand you guys points. Like I said earlier, I have a relationship with Jesus Christ, a very real relationship with a real Being. This relationship does not include rules and regulations and legalism. Sadly that is what Christianity has become. There are many things I do not agree that the church is doing, especially the Western gentile Christianity of America. Nonetheless I still go to church to worship God, not for the people but for Him. I hate to say it, but modern Christianity and the modern day church have come a long way from what Chirst truly taught and is. I wish I could go back to the church in the book of Acts, now that was real worship.

Well said. Very well said, in fact.
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Old 04-12-2006, 06:36 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ClintonHammond
So called "faith healing" is one of the OLDEST scams in the book....

If yer duped by THAT, you need more than meds I'd wager......
How is it a scam when it is working? Time after time...myself included.
Of course there have been some horrible instances with the tv evangelists doing scams. But this is real. My friend was in a cast for a broken leg, 2 days after the broken leg we prayed, and he tore off the cast.
I can't give I witness account for this one but I have a friend that prayed for his aunt who was dead for 2 days...in the morg. They prayed over her and she walked from under the sheet.
But I can give eyewitness to dozens of instances of healing. Nevermind the audible voice and angelic visitation. Your being scammed in thinking these are all scams. It takes a lot of faith to believe that there is no God.
I haven't been to one big tv evangelsit conference so I know nothing about the fake healing. I can only speak about my group of friends and our own experiences. Healings that I encounter are no rare occasion, and there is nothing false about them.
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Old 04-12-2006, 06:40 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron H
You can attack the post, but not the poster.

Just because someone attacked you personally...which from my point of view doesn't look that way (ie "you started it")...doesn't give you a right to lash back with personal attacks.

Show more restraint; if you can't, you've been warned.

No worries Aaron. I don't have to defend my broken ankle that is apparenlty NOT healed...because these things don't happen.
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Old 04-12-2006, 10:28 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ClintonHammond
Just more of your personal 'vendetta' against me, so W....

1), Isn't this exactly the subject matter for a Private message?!?! So as to, at the very least, not drag the thread off topic?!?! Shouldn't a Mod also lead by example of behaviour?

2) Funny how you're the only one who EVER seems to have an issue with it, while turning a blind eye to the behaviour of others....

*shrug*

Need to see good evidence of how easily Faith Healing is debunked? Read some of the works of James Randi.... www.randi.org just for starters....
You just seem to stand out of the crowd. You draw such great attention to yourself.
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Old 04-13-2006, 12:47 AM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron H
You just seem to stand out of the crowd. You draw such great attention to yourself.
I have to admit, that's one of the most elegantly phrased slaps in the face I've read in quite some time.
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Old 04-13-2006, 12:05 PM   #66
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[quote=IndyJohan]It takes a lot of faith to believe that there is no God.

Thats what I have been trying to say.
And as far as the tv faith healers, yes, most of them I do not trust. It is God that heals, according to His will.
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Old 04-13-2006, 01:49 PM   #67
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"You just seem to stand out of the crowd"
Nothing stands out from the crowd better than the truth

"It takes a lot of faith to believe that there is no God."
Not at all... all one has to do is look at the overwhelming LACK of evidence...

"aunt who was dead for 2 days"
Bull.... show me the news-paper article... News that big would NOT have gone uncovered.... show me ONE shred of evidence..... Show me the coroners report...

I could MAKE UP fanciful stories about how I can fly, melt steel in my hands, run across water and other fantastic tales.... anyone who thought they were real would need to have their head examined

Last edited by ClintonHammond : 04-13-2006 at 02:10 PM.
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Old 04-13-2006, 03:15 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IndyJohan
It takes a lot of faith to believe that there is no God.

Actually, faith is the antithesis of knowledge and is not a factor in one's refusal to believe at all. Richard Dawkins said it best:

"Faith is the great cop-out, the great excuse to evade the need to think and evaluate evidence. Faith is belief in spite of, even perhaps because of, the lack of evidence."

Faith is an excuse to remain ignorant. Nothing more, nothing less.
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Old 04-13-2006, 03:55 PM   #69
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Faith is one possible human response to the "no-see-ums" in human existence. Skepticism is another. Disbelief is another. Denial is another. Knowledge and reason may have an impact on any of those responses, or it may not.

"Knowledge" (in the common understanding) is a very subjective and indistinct. You and another person may experience precisely the same thing and derive two entirely different sets of "knowledge" based on that common experience.

Further analysis and consideration may solidify knowledge to the point where it can be widely accepted or even considered "universal", but outside of very small mathematical and scientific circles... most knowledge never gets that far. Despite the bluster from intellectuals, the inherant value of "knowledge" is very, very subjective.

(Unless you are proposing some objective and transcendant standard of truth...)
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Old 04-13-2006, 04:05 PM   #70
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That's the 2nd time Richard Dawkins name has come up today on the various Message Boards I frequent...I'm gonna have to get my hands on some of his writing!
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Old 04-13-2006, 04:28 PM   #71
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I'm sorry that I dont record the hundreds of healings that happen quite frequently. I have no need or desire to prove anything to you, I know the truth of what I've seen/heard/felt/done.
I see a lot of this yet MOST of it takes place in the underground church in Nepal and China.
You seem to find articles AGAINST every little thing I say. How bout looking for some articles of some genuine healings that have happened. Oh, wait...there is no article or anything I could say anyway that would change the way you think.
Mmm..off the top of my head look up men such as Smith Wigglesworth, his faith is well recorded. Here's a few: http://www.sendrevival.com/testimoni...ised/index.htm
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Old 04-13-2006, 04:54 PM   #72
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Quoted from more web sites than I can shake a stick at

"Smith Wigglesworth (1859-1947) - faith healer who used violence to accomplish miracles (i.e., he hit people in order to heal them). He also claimed to raise the dead, although that claim was never confirmed."

emphasis mine.... again.... If I went around claiming I could fly, you'd want to see PROOF, right?!?! I sure hope you would....

Also if he was such a crap-hot healer, how come he couldn't heal his own daughter of her deafness?!?!?

Save your breath.... I'm sure you have some excuse about her 'faith' not being 'true' or some such that won't be much more than a load of hot air......

"there is no article or anything I could say anyway that would change the way you think."
Well, not so far.... I'm willing to see what you have to offer though..... But I'm going to continue to be VERY critical, yes.
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Old 04-13-2006, 05:32 PM   #73
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[quote=ClintonHammond]
Also if he was such a crap-hot healer, how come he couldn't heal his own daughter of her deafness?!?!?
[quote]
Why? Because he's not God. Not even Jesus healed eveyone in sight. What you think everyone is Healed all the time? Absolutly not. I'm not going to bring Jesus down to a simple humanitarian! Heck, when he returns to earth he is literally going to kill people! But that's a whole other topic. Wigglesworth DID use violence. But it worked. And it must have been God telling him to do so.
And there are many of his healings that had MANY eye witnessess. And you know they were healings because if they were not they would have killed people.
For instance, he was preaching in a church and a baby had died. The baby was brought to him. He picked it up and threw it across the room as far as he could and the baby came alive when it landed.
He would also literally punch cancer out of people. He put a shoe on a mans "leg stump"...instantly a foot grew into the shoe.
(non healing story) It was reliably recorded that John Westly was preaching to a crowd well over 2000 people. God came and all 2000 people fell to the ground utterly uncontious.
All this being said, My ankle is healed...I had a speech empediment when I was a child and it was healed. My best friend broke his leg...I prayed for it and it was instantly healed. Anyway, I can see this conversation is getting no where and we are so far off topic its not even funny. So I will say, if your athiest lifestyle is working for you....why are you in SOO much need of hearing more of my experiences and beliefs...and why are you soo defensive and bringing up articles or whatever you can to proove me wrong. Either way you will one day bow and confess.

Last edited by Johan : 04-13-2006 at 05:38 PM.
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Old 04-13-2006, 05:36 PM   #74
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IndyJohan, I don't mean to beat up on your faith or to imply that what you've witnessed is inaccurate or untruthful. I am a scientist, a skeptic and an agnostic, so I believe only what can be proven. Nothing else. I can generate a counter-argument for any claim or assertion you might submit, and you're right in assuming that you could never convert me to your system of beliefs. I do not subscribe to the idea of faith, although I sometimes envy those who do. Finally, I'm not finding articles to counter your every argument, I'm simply giving rebuttals with information I already have at my disposal. I see it as nothing more than a healthy argument or debate, but certainly nothing personal.

The history of the christian church is an interesting one from a purely academic standpoint. Its history does not affect my opinion of the doctrine itself, nor should it yours. It does make for some good reading and discussion, however, so I would recommend the works of Bart Ehrman to you if you're so inclined. Otherwise, this thread has grown tiresome and I'm retiring myself from it. Cheers.
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Old 04-13-2006, 05:46 PM   #75
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"you will one day bow and confess"
I bow to NOTHING.

"this thread has grown tiresome"
yes it has... I'm following HK out of here....

Bartender... get IJ here a pint, and a shot if he wants it... and put it on my tab.... I'll settle that up next time I'm in....

I'm gonna go look up more Richard Dawkins....
"Like computer viruses, successful mind viruses will tend to be hard for their victims to detect. If you are the victim of one, the chances are that you won't know it, and may even vigorously deny it. Accepting that a virus might be difficult to detect in your own mind, what tell-tale signs might you look out for? I shall answer by imaging how a medical textbook might describe the typical symptoms of a sufferer (arbitrarily assumed to be male)."

"1. The patient typically finds himself impelled by some deep, inner conviction that something is true, or right, or virtuous: a conviction that doesn't seem to owe anything to evidence or reason, but which, nevertheless, he feels as totally compelling and convincing. We doctors refer to such a belief as 'faith.'"

"If you have a faith, it is statistically overwhelmingly likely that it is the same faith as your parents and grandparents had. No doubt soaring cathedrals, stirring music, moving stories and parables, help a bit. But by far the most important variable determining your religion is the accident of birth. The convictions that you so passionately believe would have been a completely different, and largely contradictory, set of convictions, if only you had happened to be born in a different place. Epidemiology, not evidence."
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