Ya Know, For Kids! The Violence of Indy 4.

Primo

New member
I would like to see an escalation of the violence in Indy 4. While I wouldn't mind seeing Indy go Reservoir Dogs-style on some hostiles, I just don't think it fits with the rest of the series. That being said, I rather enjoyed the heightened sense of peril that the more violent Temple of Doom brought. I feared for Indy in a way I didn't in Last Crusade. I felt like anything could happen to him. He wasn't safe. He was up against some bad dudes who had no respect for human life. I was scared by and more intensely involved with the story because of the heightened violence swirling around in Temple.

Ditto Raiders. It had more than it's fair share of violence. Indy was shot, beaten and dragged. He was tore up by the end of the movie and we were more invested in him as a character because of it. We saw his suffering and sparked to his tenacity and heroism. The threat of violence is also tremedous in Raiders. The scene in The Raven where Toht holds the red-hot poker to Marion's eye is still thrilling and squirm inducing.

Violence is a key element of Indy's character and the series as a whole. Violence reveals character and provides more compelling action. In Crusade, I did not feel that heightened sense of danger because, in part, the violence was toned down (granted the tank scene was violent, but in a comedic way. Indy shot through three guys with one bullet). I feel the violence of the previous films had been toned down because of the backlash from Temple. Parents felt it wasn't appropriate for the kiddies. I believe this compromised the purity of the series somewhat. It robbed it of teeth to a certain degree.

I love Last Crusade, but I just didn't feel like I had been through the ringer by the movie's end like I had felt with Raiders and Temple. I want to be wrung out at the end of an Indy adventure. I want the tension to be unbearable at times. I believe the way this is done is by preseneting characters that we invest in emotionally and then precede to put them in the most genuinely dangerous and threatening situations imaginable. And don't just threaten; make good on those threats. Characters that we care about should be maimed and/or killed. Indy's journey should be as tough for us as it is for him.

Should the violence in Indy 4 be amped up or toned down. You know how I feel, what do you think?
 

Attila the Professor

Moderator
Staff member
The level of violence isn't something I'm terribly concerned with, as it can fit with most any tone (although I have this noirish notion of what I want that would fit with some brutality, to be sure).

One point I will raise is on the level of violence in Last Crusade. While I agree that it is more comic in many places, it's also, I think, the one in which the stakes are highest for the characters we know, at the end. Indy does, after all, apparently die for a minute or two when he appears to go over the cliff. The film had "Last Crusade," in the title, which as we have seen, can be misread to mean Indy's last adventure. The possibility of death was there. The shooting of Henry was a pretty serious hit to a character we'd become invested in as well, of course. We also have Marcus being knocked cold by men we next see trying to kill our heroes, and have no idea what happens to him for quite some time. If anything, the violence and danger is most character-based in Last Crusade.
 

Primo

New member
Agreed on the shooting of Henry Sr. That was great scene. Really hitting on all cylinders storywise and emotionally.

However, Marcus getting conked on the head was nothing compared to Marion's eye almost getting burned out of her head. Or Willie's heart almost pulled out of her chest. That carried almost no threat to me. The fact that the fellows incapacitated Marcus was sign enough that they did not intend to kill him. They could have slit his throat and dragged him off if they really meant business.

I'm talking about serious threat and grievious bodily injury here. For example, one of my favorite scenes in movie history is the scene in Marathon Man where Laurence Olivier drills holes in Dustin Hoffman's teeth in order to extract information. It is so intense and violent. In that moment we really don't know if Hoffman is gonna make it. We're right there with his character. Our minds are racing trying to think of how he can escape. How we can escape.

That's the level of danger and intensity that I'd love to see in Indy 4.

As far as the title goes, Last Crusade, doesn't hold much weight for me while I'm watching the movie. It never dawned on me that the title hinted at Indy's iminent doom. Even if it had occured to me, I'm not held in suspense by the title of a film. It's the actions of the characters that propell me through the story. I'm not in the theater thinking, "It's the Last Crusade, so Indy's gotta die." No, I'm watching people on screen make descisions that could have a violent outcome. That, to me, is exciting. However, since the threat of violence was diminished in Last Crusade, it became less exciting to watch the descisions and actions of the characters play out.

I do love your notion of a noirish brutality in the next Indy adventure. That jives with my imaginings of Indy 4 as well. I think noir films always have the looming threat of violence. It's almost like another character in the room. It adds such tension and excitement to the smallest action or line of dialogue. I'd love for Indy 4 to have that tone. Very cool.
 
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deckard24

New member
Definitely not toned down, but I'd say the same as ToD and RotLA! While RotLA is my all time favorite, ToD is a very close second and the darkness of the story is probably the reason. LC was a lot more lighthearted and fun. Not that that's a bad thing, but I just prefer a grittier and darker tone to most films. I'm sure we won't have another ToD style Indy film ever again, since now both Lucas and Spielberg agree it was too over the top.

If Live Free or Die Hard is any indication of the current trend with it's PG-13 rating and toned down violence and language, I'm willing to bet IJ4 will have it's share of bullets flying but will be a bit tamer.
 

Primo

New member
We're on the same page, my man. I prefer the rougher, darker Indy of Raiders and Temple. I do appreciate the levity of of Last Crusade and understand why it was made that way, but my favorite Indy is the raider. The man who gets hurt and gets drunk and almost charges foolishly and headlong to his death. The darker Indy. The grittier Indy.

By the way, how ridiculous is a PG-13 Die Hard film? Talk about neutering a great film series. What's the point? Can John McClane even say his trademark line, "Yippee kiyah, mother f***r!"? It's not Die Hard without a trash mouthed John McClane brutally killing terrorists. How severely will the film's content suffer language and violence-wise? I shudder to think.
 
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deckard24

New member
Primo, I think it's crap that LFoDH is getting a PG-13 rating! The trademark line I'm pretty sure I read will be missing, besides I can't recall the last time I hear motherf***er in a PG-13 movie. The studio wants a broader audience, and it's just another toned down movie marketing ploy to cash in on the under 18 crowd. It's like every crappy PG-13 horror movie that's been churned out left and right to make a buck.

As for IJ4 I'm just crossing my fingers that even though Indy will be older, he'll still be the badass he once was. I just hope Spielberg doesn't get too sentimental this time around. The rumored plot is already leaning towards it though.

Bring back the grittiness of Dr. Jones!
 

DarthLowBudget

New member
You get one use of the word **** in a PG-13 movie, as long as it isn't an explicit sexual reference. So in theory we could hear the trademark line in LFoDH.
 

Gear

New member
First off, all of the Indy movies are pretty violent, I see what your saying about LC having milder violence than ToD but in all of the films something nasty happens to someone, like somebody plunging into multant lava, a Nazi being crushed by a tank or a big guy getting splatterd by a propeler. Indiana Jones is a bad ass. He's a dirty fighter. I first saw the Indy movies as a kid and I thought they were- and I still do think they are AWSOME! Ever sence I saw him Indy's been my hero. The violence wasn't intirerly what made him so cool to me, I just loved him-period. All elements of him. My self, I like the sharp contrast between mild mannerd colledge professor to ruged, dangerous and presistant arceologist. I dont want to see Indy turn into an exadurated Rambo in IJ4 but I do want to see some "OOO... THAT'S AWSOME!" moments in terms of guys getin' killed. I dont think I'll be disapointed, theres always a scene like that in the Indy universe. :)
 

Zorg

New member
Raiders was quite perfect considering violence - it was in balance with the rest of the film. I hope they'll take that as a guideline with Indy IV, and I really think they will.

That said I think Indy IV will have its fair share of comedy, and it's fine. I just hope not all of it is in the lines of "I'm getting too old for this ****". ;)
 

Gear

New member
An Indiana Jones movie must have violence. Not that I wouldn't like it if they didn't but violence is an element in Indy. I'm shure he's had some quiet archeological digs but in his searches, as we all know, he's made some bad enemies. In real life its quit nasty to see someone get shot through the stomach. Dudes dontn't worry, I'm shure the level of violence will not be to intense ( I dont mean "To intense" as in sickaning but as in too over the top) or too toned down. Dont'cha know it's gunna be- alright... Alright... Alright! ;)
 

Ray Delark

New member
Primo said:
I would like to see an escalation of the violence in Indy 4. While I wouldn't mind seeing Indy go Reservoir Dogs-style on some hostiles, I just don't think it fits with the rest of the series. That being said, I rather enjoyed the heightened sense of peril that the more violent Temple of Doom brought. I feared for Indy in a way I didn't in Last Crusade. I felt like anything could happen to him. He wasn't safe. He was up against some bad dudes who had no respect for human life. I was scared by and more intensely involved with the story because of the heightened violence swirling around in Temple.

Ditto Raiders. It had more than it's fair share of violence. Indy was shot, beaten and dragged. He was tore up by the end of the movie and we were more invested in him as a character because of it. We saw his suffering and sparked to his tenacity and heroism. The threat of violence is also tremedous in Raiders. The scene in The Raven where Toht holds the red-hot poker to Marion's eye is still thrilling and squirm inducing.

Violence is a key element of Indy's character and the series as a whole. Violence reveals character and provides more compelling action. In Crusade, I did not feel that heightened sense of danger because, in part, the violence was toned down (granted the tank scene was violent, but in a comedic way. Indy shot through three guys with one bullet). I feel the violence of the previous films had been toned down because of the backlash from Temple. Parents felt it wasn't appropriate for the kiddies. I believe this compromised the purity of the series somewhat. It robbed it of teeth to a certain degree.

I love Last Crusade, but I just didn't feel like I had been through the ringer by the movie's end like I had felt with Raiders and Temple. I want to be wrung out at the end of an Indy adventure. I want the tension to be unbearable at times. I believe the way this is done is by preseneting characters that we invest in emotionally and then precede to put them in the most genuinely dangerous and threatening situations imaginable. And don't just threaten; make good on those threats. Characters that we care about should be maimed and/or killed. Indy's journey should be as tough for us as it is for him.

Should the violence in Indy 4 be amped up or toned down. You know how I feel, what do you think?

Yes, I agree with your analysis and it is time to amp up the violence and the feeling of peril in Indy 4. We need to feel that Indy is still the bad ass hero we remember who takes ultimate risks to get the job done. For example, another character we cared about was Wu Han. He was there in support of Indy. His life was taken and that made Indy pretty mad, setting off a whole chain of violent events:gun:
 
Well, in terms of violence, it sounds like swords are definitely in as you can read in this entry from the official Starwars.com blog: http://starwarsblog.wordpress.com/2007/06/08/fan-film-winner-profile-essence-of-the-force/#more-81 It mentions that a certain Thomas Dupont who worked on the Pirates films and a Star Wars fan film is doing similar work for Indy.

"One day my wife asked me to do something and I told her that I’d try. She said, “There is no try, there is only do” — butchering the quote from Yoda. As I started to explain what Yoda actually said, it hit me that that phrase would be a great punch line for a Mountain Dew commercial. I pitched the idea to some friends, and we decided to do it. I had met Thomas Dupont, a brilliant swordsman who worked at the King Arthur’s Tournament show at Excalibur in Las Vegas at the time (he has since become the sword master on Pirates of the Caribbean, and your very own Indiana Jones 4), and had been wanting to work with him. He loved the idea, and after that everything just fell together. The Las Vegas filmmaking community came together to support the project, and after a month or two of pre production, three nights of shooting, and about six months of post (between regular jobs), we had a product that was a nice demo for myself, Thomas, and the whole Vegas filmmaking community."
 

Indy1986

New member
I think what is more imprtant than violence is an atmosphere of
darkness and mystery. That's why I agreee with temple of doom
 

Vendetta08

New member
Primo said:
By the way, how ridiculous is a PG-13 Die Hard film? Talk about neutering a great film series. What's the point? Can John McClane even say his trademark line, "Yippee kiyah, mother f***r!"? It's not Die Hard without a trash mouthed John McClane brutally killing terrorists. How severely will the film's content suffer language and violence-wise? I shudder to think.

Don't mean to bring this up, but it's confirmed to be rated R.
 
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