Bad Guys

I'm sure this has been discussed here before but what the hell! The discussion on the Indy 4 opening scene thread was turning on to the subject of the bad guys in 4 so I thought it was more proper to start this thread...

Anyway, Temple of John pointed out that the Russians (who I think are likely to crop up in Indy 4 maybe as the bad guys maybe not...) don't invoke the same feelings as the Nazis do. The Nazis were great bad guys... you can do anything to a Nazi and we'll whoop it up 'cause... well Hell he's a NAZI for God's sake!!!

I firmly belive that Indy 4 will be set in the 1950's. Therefore Nazis as we know them would be an impracticle bad guy. However, what I would love to see is some Nazi remenants... a group of SS occultists that fled Germany at the end of World War II with the plan to create the 4th Reich. These guys could have formed a Dark Brotherhood that is well funded (stolen Nazi gold...) and has its own army. They need to find this artefact or sacred place to enable them to re-emerge... Indy gets caught up in it and hey presto we've got Indy 4... WITH NAZIS!!!

I imagine if a scenario like this was played out we'd be dealing with a darker film than Raiders and Crusade... if they were real occult types at least... Nazis running around in dark hooded robes.... evil rituals taking place in ancient gothic chambers.... you get the picture!

As I said I'd love to see this, BUT I doubt Nazis will be involved in any big way as I'm sure people would criticise SS and GL for playing it safe and not doing enough different... but its just an idea...

Simon

Like the Illinois Nazis that were seen in "Blues Brothers"? Nah, I don't like the idea of a handful of Nazis still running around looking for treasures. After all, the only reason they were interested in these religious artifacts in the first place was the obsession of Der Führer, Hitler. The Nazis had no independent thinkers who would have continued the quest, so that would really punch a hole in this bubble.

I would also hate to see a cold-war-era Russia on the bad side. Let's face it, there was too much political involvement in the cold war and not enough action. Indy is about action, not politics.

I think another "Temple of Doom" style faction would be ideal. Some religious occult group, cannibalistic tribe, etc. would be my choice. But it's not up to me, unfortunately. =)

[Edited by HovitosKing on 10-20-2003 at 01:52 pm]

I'm with HovitosKing. We need crazy cults/tribes/etc! Indy is an archeaologist, it makes more sense for him to get tangled up with long forgotten societies and such than it does for him to constantly have political adversaries (yeah, I know archeaologists don't normally get entangled with cannibals and bloodthirsty cults either, but for the sake of an action movie, I just like it better, particularly since we had the Nazis twice already, and the Russians would just make lame villains... after all, nobody really hates or fears Russians anymore, and while I know the movie won't take place during modern times, it still needs to call upon our current feelings. That's why we enjoyed watching Nazis get beat-up... we still hate them.)

Renderking Fisk said:

I was thinking maybe Tom Selleck would play an evil version of Dr. Jones... But that's just my wishful thinking.

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A rival archaeologist would work well, but I wouldn't suggest using Tom Selleck. He's too recognizable and I wouldn't be able to see him as anyone other than "Tom Selleck" (that's the problem I have with most Harrison Ford movies too... no matter what role he's playing, he's always just "Harrison Ford," except for in Star Wars and Indiana Jones, but that's because I saw those when I was much younger and also because Harrison Ford wasn't nearly as well known back then.)

Still, a rival archaeologist (played by a lesser known actor) could be interesting... two Indy-like characters competing while also contending with a bloodthirsty cult... yep, that sounds good to me.

Okay so drop the Nazis from my original idea and have some badass occultists running around in hooded robes... that'll do me! I just want to see some really dark scenes of a ritualistic nature... and some chanting, I gotta have some chanting! And a high priest wouldn't go amiss! Ooo, yeah!

I really want some damn sinister bad guys for Indy IV, and I agree that the Russians would be like the Nazis-Lite, not having quite the same impact as our fave bade guys.

smokin_si1138 said:

Okay so drop the Nazis from my original idea and have some badass occultists running around in hooded robes... that'll do me! I just want to see some really dark scenes of a ritualistic nature... and some chanting, I gotta have some chanting! And a high priest wouldn't go amiss! Ooo, yeah!

I really want some damn sinister bad guys for Indy IV, and I agree that the Russians would be like the Nazis-Lite, not having quite the same impact as our fave bade guys.

Click to expand...

Not to be contrary but...

A highpriest and chanting may become a little TOO much like Temple of Doom, just as having Nazis would be too much like an attempt to redo Raiders or Crusade. Cultists, yes, as long as they're noticeably different from the Thuggee.

Randy_Flagg said:

smokin_si1138 said:

Okay so drop the Nazis from my original idea and have some badass occultists running around in hooded robes... that'll do me! I just want to see some really dark scenes of a ritualistic nature... and some chanting, I gotta have some chanting! And a high priest wouldn't go amiss! Ooo, yeah!

I really want some damn sinister bad guys for Indy IV, and I agree that the Russians would be like the Nazis-Lite, not having quite the same impact as our fave bade guys.

Click to expand...

Not to be contrary but...

A highpriest and chanting may become a little TOO much like Temple of Doom, just as having Nazis would be too much like an attempt to redo Raiders or Crusade. Cultists, yes, as long as they're noticeably different from the Thuggee.

Click to expand...

I totally agree. I don't mind cultists or even the idea of a rival archaeologist. As a matter of fact I like both ideas. So long as there is a difference from what has been done in the past films. I want a new Indy movie not an attempt to recreate any of the other three.

I favor a two-tier RotLA approach to the villains.

(1) I'd like to see a rival archeologist who is an ugly American. By that I mean someone who is not an academic, who fought in the war and has a sense of entitlement. He'd be charismatic and young. Don't laugh, but I'd like to see someone like Vin Diesel (sp?), who's idea of archeology would be -- even worse than the Germans in RotLA -- using a dozen or so big caterpillar dozers. A guy with the Army Engineer FM 5-34 in his hip pocket. He'd represent the modern post-war reality and would be a natural foil to the 'old school' IJ. Casting someone like Vin Diesel would also reduce the pressure to cast additional (mostly comic relief) supporting cast members like in LC (remember the law of sequels, you have to add more star power with each installment).

(2) I have no problem with the Communist as larger foe. I'd like to see IJ have to get something from Russia/Eastern Europe as the Iron Curtain is rising up across Europe -- something like a da Vinci Codex that could have some sort of secret hidden within it's pages.

I forgot to add: I'd have some old Russian General who was active in the Revolution head up the Soviet Group. On the surface he'd appear benevolent -- for example giving perspective to the young upstart American -- but underneath he'd be totally sinister.

After the Russian General and the Vin Diesel character get into an argument, I could see the Vin Diesel character getting up in the guys face and saying something like, "Patton was right, we should have kept on going straight to Moscow."

Joe Brody is in the house

Mr. Fisk, for someone who likely didn't get a lot of sleep last night, you are as sharp as a tack. What do you think of the concept I just pitched?

With an older IJ, I think story, dialogue and interaction with the bad guys is going to be more important. On some levels (like brashness) IJ would identify with the younger American. On another level, IJ would relate with the old general, who himself has lived through tons of adventure on the Soviet side and has a real sense of history (I have visions of this old guy sitting in his tent drinking Vodka and listening to old recordings of the Internationale). Hell, Calista could even be his wide-eyed aide-de-camp who was starved during the seige of Moscow. Do you think she could pull off a Russian accent?

[Edited by Sean Reagan on 10-22-2003 at 06:03 pm]

Sean Reagan said:

"Patton was right, we should have kept on going straight to Moscow."

Click to expand...

You expect Vin Diesel to be able to say that?
He might, just might be able to remember it and then say it right (or they just CGI the words coming from his mouth), but it wouldn't sound convincing to anyone.

Besides, in archaeology, it's the little things that land you heaps of cash (small gold rings are easier to sell of in Marrakesj than complete mummies). Years of meticulous excavation makes finding these things a lot easier. Even Vin Diesel should know that.

I think the most important thing here is not to tread on familiar ground. Think of all the places we haven't seen Indy go yet: the jungles of Africa or the Savana, the South Pacific, pick any number of places with snow, Asia has barely been seen. If you pick the right place, the badies will come out as an extension of that idea. Don't forget, Commies weren't all Russians. There were communist Chinese (and still are), Koreans, etc..

Hopefully the time distance will nullify the "formula" of Last Crusade.

But I thought Indy liked the Commies?

I'm just offering Vin Diesel up as an example -- mostly because he has that blue-collar NCO (Sergeant) look about him. You could go with a cigar chomping Matthew McConaughey (SP?) (pumped up like he was for Reign of Fire) or any number of other actors for the American. Wasn't Vin in 'Saving Private Ryan'?

The point that I was making about the dozer-using-bad-guys is that the sought-after-relic would be the ultimate objective -- in the scramble to get it damage to the site (and to lesser, collateral artifacts) would be immaterial. The bad guys (and I'm including the Russian General here) are non-academic, non-archeologist and wouldn't care. At least in RotLA there was at least a real dig going on (even if the Nazis broke a pot here or there). Dozering down a site to get to pay dirt would be in marked contrast to IJ's methods where he (generally) leaves sites intact (he's just a grave robber). I just like the imagery of the dozers as emblematic of the '50's. During the war we used 'em to build the AlCan highway and then the interstates in the '50's. Back in the '50's it was all (supposedly) progress, progress, progress. But looking back now, we know that's really not the case. It is due to this contradiction, why I like the contrast between the present day dozer-using-bad-guys desparately seeking a relic from another age like a lost and beautiful da vinci Codex.

I just don't think there are any real alternatives to Communists as foes. In the fifties it was the U.S. and the Communits expanding at fast as they could. I could see the Russian General, a true believer in Communism but disillusioned under Stalin, pointing out that at least the U.S. re-built after they defeated their enemies. There's tons of cool themes and storylines here.

[Edited by Sean Reagan on 10-22-2003 at 06:11 pm]

Indiana Jones and the Hunt for the Crimson Codex

Mr. Fisk,

As for my recent blathering, what you're seeing is the release of 10 years of pent-up IJ-related NRG. I wasn't sitting on a treatment for 'Indiana Jones and the Hunt for the Crimson Codex" (joking working title -- thought I'd stick it to HF by using words from succesful Russian sub movies) until now, but I could sit and spin IJ's 1950's scenarios for days. Like I said before there was just sooo much stuff breaking in the '50's. It makes my mouth water.

Thanks for bringing attention to my plight. I was just sending up a flare and hoping that someone would see . . . .

Are you going to do your Halloween movie review? I've been looking forward to it but haven't seen it.

. . . O.K. I'm out of control. I took a minute and came up with a treatment.

After the war, while interrogating captured Nazi's at Spandau, the US and Russians learn of the lost Codex from a captured German. The Russians dispatch the old Soviet General to get it. As a good godless commie -- he takes the mission as an insult. The American's commit the war hero Vin Diesel character to the hunt. Over the course of the next several years, it is learned by both sides working independantly that the location of the Codex may be hidden in a Fabrege egg that has a map of the globe inside it -- and as it turns out the Russians are on the verge of recovering the egg from some local Cossack type character who has had the egg from when it was taken from the Tsar's family. The movies opens with the Vin Diesel character (with a couple of goons), The Russian General (with troops) and Indy (more on that later) closing in on the Ural mountain lair of the Cossack. After much typical opening sequence chaos, IJ escapes with the egg.
Turns out Henry Sr., who is teaching in retirement in Edinbourgh (Sp?) learned of the US's retrieval mission from an old colleague in British Intel who was present way back when in Spandau. Henry Sr. -- recognizing the importance of the Codex and not trusting the Americans -- dispatches IJ. IJ gets the egg and returns to Scotland -- this would be the second part. After surviving attempts by the bad guys to get the egg, IJ determines that the Codex is somewhere in Africa (south Africa, Libya or Kenya -- take your pick). IJ picks up Sallah and is off to the races . . . . but is shocked when he gets there and finds that the U.S. and the Russians are already there and have made an unholy alliance to get the Codex (this is flawed but I'm working fast here).
I don't know what the secret would be locked in the Codex. I also don't know what supernatural element there would be. Anyone have any ideas? For those not familiar with da Vinci's work, here's a link with more info on the Leicaster Codex.

http://www.amnh.org/exhibitions/codex/

[P.S. I hate time-travel, fountain of youth, and fuel cell type devices].

[Edited by Sean Reagan on 10-23-2003 at 01:42 pm]

I like Seans idea of the "Dozering" counterpoint to Indy. it reminds of one of the "pioneers" of archaeology a guy called Giovanni Belzoni an ex-circus strongman who began taking an interest in antiquities at the turn of the 19th century (that's the early 1800's folks).

He worked in Egypt exploring tombs in the most scientific ways... by scientific I mean he used to whack a few kegs of gunpowder up against the entrance of a tomb and KABOOM....

In one of his "excavations" he describes crawling into a room full of mummies which he promptly crawled over. Being a large fellow the mummies failed to support his weight and began to disintergrate filling Belzonis nose and throat with 2000 year old flesh... mmmmm, lovely!

And so ends our archaeological lecture for the day....

Prof. Simon....

a Bond-type villain

I think a villain like Dr. No or Goldfinger from the Bond series would be a great foe for Indy.

Just to stick my nose in, these ideas are tremendous. Vin Diesel as a doze, The Ford in trademark fedora...I vote Sir Ian McKellen as the Russian general. Uber creepy.

Raising Cain

Cain, McKellan would most certainly work as the Russian General. I love McKellan's 'Richard III' where as a 1930's English Richard III, McKellan sported a uniform similar to the Soviets. Could work.

Earlier in this thread or elsewhere in this board, I've seen suggestions (i) that Short Round come back and (ii) that Far East Asia should be a locale. So in honor of yesterday's passing of Madam Chiang, here's another (unfortunately long) storyline:

A mysterious group of Chinese ex-patriots recruit IJ to recover a relic from Mainland China. After the typical opening sequence, IJ succeeds and hands over the item to his employers. On one of his flights (either to Tyko or on to San Fran or Honolulu), IJ runs into Short Round (now, no surprise, a noted archeologist in his own right) who, upon hearing of IJ's recovery, is totally and utterly dismayed.

Short Round informs IJ that the recovered relic is one of three parts of a larger relic that contain the essence of some terrible force that was summoned or concocted back in the ancient days to repel invading hoardes (think back in the days when the Great Wall was being built). Problem was, this mystical force was so terrible it could wipe out half a continent. So the ancient Chinese did the smart thing: they broke the relic into three peices and scattered them around the globe.

There's some evidence that an ancient Chinese fleet -- ages before Columbus -- sailed down across the Indian ocean, around the Cape of Good Hope and ended up in the Caribbean. For the purposes of this story, it was this fleet that was sent out to dispatch the other two parts. The second was dropped off in South Africa. The third in Cuba or another island. Since this mystical force was so terrible, it's history was purged by the ancient Chinese but a small oral history somehow survived.

The Chinese ex-partiots' plan was to have IJ get all three parts (keeping IJ in the dark about the destructive nature of the relics) and then use the complete relic to re-take China. In the process of recovering the first part, the Communist also come to learn of the relic -- and decide to go after it because Communist China is behind the US and Russia in bomb development. This is their way to catch up. This Communist Group would be headed up by a Chinese version of the Russian General (discussed in prior posts).

Upon learning of his mistake, IJ sets off on his own (perhaps with Short Round and Sallah) to makes things right. IJ's former employers then turn to the Vin Diesel character (a soldier of fortune type also discussed above) to finish the job that IJ had started.

So what's left is a three-way Global Race for the final two parts, with one last surprise: turns out that the Fleet's prolonged exposure to the two parts ended up turning the members of the Fleet into spiteful murderous ghosts hellbent on mayhem should the parts be disturbed (yeah shades of Pirates of the Caribbean but I'm following where the Chinese Fleet supposedly went). I like this story because it is tied to the 50's cold war and has IJ having to atone for a mistake. Weak working title: 'Indiana Jones and the Hunt for the Red Dragon' (is it just me or is there an opium reference there? . . .maybe if I used 'chasing' instead of 'Hunt for').

[Edited by Sean Reagan on 10-24-2003 at 07:06 am]