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Old 01-15-2008, 02:38 PM   #51
1ord3vil
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Originally Posted by oki9Sedo
But this is Indiana Jones. If something's obvious, you can almost certain thats what it is.
Certainly. But he was obviously angry.

To digress somewhat with regards to your other thoughts: Part of why I'm arguing the way I do is that opting for the simplest and the most widely accepted interpretation sometimes just kills the imagination, even though opting for that "things are obviously what they are" will be the most overwhelmingly obvious choice in lot of given settings. I've heard the fairytales of Brothers Grimm so many times that most of them just bore me by now, even though they worked to spark off vivid dreams, fantasies and imagery for me a long time ago. So it's much funner to imagine these simple stories and characters in a more complex setting, in which, for example, Rose Red is not a sleeping princess, but rather a radical socialist extremist who blows her enemies' brains out with a sniper rifle, with the Big Bad Wolf, now a sheriff and detective, being high on her list.
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Old 01-15-2008, 02:42 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by oki9Sedo
If that were the reason, he would come across as angry - he comes across as enjoying the whole thing.
Sure. My personal perception of the scene is mostly in agreement, though there has always been a certain element of aggression and anger in there for me too.
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Not to mention that my reason is better and more fun than yours.
But how would you know? I didn't state my own interpretation of the scene until just now. In any case, I think my slight variation of his motives is better.
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Old 01-15-2008, 02:56 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by ReggieSnake
Why not go with the simple motivation that would seem readily apparent?
In a straightforward fairlytale movie like Raiders, that's what I do as well. Even as a mere kid though I thought the mechanic's motives for the fight were slightly more than just "fun". YMMV. Let the speculation continue!

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Old 01-15-2008, 05:09 PM   #54
Attila the Professor
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That's not such a ridiculously simple motive though, I would argue, 1ord3vil. I raise this point because one of the things I've always enjoyed about the character of Colonel Vogel in Last Crusade is that I think he's a well-drawn portrait of a good soldier who's taken all his promotions with pleasure and honor but who really looks forward the parts of soldiering where he gets to get his hands dirty, as in the tank sequence as elsewhere. He's much, much different than Col. Dietrich in Raiders for this reason, and makes his double-duty as the military functionary and major enemy who enjoys beating the pulp out of Indy along the lines of the German mechanic and the head Thuggee guard work extremely well.

Then consider the closest analogue to the mechanic within Raiders itself, the tough sergeant during the truck chase. He's a hardened soldier, a slightly older man, who does what he does with grim determination but no particular joy, even when punching Indy in the arm. There may be the slightest of smiles as he's speeding up to crush Indy under the truck, but only the slightest, by my lights. He has nothing to show off, he has no real streak of sadism, if he's angry about anything it's about the loss of his men, but really, he's just trying to do his job.

There's nothing like that in the mechanic. The very first expression on his face when he emerges from his hut is a smile. He walks over, he swings his arms jauntily, he laughs, he taunts...one would imagine he doesn't have that much excitement in his life. He's a mechanic, he presumably keeps in shape, and that's probably about it. I don't see him being much for dissipation of either the sexual or alcoholic variety, although this speculation is quite unsubstantiated, of course. He likes the diversion. Right before he's sliced by the blade, Indy's on the ground - the easiest thing in the world would be to kick him, but instead it's "come on, get up" or something along those lines. He's not even that brutal; it's vaguely sportsmanlike. He's in it for the fun.
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Old 01-15-2008, 05:48 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by Attila the Professor
That's not such a ridiculously simple motive though, I would argue, 1ord3vil. I raise this point because one of the things I've always enjoyed about the character of Colonel Vogel in Last Crusade is that I think he's a well-drawn portrait of a good soldier who's taken all his promotions with pleasure and honor but who really looks forward the parts of soldiering where he gets to get his hands dirty, as in the tank sequence as elsewhere. He's much, much different than Col. Dietrich in Raiders for this reason, and makes his double-duty as the military functionary and major enemy who enjoys beating the pulp out of Indy along the lines of the German mechanic and the head Thuggee guard work extremely well.

Thats a very interesting way of looking on him. I never looked on him as sadistic, just a ruthless, efficient man who gets the job done.

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Originally Posted by Attila the Professor
Then consider the closest analogue to the mechanic within Raiders itself, the tough sergeant during the truck chase. He's a hardened soldier, a slightly older man, who does what he does with grim determination but no particular joy, even when punching Indy in the arm. There may be the slightest of smiles as he's speeding up to crush Indy under the truck, but only the slightest, by my lights. He has nothing to show off, he has no real streak of sadism, if he's angry about anything it's about the loss of his men, but really, he's just trying to do his job.

I agree totally. I do think he was getting a little satisfaction out of punching Indy in the arm though.....not because he's sadistic, but because he was angry at him and because he was a serious threat who had to be quashed.

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Old 01-15-2008, 05:55 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by 1ord3vil
Certainly. But he was obviously angry.

Back that up with proof, as I've tried to do.
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Old 01-15-2008, 11:38 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by Attila the Professor
That's not such a ridiculously simple motive though, I would argue, 1ord3vil. I raise this point because one of the things I've always enjoyed about the character of Colonel Vogel in Last Crusade is that I think he's a well-drawn portrait of a good soldier who's taken all his promotions with pleasure and honor but who really looks forward the parts of soldiering where he gets to get his hands dirty, as in the tank sequence as elsewhere. He's much, much different than Col. Dietrich in Raiders for this reason, and makes his double-duty as the military functionary and major enemy who enjoys beating the pulp out of Indy along the lines of the German mechanic and the head Thuggee guard work extremely well.

Then consider the closest analogue to the mechanic within Raiders itself, the tough sergeant during the truck chase. He's a hardened soldier, a slightly older man, who does what he does with grim determination but no particular joy, even when punching Indy in the arm. There may be the slightest of smiles as he's speeding up to crush Indy under the truck, but only the slightest, by my lights. He has nothing to show off, he has no real streak of sadism, if he's angry about anything it's about the loss of his men, but really, he's just trying to do his job.

There's nothing like that in the mechanic. The very first expression on his face when he emerges from his hut is a smile. He walks over, he swings his arms jauntily, he laughs, he taunts...one would imagine he doesn't have that much excitement in his life. He's a mechanic, he presumably keeps in shape, and that's probably about it. I don't see him being much for dissipation of either the sexual or alcoholic variety, although this speculation is quite unsubstantiated, of course. He likes the diversion. Right before he's sliced by the blade, Indy's on the ground - the easiest thing in the world would be to kick him, but instead it's "come on, get up" or something along those lines. He's not even that brutal; it's vaguely sportsmanlike. He's in it for the fun.
Very well thought out and presented. I applaud you.

I've always found Vogel to be a interesting character for the same reason.
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Old 01-16-2008, 10:41 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by oki9Sedo
Back that up with proof, as I've tried to do.
Now to get things straight, you haven't provided any proof as such, but you have provided a perfectly reasonable and qualified opinion, and I can provide a similarly qualified opinion for my own point of view of course.

As the mechanic emerges from the hut, he sees Indy fighting another mechanic by the plane. The expression forming on his face as his upper teeth meet his lower lip to form a mischevious grin suggests both some anger and aggression as well as some very solid confidence. As he throws off his cap, removes his jacket and proceeds to move towads Indy, it's becoming than abundantly clear that this isn't the smile and body language of a guy who is going to shake hands and invite someone in for a drink. He sees a thug in his place, messing around with his friends and his things, it pisses him off and now he's going to walk over there and teach Indy a lesson or two about who's the real boss around here. This is pretty much what I saw when I first watched the movie back as a young kid, and that's still what I think about it.
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Originally Posted by Attila the Professor
That's not such a ridiculously simple motive though, I would argue, 1ord3vil.
I completely agree with this. But the motives I described above is not too complex for the situation, because Raiders isn't such a ridicilously simple story either.

To exaggerate, what I'm getting at is that if you on one hand compare the depth of the story, people and drama in Raiders to that of The Godfather, Raiders comes off as little more than two-dimensional pulp whereas most people will agree that The Godfather rings more true at the true depths of the human condition. On the other hand, if you compare it to a much simpler fairytale like The Three Little Pigs, the vast complexity of the incredible world portrayed in Raiders blows you away as you hold it up to the charming cartoonish fairytale. It's not at all fair to compare them directly by any means of course, but looking at them side by side, you can appreciate the vastly different orders of magnitute in terms of story depth and complexity they provide and the different levels of maturity required to fully appreciate them.

The world in Raiders is portrayed at various levels of complexity and the depth of the unfolding story amounts to more than the bare minimum you'd otherwise expect from a simple fairy tale written over just a mere few pages for example. So even though Raiders isn't terribly advanced in terms of complexity, it is still head and shoulders above the type of simpler cardboard cut-out adventure stories we've all seen portrayed on too many other occasions. So in Raiders, there is more than enough room for more-than-minimum and different interpretations, for example such as the one I have provided for the mechanic's motives above.
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Old 01-16-2008, 11:52 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by 1ord3vil
Now to get things straight, you haven't provided any proof as such, but you have provided a perfectly reasonable and qualified opinion, and I can provide a similarly qualified opinion for my own point of view of course.

As the mechanic emerges from the hut, he sees Indy fighting another mechanic by the plane. The expression forming on his face as his upper teeth meet his lower lip to form a mischevious grin suggests both some anger and aggression as well as some very solid confidence. As he throws off his cap, removes his jacket and proceeds to move towads Indy, it's becoming than abundantly clear that this isn't the smile and body language of a guy who is going to shake hands and invite someone in for a drink. He sees a thug in his place, messing around with his friends and his things, it pisses him off and now he's going to walk over there and teach Indy a lesson or two about who's the real boss around here. This is pretty much what I saw when I first watched the movie back as a young kid, and that's still what I think about it.

Well at least now that you've actually bothered your arse to back up your opinions I can actually understand them.

I still disagree though, I don't get any sense of anger from him. The part where he smiles and bits his lower lip was more suggestive of him thinking "Oh ho ho, this is gonna be fun!" to me.

I certainly didn't get the impression that he disliked Indy, just that he saw him as a good excuse to get into a fight. He's probably that sort, who if he sees a fight happening he's happy to get in there.

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Originally Posted by 1ord3vil
I completely agree with this. But the motives I described above is not too complex for the situation, because Raiders isn't such a ridicilously simple story either.

To exaggerate, what I'm getting at is that if you on one hand compare the depth of the story, people and drama in Raiders to that of The Godfather, Raiders comes off as little more than two-dimensional pulp whereas most people will agree that The Godfather rings more true at the true depths of the human condition. On the other hand, if you compare it to a much simpler fairytale like The Three Little Pigs, the vast complexity of the incredible world portrayed in Raiders blows you away as you hold it up to the charming cartoonish fairytale. It's not at all fair to compare them directly by any means of course, but looking at them side by side, you can appreciate the vastly different orders of magnitute in terms of story depth and complexity they provide and the different levels of maturity required to fully appreciate them.

The world in Raiders is portrayed at various levels of complexity and the depth of the unfolding story amounts to more than the bare minimum you'd otherwise expect from a simple fairy tale written over just a mere few pages for example. So even though Raiders isn't terribly advanced in terms of complexity, it is still head and shoulders above the type of simpler cardboard cut-out adventure stories we've all seen portrayed on too many other occasions. So in Raiders, there is more than enough room for more-than-minimum and different interpretations, for example such as the one I have provided for the mechanic's motives above.

It does have much greater levels of complexity and depth than a simple fairy-tale, but its still the kind of film where the majority of things should be "taken at face value", to quote Indy.

If a villain laughs in an evil way, its because he's evil, not because there's some underlying Freudian psychology going on there.

Last Crusade is more complicated and grown up than Raiders, and Temple of Doom is less.
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Old 01-16-2008, 12:20 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by oki9Sedo
Well at least now that you've actually bothered your arse to back up your opinions I can actually understand them.
The above is from the guy who also complained about childish language, but oh well.
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I still disagree though
I don't care.
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It does have much greater levels of complexity and depth than a simple fairy-tale, but its still the kind of film where the majority of things should be "taken at face value", to quote Indy.
That's literally what I did, given my interpretation of the scene. It just so happens that it is different from yours.
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Last Crusade is more complicated and grown up than Raiders, and Temple of Doom is less.
I can't be bothered to watch the other two films from beginning to end anymore and I think they're both inferior to Raiders in most ways. Both of them contain certain scenes I appreciate though.
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Old 01-16-2008, 12:44 PM   #61
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I might add that the scene is played to be intense and thrilling, but its played for comedy and irony as well to a fairly large extent.

The way Indy turns around to see the mechanic, you can see he's not sure this is actually happening to him. How can anybody be this unlucky? And the way he sighs with exhaustion when he accepts that it actually is happening, and lazily gets ready to fight, all of thats clearly played for humour.

And thats all made funnier by the fact that the mechanic is only there for the fun of it, rather than a sense of duty.
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Old 01-16-2008, 01:11 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by oki9Sedo
I might add that the scene is played to be intense and thrilling, but its played for comedy and irony as well to a fairly large extent.
It's certainly intense and thrilling, though I think it's mostly about suspense and action. Of course there's a sense of humor in there as well, especially with regards to the other things going on at the same time.
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And thats all made funnier by the fact that the mechanic is only there for the fun of it, rather than a sense of duty.
The scene is fun to watch, but there's not much in there that makes me laugh. I also think the mechanic's demise is the most grueling scene in the entire series. It's borderline in terms of what I'd like to see in an adventure movie like this. The impaled corpse of Satipo and the melting faces sequence are just cartoony in comparison. The gore in Temple of Doom is just corny.

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Old 01-16-2008, 01:42 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by 1ord3vil
It's certainly intense and thrilling, though I think it's mostly about suspense and action. Of course there's a sense of humor in there as well, especially with regards to the other things going on at the same time.

I think there's an irony pervading the whole scene (how unlucky can a guy BE?).

There's also some physical comedy, such as Indy very convincingly pointing at something on the ground in an alarmed fashion and then kicking him in the knackers, or falling flat on his arse after getting jabbed, or having to resort to biting his arm. Although all of that physical comedy is at the beginning of the fight, it gradually gets less funny and more intense, especially at the climax of the fight where its all about the suspense.


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I also think the mechanic's demise is the most grueling scene in the entire series. It's borderline in terms of what I'd like to see in an adventure movie like this. The impaled corpse of Satipo and the melting faces sequence are just cartoony in comparison. The gore in Temple of Doom is just corny

I loved that part when I saw it first as an 8-year old. I thought it was disgusting, but in a really cool, fun kind of way. I really enjoyed it.

You know the part in the Raven bar shootout where Indy shoots that Sherpa who's on fire? That part shocked me. Its so cold, brutal and to the point - the way he stops shouting and pauses as soon as the bullet hits him, the way the blood suddenly erupts all over his face, the way he slowly collapses onto his knees and falls to the ground, the way that whole part is completely silent except for the fire noise.

I'd never seen such coldly executed violence up to that point.
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Old 01-16-2008, 05:35 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by oki9Sedo
You know the part in the Raven bar shootout where Indy shoots that Sherpa who's on fire? That part shocked me. Its so cold, brutal and to the point - the way he stops shouting and pauses as soon as the bullet hits him, the way the blood suddenly erupts all over his face, the way he slowly collapses onto his knees and falls to the ground, the way that whole part is completely silent except for the fire noise.

I'd never seen such coldly executed violence up to that point.
Yeah, same with me. It's the first time you see the somewhat more ruthless side of Indy, later to be proven again when he throws the nazi through the windshield in the Desert Chase scene.
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Old 01-17-2008, 12:57 PM   #65
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Yeah, same with me. It's the first time you see the somewhat more ruthless side of Indy, later to be proven again when he throws the nazi through the windshield in the Desert Chase scene.

It wasn't so much that I was shocked by Indy's actions.....he's being attacked and has to defend himself. It was just that it was a moment of brief, matter-of-fact, brutal violence in a series of films otherwise played for fun.

Not that I have a problem with the scene, I think its very well done, and the violent, gritty edge of Raiders is one of the things that sets it apart from the sequels.

There are gorier deaths obviously, but they're either fantasy and so have less power to shock (Belloq's head exploding) or gory in a fun way (like the mechanic getting chopped up in the propellor....thats one of the most crowd-pleasing moments in the movie).
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Old 01-17-2008, 02:53 PM   #66
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It wasn't so much that I was shocked by Indy's actions.....he's being attacked and has to defend himself. It was just that it was a moment of brief, matter-of-fact, brutal violence in a series of films otherwise played for fun.
Yup, this is just yet another example of how different perceptions about such a simple movie can be. To me he's just a cardboard cut-out villain who's sent off without much exposure. I didn't even find this scene very memorable, and the total crash and burn is way too over the top to be disturbing.
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There are gorier deaths obviously, but they're either fantasy and so have less power to shock (Belloq's head exploding) or gory in a fun way (like the mechanic getting chopped up in the propellor....thats one of the most crowd-pleasing moments in the movie).
Not really that much of a crowd pleasing moment at all in my experience, but it can certainly get laughs from some people whereas many others will simply find it a bit disturbing. Like I said, it's borderline, though I don't want it out of the movie by any means.

However, I miss the sadistic streak for what it did to provide some extra sense of realism where the other two movies opted for the route of corny gore and childish slapstick instead.
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Old 01-17-2008, 03:16 PM   #67
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Yup, this is just yet another example of how different perceptions about such a simple movie can be. To me he's just a cardboard cut-out villain who's sent off without much exposure. I didn't even find this scene very memorable, and the total crash and burn is way too over the top to be disturbing.

Perhaps I'm overreacting, but I certainly was shocked by it when I was 8 years old. It dwells on the detail of his death, which makes it disturbing in my mind.

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Originally Posted by 1ord3vil
Not really that much of a crowd pleasing moment at all in my experience, but it can certainly get laughs from some people whereas many others will simply find it a bit disturbing. Like I said, it's borderline, though I don't want it out of the movie by any means.

I would have imagined it was a crowdpleasing moment in the cinema. Everybody groaning in anticipation as the propellor comes up behind him, covering their eyes and screaming when he gets chopped up and then cheering as the Raiders March kicks in and Indy is on his feet and to the rescue.

Its a purely fun moment for me anyway.

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Originally Posted by 1ord3vil
However, I miss the sadistic streak for what it did to provide some extra sense of realism where the other two movies opted for the route of corny gore and childish slapstick instead.

Last Crusade held back on the violence too much in my mind. I got the impression that everytime you see somebody get killed, Spielberg and Lucas were going "Okay....this isn't too much, is it? We won't offend anyone will we?" The aftermath of Temple of Doom being so controversial, I suppose.

Its interesting how Raiders feels the like a tense 1970s thriller rather than an action-adventure at times.
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Old 10-23-2016, 10:30 PM   #68
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So nearly 9 years later..... what do you guys think about this showdown?
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