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Old 04-27-2010, 08:42 PM   #1
time-raider
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Ancient Alien Theory

Im sure this has probably been brought up before, but the history channel is doing a bunch of new episodes on the topic. So I thought I might bring it up. Personally I believe there are parts of the theory that make since and others that don't.
Im personally interested in some of the historical stories, myths, legends, and folklores that many different cultures have that point towards the same origin.
thoughts anyone?
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Old 04-27-2010, 08:48 PM   #2
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It's been brought up. Too often.

Do a search and you shall see that we used to have a crackpot who called himself a protege of Von Daniken who would post here. This nut would go on some of these very shows you mentioned and spout off his wild-eyed ideas. And if you tried to reason with him he'd dismiss all evidence, instead he'd resort to begging the question or confusing the burden of proof, among other fallacious arguments.

Luckily after the fervor that was the 4th atrocity committed on the name of Indiana Jones died down a bit, so too did this guy's posts. He hasn't been around here in awhile. Frankly, I like it like that.
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Old 04-27-2010, 08:56 PM   #3
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I understand where you are coming from and totally agree that for someone to even contemplate the idea, they must be willing to give on certain facts and ideas. But might it be possible that instead of aliens, it is simpily us from the future? Or that at the least humans did what we do best, and got around? there must be something that put the same ideas inside each of our cultures heads, ie Great flood, pyramids, etc. etc.
I could be wrong, but it is an interesting thought.
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Old 04-28-2010, 08:02 AM   #4
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I have been watching this and to be honest I see both sides and there are some strange questions that make you believe. Sometimes the "alien" guys take a big leap to say "it's alien" but then again the hardcore non alien believers kind of sit back and refuse to even think of it or come up with a reason why it's not aliens. Some of the tool cutting was amazing. A prefect drilled hole in a rock! Very good series so far. Does get the mind going. Saw a new Steven Hawking shows on Discovery Channel and he said that time, close to the pyramids moves slower due to their mass. That whole time thing sure is crazy. Maybe they Egyptian's wanted to time travel. The time difference is only like 1 billionth of a second.
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Old 04-28-2010, 08:04 AM   #5
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Is it funny of it's aliens they only helped with little stuff? I mean why not give them pens and paper to write, give them power so they can light up the homes. Why just show them how to move rocks. Give them soap, toothpaste, or drugs to fight sickness.
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Old 04-28-2010, 10:23 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FedoraHead
Some of the tool cutting was amazing. A prefect drilled hole in a rock!


So what?

Occam's razor dictates that we look toward the most simple explanation.

Two explanations have been presented.

A. Aliens are responsible for creating early works of engineering here on Earth.

B. Primitive man is more advanced than preconceptions have historically allowed.



You tell me which requires fewer assumptions and logical leaps.
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Old 04-28-2010, 10:53 AM   #7
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Science gives you at least two big tools to try and make sense of the world around you:

* The Scientific Method - make a falsifiable claim and test it
* Occam's Razor (thanks, ResidentAlien)

Someone famous said something once about fact vs. truth. Facts are data gathering. "There is a big stone here" or "it takes 3.5 seconds to hit the ground when dropped from a tower". Step one is to gather data, free of bias.

Science has nothing to say about "truth". (Except philosophy and computer science, where "truth" have special meanings...) What science gives you is the framework (above) for learning about the universe by making predictions. It's like going down a checklist before launching a rocket - sure, you can get by without it, but it is really really useful and avoids making silly and/or fatal mistakes.

Step two is to make a falsifiable claim. "The rock fell off the cliff-face above" is falsifiable. Is it the same kind of rock? Does the cliff show signs of erosion? Does the area under the rock exhibit signs of impact? Are there fragments of the rock nearby? Can you wait and observe other rocks falling off? Contradictory evidence to any of those would be enough to discredit the theory.

None of those prove that the rock wasn't placed there by a passing spaceship And science can't prove that spaceships aren't sneaking around, arranging rocks.

But determining that the falsifiable claim is holding up to tests lets you make predictions. "If I stand here, I might get hit by a falling rock." is a prediction. So is "If I stand here, I might get to see a spaceship." Again, neither are contradicted by the evidence, but there is certainly more support for one of them than the other, based on the alignment of the tests of the claim with the evidence.

One is also more likely to ensure that you make decisions that will improve the quality of your life. That is, avoid getting killed by falling rocks. You are, of course, more than welcome to ignore the output of following the scientific method; it's just a tool for learning. But it does appear to be pretty successful in making good predictions about the way the world works.

It is often the case that, in casual discussions, people familiar with all of the above will jump to the end-game and simply shoot a silly idea down. There are more bad ideas than good ideas, so any notion of "fairness" is poppycock, and rational people can't afford to consider every idea equally.

Occam's Razor can be used as a shorthand to weed out ideas and get on with our lives. But that's not to say that simpler is always correct. A Newtonian clockwork universe where everything is perfectly predictable is simpler than a messy universe where time and space are relative and particles exhibit quantum randomness... but the former turns out to fail falsifiable tests when looked at more closely.

Also, there are huge categories of bad ideas that get bucketed together because they have been examined in the past and either falsified or were not falsifiable in the first place and hence can't be tested. Perpetual motion machines are one class; without even seeing a design, I can point to the Second Law of Thermodynamics and state that within a closed system, the preponderance of evidence is such that it won't work. If it did work, it would overturn much of what we think we know about the universe. That would be wonderful, and make scientists extremely happy!

What, you say? Overturning conventional wisdom makes scientists happy? You bet! The purpose of tools like the Large Hadron Collider is to find evidence that doesn't match the current theories, precisely so we can learn more! Scientists must be skeptical (again, too many bogus claims to analyze them all), but the method itself welcomes - nay, demands challenge.
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Old 04-28-2010, 11:43 AM   #8
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I understand about what you're saying about there being to many bogus theories out there to test them all, but there are some out there that have nothing to do with aliens, or anything else along those lines that scientist simply wont touch due to the fact that modern science can't explain it.

But then on the other hand some of the ideas that these theorist come up with are simply out of this world, pardon the pun.

you are right in saying that waiting for a ufo is less likely to happen than being hit by a rock, but then quantum physics states that at any point in the future a worm hole could open up in front of you and swallow you whole...

I go on in circles and Im sorry. this debate could go on and on. I just thought that its an interesting concept that shouldn't be shot down simply because of the word alien or ufo.
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Old 04-28-2010, 12:20 PM   #9
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It seems the alien people take a big leap, but at least they ask questions and not as closed minded about things. Sometimes I get upset how closed by scientist can be or archaeologist even can be.
Like the Kensington Runestone. A stone found my a farmer in the late 1800s. The writings on the stone made it seem The Vikings come to America around the 1300s I think. Sorry talking off top of my head. The thing that gets me is archaeologist all say its fake! Made my the farmer that found it or someone. However studies on it have tested that the writing on it is many years older than the 1800s and I believe it was carbon tested and dated back thousands of years. Even this new testing on it, archaeologist say "it's fake" Reason why it's fake? "Viking never came to America". It's one thing to ask for proof but to close your eyes to testing that any other time your behind is dumb.
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Old 04-28-2010, 12:59 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FedoraHead
It seems the alien people take a big leap, but at least they ask questions and not as closed minded about things. Sometimes I get upset how closed by scientist can be or archaeologist even can be.
Like the Kensington Runestone. A stone found my a farmer in the late 1800s. The writings on the stone made it seem The Vikings come to America around the 1300s I think. Sorry talking off top of my head. The thing that gets me is archaeologist all say its fake! Made my the farmer that found it or someone. However studies on it have tested that the writing on it is many years older than the 1800s and I believe it was carbon tested and dated back thousands of years. Even this new testing on it, archaeologist say "it's fake" Reason why it's fake? "Viking never came to America". It's one thing to ask for proof but to close your eyes to testing that any other time your behind is dumb.


By its very nature, science cannot be "close-minded."

It just requires testable ideas rather than wild-eyed speculation. That's exactly why religious debate is such a quandary-- it's an argument constructed on begging the question-- it asserts its own veracity by claiming the veracity of the source of the claim. It's a circular argument and utterly untestable. There is no real "theory" behind this argument or behind religious debate. Scientists are not "close-minded," they just require something to be tested.
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Old 04-28-2010, 01:16 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ResidentAlien
By its very nature, science cannot be "close-minded."

It just requires testable ideas rather than wild-eyed speculation. That's exactly why religious debate is such a quandary-- it's an argument constructed on begging the question-- it asserts its own veracity by claiming the veracity of the source of the claim. It's a circular argument and utterly untestable. There is no real "theory" behind this argument or behind religious debate. Scientists are not "close-minded," they just require something to be tested.

yes and but like I said about the "stone" it was "tested" but "top men" people that didn't even have steak in it and I believe someone that really had no idea what it was. However from interview of people they said the test is real but it has to be a fake. Isn't it closed mined if you take the finding of a test, takes fakes and say "no its fake cause we dont have any other records on it". I believe they work on facts, something that can be tested over or over. However when they ignore that 'test', then they are closed minded.
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Old 04-28-2010, 01:32 PM   #12
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Stephen Hakwing is advising us to stay away from and not try talking to aliens.

Right you are Stevie....I'll make sure I do that.



http://entertainment.gather.com/view...81474978201362
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Old 04-28-2010, 01:38 PM   #13
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Asking questions is a trait to be admired. I'd rather ask questions than accept something blindly, such as accepting something on faith.

Erik von Daeniken had an agenda: to sell books and make a name for himself. He took evidence and described it in his own terms. He has also been accused of creating evidence to help his argument, and apparently admitted doing it.

The idea that aliens rather than God are the deities of man is an appealing idea to me. Daeniken makes for great ideas for fiction.

However, I don't believe in ancient aliens or in Gods. Not without insurmountable proof. Belief that only aliens could cut stone so precisley takes away the skills that ancient man possessed, and has been proved by modern masons to be possible.

Putting faith in ancient aliens degrades the incredible achievements of man.

Last edited by Montana Smith : 04-28-2010 at 02:05 PM.
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Old 04-28-2010, 02:08 PM   #14
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Putting faith in ancient aliens degrades the incredible achievements of man.

Beautifully put!
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Old 04-28-2010, 02:52 PM   #15
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You know I am not the best one to view a show like this. I can't see how they made the pyramids, those cut stones, etc but then again I can't see how someone makes a toaster, a flashlight, etc. If you give me the tools to cut a rock I can't do it, you give me the tools to make a working flashlight, I couldnt do it. It's all amazing to me. You must admit, Man sure has come a long way. What will this place look like a million years from now.

I just don't get people that say "if aliens could be here they would land at the white house". That's just dumb to me. I mean let's say that your alien and you have seen and watched thousands of planets, thousand types of life. Maybe you have known of life for millions of years. So finding Earth is old news to you. You don't care about meeting us, talking to us, landing on our white. You may find it more fun to 'watch us'. I guess the thing is, no one can say why or why not a alien would do something. We just don't know. Or let's say your an alien race that has no word, history, or knowledge of violence, of wars. You watch us and see us fighting, see us killing. You know we can kill you, you (the alien) have no weapons cause it was never needed. So why would you land and risk being killed? Maybe better to watch from the sky, maybe taken one of us for study.
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Old 04-28-2010, 02:58 PM   #16
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It's funny how someone can laugh at you for saying aliens helped mankind, yet they believe a man in the clouds is watching and judging everything you do.

Both take a leap of faith not proof.
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Old 04-28-2010, 03:10 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FedoraHead
You know I am not the best one to view a show like this. I can't see how they made the pyramids, those cut stones, etc but then again I can't see how someone makes a toaster, a flashlight, etc. If you give me the tools to cut a rock I can't do it, you give me the tools to make a working flashlight, I couldnt do it. It's all amazing to me.

Me too! I still see the machine that plays a vinyl record as a work of magic. I mean, how can a simple disc with a single groove produce such a variety of sound?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lance Quazar
Beautifully put!

Thanks, Lance.

Faith is a dangerous commodity...

Quote:
Originally Posted by FedoraHead
It's funny how someone can laugh at you for saying aliens helped mankind, yet they believe a man in the clouds is watching and judging everything you do.

Both take a leap of faith not proof.

A leap of faith is a leap too far for me.
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Old 04-28-2010, 03:59 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FedoraHead
I just don't get people that say "if aliens could be here they would land at the white house". That's just dumb to me. I mean let's say that your alien and you have seen and watched thousands of planets, thousand types of life. Maybe you have known of life for millions of years. So finding Earth is old news to you. You don't care about meeting us, talking to us, landing on our white. You may find it more fun to 'watch us'. I guess the thing is, no one can say why or why not a alien would do something. We just don't know.


Hence the definition to the word ALIEN! beautifully put.
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Old 04-28-2010, 04:10 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FedoraHead
let's say your an alien race that has no word, history, or knowledge of violence, of wars. You watch us and see us fighting, see us killing. You know we can kill you, you (the alien) have no weapons cause it was never needed. So why would you land and risk being killed? Maybe better to watch from the sky, maybe taken one of us for study.

Ok hypothetically....

I would consider any beings capable of the technology that could propel them to alien worlds such as ours would also posess knowledge far superior to ours.

This knowledge would provide them with the logic, whatever their belief system, that they would need to defend themselves should they step into the unknown.

Also, being more advanced means they are likely to be an older species, i.e. in existence before humans, therefore they have survived. Survival of any species is based not soley on procreation, but on the predation of other species, flora or fauna and avoiding predation. At the very least staying ahead of the competition.

By this I would assume that such advanced species would have at some point in it's evolution, been prey or predator, hunted or been hunted, even battled for resources with it's own kind or peers. This instinct may very well still be present and our only hope would be that advanced intelligence will promote peaceful intentions.

Ultimately Stephen hawkings may be right....if they want to plunder our planet, they will, with ease. They could find most of what they need on other planets and leave us alone..They may regard us as a species to be protected or studied, or merely an annoyance to be eliminated. We could even be the resource for viable cross breeding or even just labour, or as food!
Truth is we just don't know.

I do firmly beleive that mankind has achieved all the amazing things people find impossibe and credit aliens for. We have lost many skills through the ages so it's easy for me to see how the pyramids were built by man, yet we have simply lost the know how today.

We seem to assume that mankind today is much smarter than earlier civilisations. Whilst that may be true to an extent as a whole, these civilisations are the very foundation of ours.

Necessity being the mother of invention has made us progress in leaps and bounds. War being responsible for some of our biggest advances. The more we advance the quicker we continue to advance.

But we don't need to build pyramids from huge stones today so, we simply forgot and lost that skill.

How many expert watchmakers are there today (allowing for current population increae)? Ever heard the phrase they don't make em like they used to?

Fire is one of the first things that advanced primitive man, yet most people today in reality could not start a fire without modern tools.

I am prety sure aliens didn't come to Earth, give primitive man some flint and teach him how to make fire and tools....they could have at least brought a Zippo and a Swiss Army Knife.

Last edited by Dr Bones : 04-28-2010 at 04:28 PM.
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Old 04-29-2010, 12:07 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Dr Bones
Ok hypothetically....

I would consider any beings capable of the technology that could propel them to alien worlds such as ours would also posess knowledge far superior to ours.

This knowledge would provide them with the logic, whatever their belief system, that they would need to defend themselves should they step into the unknown.

Also, being more advanced means they are likely to be an older species, i.e. in existence before humans, therefore they have survived. Survival of any species is based not soley on procreation, but on the predation of other species, flora or fauna and avoiding predation. At the very least staying ahead of the competition.

Yes. We can look at ourselves, for example Humans are at the top of the food chain and we didn't get there by being nice to every other species.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Bones
I do firmly beleive that mankind has achieved all the amazing things people find impossibe and credit aliens for. We have lost many skills through the ages so it's easy for me to see how the pyramids were built by man, yet we have simply lost the know how today.

We seem to assume that mankind today is much smarter than earlier civilisations. Whilst that may be true to an extent as a whole, these civilisations are the very foundation of ours.

Necessity being the mother of invention has made us progress in leaps and bounds. War being responsible for some of our biggest advances. The more we advance the quicker we continue to advance.

Yes again. The brain power of modern humans ought to be identical to the brain power of ancient homo sapiens. With the passing years, and with invention begetting invention, we have the opportunity to learn a far greater variety of skills. It's still the same brain doing the thinking.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Bones
But we don't need to build pyramids from huge stones today so, we simply forgot and lost that skill.

How many expert watchmakers are there today (allowing for current population increae)? Ever heard the phrase they don't make em like they used to?

The paradox of modern civilization is the idea of planned obsolescence: that objects are identionally made to poorer standards, to ensure that they fail within a given time limit, and that a new one will need to be bought. A somewhat backward cultural step, founded in ideology.

If we were to put aliens into our history it would imply that the human brain was incapable of adapting to change without external assistance. If that were true, then our days are numbered (like those of the dinosaurs), unless the aliens return. A bit like Arthur C. Clarke's 2001, with the black monoliths that appear throughout our history, each time leading us to the next stage of civilization.
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Old 04-29-2010, 06:47 AM   #21
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When it comes to them building things, I don't think they were as lazy as most are today. I mean they had days, years to do it. Nothing else to do. No TV, no net, no Indiana Jones movies, so to them working 7 days a week and all day wasn't the different or hard I bet.
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Old 04-30-2010, 12:37 AM   #22
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This is my kind of topic..

Anyone else here read the book "Dead Man's Secrets" by Jonothan Gray?

It's a fabulous book, with amazing information about a super human race that preceded ours, that had the same and more technology than what we have simply re-discovered in our times.
I believe we didn't decsend from stone age man..
We decsended from a greater race.
The Stone age has been mistakenly termed, but what it really was, was a Stone Culture, rather.
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Old 04-30-2010, 05:18 AM   #23
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while this idea is an interesting one(Ive thought about it once or twice), it would have required either:
1. the human race to deevolve, both physically and mentally. Or,

2. evolve along side of a cousin race of homo-sapien. (this one isn't so far-fetched. Seeing as we're doing that right now with monkeys and apes). Or,

3. that both races never had any physical contact at all and then all of the re-knowledge, if you will, would have been genetic memory or based on our own ingenuity.

Im sure there are other permutations that could come out of this train of thought but the main thing is you will never know. And anyone who says they do better have an "ark" full of evidence just to prove it, because other wise no one will believe, or at least the people they want to believe them wont. But its still a lovely idea that ive toyed with my self and its a perfect backdrop for scifi books and movies.
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Old 05-01-2010, 05:50 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarika
This is my kind of topic..

Anyone else here read the book "Dead Man's Secrets" by Jonothan Gray?

It's a fabulous book, with amazing information about a super human race that preceded ours, that had the same and more technology than what we have simply re-discovered in our times.
I believe we didn't decsend from stone age man..
We decsended from a greater race.
The Stone age has been mistakenly termed, but what it really was, was a Stone Culture, rather.
I subscribe to this, rather than to the alien theory. While I don't rule out the idea that our ancestors were contacted by something, I think the simpler explanation is that they were a lot more intelligent than we give them credit for. And if you need proof, just look at the famous ancient monuments. There are things nearly impossible for us to do today that they did thousands of years ago, and we're supposed to believe they did it all by banging rocks on things? That's taking evidence and twisting it to your own preconceived notions. There was a series on History that was about the ancient alien theory, and one whole episode was devoted to "The Evidence". If you can find it on TV or Youtube, watch it.
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Old 07-18-2010, 01:48 PM   #25
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Ancient aliens

Restarting a thread that went in unusual directions (http://raven.theraider.net/showthrea...=14138&page=12)

Basically, I'm supporting the "ancient alien" theory. I've spent over twenty years researching it, and I've seen some pretty hardcore stuff myself. I used to be a Christian, long ago, but the facts about the alien presence on earth shattered that world view and forced a different one upon me. I think that's one of the main reasons UFO information is suppressed -- fear of the status quo being disrupted doesn't begin to describe it. It's scary, and unwelcome, given our culture context. There's no real precedent for it so it's difficult to accept.

That said, I hope we can keep to facts (not what the mainstream accepts, as that's a rigged game, but rather, "facts" being what others can check out for themselves and so form their own opinion).

I'd like to start the ball rolling with the work of Graham Hancock and his colleagues. In particular, the true age of the Giza site. Weather-based erosion of the rocks geologically redate the Sphinx and great pyramids to 12,000 BC. This doesn't necessarily mean aliens built them, though it does prove that conventional Egyptology is wholly wrong about their premiere monuments. It shows that the true story is unknown, which leaves the door open for alien intervention in the past.

Thoughts?
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