Does anyone pretend KOTCS didn't happen?

Personally, I think the series ended with LC. Riding into the sunset is a better ending, in my opinion.

However, I certainly recognize KotCS' existence, I even fairly well enjoyed the movie. I view KotCS almost the same as the video games or novels. It's not part of the MAIN series, but still offers another glance at Indy's life.

It's a nice, personal psychological compromise.

ResidentAlien said:

Such an idiotic argument and I'm baffled each and every time I hear it. All the apologists have become a real broken record with that nonsense.

It's like saying, "I haven't eaten a pizza in a long while, but I'll be content with Pizza Hut because it has dough, cheese and sauce-- It at least has the ingredients and since I like pizza, I'll like this."

Ingredients do not make the pizza, clearly. It's the skill by which the ingredients are combined. It's why Pizza Hut will only ever make pizza by name, it's why KOCKS will only ever be Indiana Jones by name.

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But that applies to all the Indy movies to some extent... We could sit here all day long bemoaning the elements of TOD, TLC and KOTCS that are flawed and/or didn’t work (and of course there are several threads where we do just that). In reality, it can be argued that TOD, TLC and KOTCS are just sub par inferior sequels to Raiders of the Lost Ark, which in itself isn’t exactly the pinnacle of 20th century cinema… but I wouldn’t want to automatically resign the Indy movies to the bin because of what they are not.

Of course the Indy moniker can’t simply be used as an excuse for something devoid of any merit (I’m sure we’d all agree), but I’m on the side of the fence that believes there is something worthy of praise within all the movies (to varying degrees)... because if KOTCS is that bad that it's irredeemable, then I'm not sure where that leaves the other Indy movies (or contemporary 'Hollywood' movies). And to borrow your fitting analogy, Raiders may very well be the best sort of pizza, but it remains just a pizza nonetheless (like the other Indy movies) i.e. to be consumed quickly, cheaply and with a couple of beers. If one wants something more substantial/more refined than a pizza, perhaps Pizza Hut is not the best place to eat

Raiders112390 said:

To me, the movie happened in another dimension in the Indy-verse.

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Really? That's odd because in the Timeline/Chronology thread, you recently wrote this:

Raiders112390 said:

Personally for me my personal time line includes (in order of importance)

The movies and YIJC (1908-1957)

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Nope I still watch it in canon with the other three.

Dr Bones said:

The series hasn't ended...KOTCS was just an average day out for Indy. Better times ahead we hope.

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That is how I feel too.

Stoo said:

Really? That's odd because in the Timeline/Chronology thread, you recently wrote this:

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Like I said, I view it as sort of in another dimension--more along the lines of, if I really want to know what happened after LC, because the ending to LC is perfect. It doesn't mean in terms of the chronology of Indiana Jones that I don't feel it didn't happen--it did, of course. However, I like to think of it like an epilogue, which can usually be a sad or happy post-ending to a novel. I think Lucas said once something to the effect that the YIJC were like a different perspective on Indy--in that they were Indy, but not exactly--I think the same of KOTCS. It's a different perspective, perhaps even a ''what if'' sort of epilogue--Which I think KOTCS originally intended to be, as Indy ever since rode off into the sunset in LC, people always wondered, ''what if?" or "where did he go after that?" this sort of answers it, and you can choose whether or not to accept the answer. I do, but only parts of it.

tambourineman said:

Its just a movie. Damn some people are drama queens.

Even though I think they made some big mistakes, I dont know how any Indy fan couldnt find something to enjoy about the movie and not get a kick out of seeing Indy again after so many years. I was excited enough just to see him do the bookends for that Young Indy episode.

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It really is embarrassing how some people have reacted.

It is, afterall, just a movie.

ResidentAlien said:

Such an idiotic argument and I'm baffled each and every time I hear it. All the apologists have become a real broken record with that nonsense.

It's like saying, "I haven't eaten a pizza in a long while, but I'll be content with Pizza Hut because it has dough, cheese and sauce-- It at least has the ingredients and since I like pizza, I'll like this."

Ingredients do not make the pizza, clearly. It's the skill by which the ingredients are combined. It's why Pizza Hut will only ever make pizza by name, it's why KOCKS will only ever be Indiana Jones by name.

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That's not really comparable at all........trying to make another great Indy film nearly 20 years later isn't as easy as going out picking your favorite pizza. It's a little more complicated that.

I don't understand why you feel the need to carry such a harsh tone.

We're merely people who enjoy the film, and you call us "apologists?" Let go of the bitterness, dude. Certainly there are more important things to get riled up about.

Trying to match the magic of 'Raiders of the Lost Ark,' and trying to compete with those nostalgic memories is a near-impossible feat. I love it because I love the character of Indiana Jones, and to me, it's just another great adventure.

Cole said:

That's not really comparable at all........trying to make another great Indy film nearly 20 years later isn't as easy as going out picking your favorite pizza. It's a little more complicated that.

I don't understand why you feel the need to carry such a harsh tone.

We're merely people who enjoy the film, and you call us "apologists?" Let go of the bitterness, dude. Certainly there are more important things to get riled up about.

Trying to match the magic of 'Raiders of the Lost Ark,' and trying to compete with those nostalgic memories is a near-impossible feat. I love it because I love the character of Indiana Jones, and to me, it's just another great adventure.

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Someone dislikes the film and you guys call 'em "drama queens?"

Let out the bitter tone, dude.

The thread was bitter, I responded in kind.


And it's not about trying to match any damn thing. It's about making a good pie, not a microwaved, mass-marketed food-stuffs sorta resembling pizza.

I really wish people would end this pointless argument. If you enjoy the film, that's okay, if you despise it, that's fine as well. Personally, I love the film, but I hate how both sides keep trying to "prove" the quality of the films with pointless facts. You cannot "prove" the quality of a film or a work of art, it's a matter of opinion.

ResidentAlien said:

Someone dislikes the film and you guys call 'em "drama queens?"

Let out the bitter tone, dude.

The thread was bitter, I responded in kind.


And it's not about trying to match any damn thing. It's about making a good pie, not a microwaved, mass-marketed food-stuffs sorta resembling pizza.

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Enough with the pizza analogy.

avidfilmbuff said:

I really wish people would end this pointless argument. If you enjoy the film, that's okay, if you despise it, that's fine as well. Personally, I love the film, but I hate how both sides keep trying to "prove" the quality of the films with pointless facts. You cannot "prove" the quality of a film or a work of art, it's a matter of opinion.

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But this is all about sharing your opinion, and the discussion of art includes how you decide the success or failure of an artist. Providing reasons or "proof" as you put it is an intrinsic element in uncovering something you or someone else may have missed, not limited to style, technique, homages, character development, ect.

It's inevitable when you have something that people feel passionate about.

If you're annoyed, just turn the page...or engage.

avidfilmbuff said:

I really wish people would end this pointless argument. If you enjoy the film, that's okay, if you despise it, that's fine as well. Personally, I love the film, but I hate how both sides keep trying to "prove" the quality of the films with pointless facts. You cannot "prove" the quality of a film or a work of art, it's a matter of opinion.

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Yes, you can't make somebody like or hate something (unless they're particularly weak-minded!). A film will move you in some way, for good or for bad. A movie is rarely all good or all bad, though those rare occasions, such as ROTLA, are extra special.

KOTCS is just another chapter, and it wouldn't exist if it wasn't for ROTLA. The original will always be held up as the benchmark, as without it there wouldn't be any sequels or prequels. It would be impossible to please everybody, and KOTCS was in the difficult position of appealing to a diverse audience of original fans and viewers seeing the character for the first time.

Rocket Surgeon said:

But this is all about sharing your opinion, and the discussion of art includes how you decide the success or failure of an artist. Providing reasons or "proof" as you put it is an intrinsic element in uncovering something you or someone else may have missed, not limited to style, technique, homages, character development, ect.

It's inevitable when you have something that people feel passionate about.

If you're annoyed, just turn the page...or engage.

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Also, yes, as being critical of the good and the bad is the way we unpick a film - if we accepted everything as either completely wonderful or completely terrible, the Raven would be a pretty dull place!

Cole said:

Enough with the pizza analogy.

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Yes mommy.


Oh wait... no, **** you. I like my pizza analogy. It rather aptly exposes the flaws in the logic of those who accept something at face value. And that is why others, like myself, cannot bring ourselves to like something on a merely superficial level. I don't care how many pepperonis and anchovies you throw on a Pizza Hut pizza, it's still a mediocre pie. KOCKS had its pepperonis (bringing back Marion for instance), but it was just an over-dressed homage to Pizza.

Rocket Surgeon said:

But this is all about sharing your opinion, and the discussion of art includes how you decide the success or failure of an artist. Providing reasons or "proof" as you put it is an intrinsic element in uncovering something you or someone else may have missed, not limited to style, technique, homages, character development, ect.

It's inevitable when you have something that people feel passionate about.

If you're annoyed, just turn the page...or engage.

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I completely understand that, and of course film lovers and critics should explain their reasonings for loving or despising a film. But the thing is with this particular film, and with the Star Wars, people became so outraged by how other people felt about it, that they proceeded to post little things about the film, and then state their opinions as a "fact". To many lovers and haters, the quality of Crystal Skull is a "fact."

And this is what I mean by "proof." I don't mean they're trying to explain why they like or dislike a film. They are proving Crystal Skull's quality as a "fact." I always see on IMDB, that when a film critic like Roger Ebert dislikes a film that the majority finds to be a masterpiece, instead of providing reasonable counterarguments, they say something like "he fails as a critic," or some other nonsense like that. And that's what many people have been doing here on this board, and on IMDB.

ResidentAlien said:

Yes mommy.


Oh wait... no, **** you. I like my pizza analogy. It rather aptly exposes the flaws in the logic of those who accept something at face value. And that is why others, like myself, cannot bring ourselves to like something on a merely superficial level. I don't care how many pepperonis and anchovies you throw on a Pizza Hut pizza, it's still a mediocre pie. KOCKS had its pepperonis (bringing back Marion for instance), but it was just an over-dressed homage to Pizza.

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Food often makes for good analogies, as Rocket once said, "we all eat."

For the record I can't stand anchovies. Mutt was just one of he anchovies on my pizza.

ResidentAlien said:

Yes mommy.


Oh wait... no, **** you. I like my pizza analogy. It rather aptly exposes the flaws in the logic of those who accept something at face value. And that is why others, like myself, cannot bring ourselves to like something on a merely superficial level. I don't care how many pepperonis and anchovies you throw on a Pizza Hut pizza, it's still a mediocre pie. KOCKS had its pepperonis (bringing back Marion for instance), but it was just an over-dressed homage to Pizza.

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Ya, we get it......you don't like the movie. Trust me, you don't need some stupid analogy to drive the point home further.

Cole said:

Ya, we get it......you don't like the movie. Trust me, you don't need some stupid analogy to drive the point home further.

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Oh I get it, you like the movie and are intolerant of people who don't. You don't need some misplaced aggression to drive home the vacuousness of your existence any further.

ResidentAlien said:

Oh I get it, you like the movie and are intolerant of people who don't. You don't need some misplaced aggression to drive home the vacuousness of your existence any further.

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I never said you can't dislike the movie..........I just said your analogy is dumb.

Funny, you talking about intolerance of other people's opinions. You know, you writing this dandy a few minute ago:

"And that is why others, like myself, cannot bring ourselves to like something on a merely superficial level."

Hypocrite.

Cole said:

I never said you can't dislike the movie..........I just said your analogy is dumb.

Funny, you talking about intolerance of other people's opinions. You know, you writing this dandy a few minute ago:

"And that is why others, like myself, cannot bring ourselves to like something on a merely superficial level."

Hypocrite.

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Go look up the word "hypocrite." Or at least take a lesson in reading comprehension.


I never once said you can't like the movie. I did say that I can't like it for the superficial reasons YOUR camp offers. Such as "it's an Indiana Jones movie and any real fan should find something to enjoy." That whopper came (paraphrased) from earlier in this very conversation.


Where's the facepalm emoticon? I need it to convey the shocking ineptitude of your debating abilities.