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Old 09-07-2012, 11:00 AM   #76
Rocket Surgeon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kongisking
Well, I definitely aint promising that I'll like it forever. I'm just saying that for now, it really doesn't bother me much. And it's not that I gravitate towards that sort of camp; it's just that I don't get super-worked up over it, that's all. I tend to either ignore or forgive the flaws of films and focus on the virtues, which results in me often liking films that others despise. Whether or not that's smart, to simply dismiss a film's bad points, is up for debate. A debate I'm fully willing to explore with you, if you're up for it, Rocket.

I'm here!

I guess the place to start is your penchant for ignoring or forgiving the flaws of films and focusing on the virtues.

What flaw would Skull have had to have to make it hard to impossible for you to ignore?

A section where they all turn into South Park cut-outs?
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Old 09-07-2012, 04:47 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.Jonesy
You were more accepting of the humor as a kid than you are now. The sore thumbs stuck out to me in TOD/TLC quite a bit when I saw them because I wasn't a kid, I saw them in my late teens but the flaws and such smooth out over time as I get used to them. KOTCS hasn't had the time to have the flaws some fans see in it smooth out.
This isn't the 1st time you've said that. Why have you been lying about your age lately? These past few years were your late teens because you were 15 when "Crystal Skull" came out.
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Originally Posted by Dr.Jonesy
I don't own one piece of merchandise, and I never went to see an Indy film more than once or twice. Or any film in a franchise for that matter.
What a bunch of bull. You do own merchandise and the only Indy movie release you were alive for was "Kingdom", which you saw at least *3* times. At the AMC marathon this month, it'll be yet another viewing (4th or more) and you plan on wearing a "Kingdom" T-shirt to the event. Last week in another thread, you even wrote that you go see certain movies "usually more than once". Please, BE REAL.
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Old 09-07-2012, 04:59 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by Dr.Jonesy
Some counterparts to the scenes you mentioned.

Prairie Dogs = Animals in the Camp Scene.
Fridge = Raft Out of the Plane
The diner fight scene has a slapstick feel = Sorry, that's a bit too subjective.
Marion and Indys argument/meeting in the campsite = Henry/Indy arguing in front of the Nazis.
The whole quicksand scene = Temple Campfire Scene
Marion/Indys argument in the back of the truck = Henry/Indy arguing (actually inspired the scene).
Marion Coaching = Willie encouraging Indy to punch the Thuggee whilst punching the air.
The Whole waterfall scene = Raft off of cliff into river and the following dialogue.

I'm not saying you shouldn't find those scenes you like entertaining, but your premise was that there was more of it in KOTCS, and I listed all the cheap humor/silly scenes in the first three as a retort; and if you have to say "But I like those," then that's fine but that also means that they were still present and that you're arguing a subjective point.
Of course its all subjective and we see and appreciate different things. I donít theres any comparison between Marion coaching and Willie shadow boxing. The fencing scene is cheesy in the extreme, culminating in the monkey swinging too. You mention the raft scene twice, do you find it that bad? But in many of the scenes I mentioned in KOTCS the additional dialogue and interaction within those scenes seems so out of character, Indys reaction to Marion in the camp and there argument was so clunky. Nothing like the sparks we saw in Raiders, Marion had changed beyond any recognition and I felt she had no place in the film. The quicksand scene again was pointless and was such a clunky introduction between father and son it was embarrassing.

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Originally Posted by Dr.Jonesy
The tone of KOTCS in the entire first half of the film is in line with the more serious parts in TLC. Quite devoid of humor.
Agreed yet I felt TLC is much a more interesting film.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.Jonesy
And I think you hit the nail on the head; you were younger. When a long time awaited film goes into theaters, hardcore fans have a set of obstacles set for that film to navigate and if it does, then it's a good film. I've seen some fans write that the minute they saw a prairie dog, they checked out and decided it sucked. That's what they actually said. Fans LOOK for red flags to confirm their worst fears. I know I did You were more accepting of the humor as a kid than you are now. The sore thumbs stuck out to me in TOD/TLC quite a bit when I saw them because I wasn't a kid, I saw them in my late teens but the flaws and such smooth out over time as I get used to them. KOTCS hasn't had the time to have the flaws some fans see in it smooth out. Fans get to hung up on what it isn't and eventually that passes like it has with TOD.
I was 16 when I saw TLC in cinemas on its release. And I saw ROTLA and TOD in 84. I still believe KOTC tries (and fails) to be more humourous than the other 3. To my mind it tries to dumb the whole thing down even more than TLC I thought, complete with awkward character interactions. But ultimately I think what makes it so disappointing is that the rest of the story is poor in comparison to the other 3. If the humour as it stands was surrounded by a decent story and an interesting film, (like I feel the other 3 are), then it probably wouldnít be an issue. But theres no one factor that tipped me over to disliking it, itís the whole package that doesnít stand up as a really good film. I found it so disappointing overall. I didnít like the story, the macguffin, the lack of scope the character interaction, the humour, the messy handling of Marion and Mutt, characters that meant nothing like Ox and Mac. They should of cut the number of characters down that go on the adventure, it seems to be increasing with each film to ridiculous levels. Yes there were some pluses, like Harrison, the warehouse fight, the bike chaseÖÖÖ.. but Iím struggling after that. I so wanted to like it and have watched it many times since.
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Old 09-07-2012, 05:31 PM   #79
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Stoo, I'm so glad you're this interested in me to the point where you've memorized everything I write.

Find something more to do with your time and I'd hardly call a T-Shirt "owning merchandise".
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Old 09-07-2012, 06:38 PM   #80
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We know opinions are subjective, which is why we have to try and go beyond opining. This is where criticism comes in. Criticism doesn't try to laud itself as objectivity but it requires adept ability at analysis and argument. Criticism, as in 'critiquing', utilises an appreciation of aesthetics, intellectual understanding and wisdom. When someone wants to highlight the merits and demerits of a piece of work through an explanation that strives for logic then this is criticism.
I know previously I have said I feel hate for CS, but a better way to put it is to simply say, "I am disappointed in the perceived flaws in CS on different levels, especially in comparison to its predecessors" and then go on to enumerate those flaws and to present a case as to my views. This is not "hating" as some like to term it, but rather it is a sign of love. We love the world of Indiana Jones and wish to devote some of our energies to appreciation of the elements within.. Criticism is saying, "Something is like...." That is all we have to go on.
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Old 09-07-2012, 06:45 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.Jonesy

Stoo, I'm so glad you're this interested in me to the point where you've memorized everything I write.

Find something more to do with your time and I'd hardly call a T-Shirt "owning merchandise".
You wrote that you "don't own one piece of merchandise" and you have more than just that shirt.

Anyway, why have you been pretending to be 10 years older than you really are?
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Old 09-08-2012, 03:28 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by Stoo
This isn't the 1st time you've said that. Why have you been lying about your age lately? These past few years were your late teens because you were 15 when "Crystal Skull" came out.
What a bunch of bull. You do own merchandise and the only Indy movie release you were alive for was "Kingdom"
Maybe that explains the love for it. My son is similar. He's seen the originals on DVD, yet the only one he's seen at the cinema and was alive for was KOTCS (he's now 14). Its his 2nd favourite Indy movie behind TOD. Possibly it's an age thing then.
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Old 09-08-2012, 04:34 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by AndyLGR
Maybe that explains the love for it. My son is similar. He's seen the originals on DVD, yet the only one he's seen at the cinema and was alive for was KOTCS (he's now 14). Its his 2nd favourite Indy movie behind TOD. Possibly it's an age thing then.

This may make sense as the younger kids nowadays dig the Star Wars prequels ... never saw it that way.
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Old 09-08-2012, 10:12 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by Dr. Gonzo
This may make sense as the younger kids nowadays dig the Star Wars prequels ... never saw it that way.
Yeah my son loves the prequels too. Maybe we are miserable old gits too
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Old 09-08-2012, 07:24 PM   #85
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..and maybe Uncle George was right from the start.
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Old 09-08-2012, 08:12 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocket Surgeon
I'm here!

I guess the place to start is your penchant for ignoring or forgiving the flaws of films and focusing on the virtues.

What flaw would Skull have had to have to make it hard to impossible for you to ignore?

A section where they all turn into South Park cut-outs?

I guess my personal philosophy is that even with bad films, it is worthwhile to focus more on its virtues, if any, and commend it for those, while condemning it for its flaws. If the virtues outweigh the bad stuff, then I call it a good film. Other way around, it's awful. I like to think every film ever made is either a good movie with some bad things, or a bad movie with some good things. It's just me trying to be fair to each movie, as I recognize a lot of work goes into these things, and therefore I feel like it's slightly disrespectful to outright dismiss even bad films entirely, out of respect for the men and women who put blood, sweat and tears into making them. Especially, when the bad films DO have some good to recommend them for.

A good example of how I view bad movies is Transformers 2, which I would genuinely call one of the worst films ever made. However, I am fully willing to commend it for the little things it gets right. Such as: I like the Optimus Prime fight in the forest. Incredible visuals, there. And I still enjoyed Shia's performance, in spite of the terrible material given to him. Also I really love John Turturro in those films. I just find his character hysterically funny.

So there's an example of my thought process behind reviewing films. With KOTCS, it really came down to me choosing the good over the bad. And there's definitely the bias of a person who wants so badly to love a new Indy film in there too, so I may be delusional, too...

Now, if KOTCS had had something like Indy talking to animals or singing, it would probably be too much for me to take, I'll admit...that stuff is the realm of Disney, not Dr. Jones!
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Old 09-08-2012, 10:39 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by AndyLGR
Maybe we are miserable old gits too

Ya, but kids also like this...



...so... ya know?
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Old 09-08-2012, 10:53 PM   #88
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What's with the knobbly d1ldo on the left? And Ron Jeremy a few pages back?

Even if it had been In Diana Jones With a Crystal Vibrator Kingdom would still have been #1 on the 50 most disappointing porno films of all time.
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Old 09-08-2012, 10:56 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by Montana Smith
What's with the knobbly d1ldo on the left? And Ron Jeremy a few pages back?

Even if it had been In Diana Jones With a Crystal Vibrator Kingdom would still have been #1 on the 50 most disappointing porno films of all time.

Bwahahaha! Smiffy is cracking the code.
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Old 09-09-2012, 12:37 PM   #90
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I think "Total Film readers" misunderstood the concepts between "most disappointing" and "movies they didn't like".

But the list wasn't to create discussion, simply bolster old established hatreds. Its a very "safe" list, written for common idiots to feel smart. "My opinion is bolstered by something I found in print! Other people agree with me! I must be part of a larger, thinking group and this proves it!"

Silly, badly reasoned thinking. Indy 4 is my least favorite of the series but it's still a fun time and perfectly defendable provided the person you're talking to has a pair of functioning synapses.

"(Successful newspapers) never defend anyone; if forced to, they do so by denouncing someone else " - HL Mencken
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Old 09-09-2012, 01:14 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by LeHah
I think "Total Film readers" misunderstood the concepts between "most disappointing" and "movies they didn't like".

But the list wasn't to create discussion, simply bolster old established hatreds. Its a very "safe" list, written for common idiots to feel smart. "My opinion is bolstered by something I found in print! Other people agree with me! I must be part of a larger, thinking group and this proves it!"

Indeed.

The fact that Sucker Punch even appears anywhere on that list proves part of your point.

The "common idiots" were "disappointed" with Sucker Punch as they were too dumb to grasp that the partial intention of the film was to attack the kind of movie they expected it to be.

KOTCS, on the other hand, was a movie aimed precisely at those "common idiots". But succeeded in just being idiotic itself.
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Old 09-09-2012, 06:10 PM   #92
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Freaking Star wars is always ahead of Indiana Jones.... It get's tv shows,comics,books, toys, video games and everything under the sun


and the ONE time Indy is number 1 on a list it's for a disappointment...




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Old 09-10-2012, 08:08 AM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeHah
Silly, badly reasoned thinking. Indy 4 is my least favorite of the series but it's still a fun time and perfectly defendable provided the person you're talking to has a pair of functioning synapses.

"(Successful newspapers) never defend anyone; if forced to, they do so by denouncing someone else " - HL Mencken

Yeah, but it was disappointing, even if this weren't an Indiana Jones board. The fact that it made an all time list just illustrates the goodwill Indy (had) has...

What film was more disappointing in your eyes?

"My psychiatrist told me I was crazy so I said I want a second opinion. He said okay, you're ugly too." - R. Dangerfield
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Old 09-13-2012, 09:23 AM   #94
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Phantom Menace and Matrix Sequels are tops for me

And Quantum of Solace isnt that bad after repeat viewing, watching it immediately after Casino Royale like both were one 3 1/2 hr movie....biggest Bond disappointment to me to date is Diamonds are Forever.
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Old 09-14-2012, 03:46 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by featofstrength
Phantom Menace and Matrix Sequels are tops for me

And Quantum of Solace isnt that bad after repeat viewing, watching it immediately after Casino Royale like both were one 3 1/2 hr movie....biggest Bond disappointment to me to date is Diamonds are Forever.
Yes the Matrix sequels werent great by any stretch. But I still think Phantom Menace is better than those and also KOTCS. Diamonds are Forever is a good call too, especially as it was Connery and the most disappointing aspect is its a more light hearted Bond movie than the ones he did previously, I think that one set the tone for the Moore version of Bond.
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Old 09-14-2012, 06:44 PM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocket Surgeon
Yeah, but it was disappointing, even if this weren't an Indiana Jones board. The fact that it made an all time list just illustrates the goodwill Indy (had) has...

Well put. 'Most disappointing' doesn't mean 'worst', as in worst movies of all time. It's relative, because CS is a descendant of Raiders. CS should have been better, even if that means having been a very different movie, in fact that would have been necessary come to think of it!
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Old 09-15-2012, 10:08 AM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocket Surgeon
Yeah, but it was disappointing, even if this weren't an Indiana Jones board.

I'm going to reply to this with an email a close friend sent me when Crystal Skull originally hit theaters. The language is a little strong but I think it suits the purpose of the point he was trying to get across...

Self respect demands that you defriend these people. Never speak to
them again. They are a cancer. What they spread is the kind of crap
that eats away at the soul and makes a point of preventing you from
ever enjoying anything again. I am absolutely serious.

If they released Last Crusade today, that part of the internet would
be furious about how it wasn't as serious and dark as Temple of Doom
and how awful it was that it used characters from the original movie
instead of a new supporting cast. And here's the thing: the internet
would be *right* on every single critical point except the one that
actually matters - that Last Crusade was a great movie and a heck of a
lot of fun to go see.

Here's what the stupids on the internet don't get: academic
criticism is a *game*, not a science. Here is how the game works: in
any single situation ever it is possible to use your tiny human brain
to break apart any piece of art. Anyone can come up with pretty words
to explain why every movie or book or painting in the universe has
some terrible flaw. And it will sound especially convincing to idiots.

It's something English majors and people who glue dinosaurs back
together do to pass the time without taking even slightly seriously
that somehow got picked up by worst scum imaginable. That crap is what
happens when your little brother finds your Magic cards - he thinks
it's so cool that his vast intellectual superior has fun with this and
so he makes up his own rules, tears up the cards in frustration and
drools all over the place. In this case, I'm absolutely sure that I'm
not speaking figuratively.

Here's the bottom line: Crystal Skull was a good time. It makes all
the mistakes we imagined it would... it manages to make some of them
work in ways we never expected and falls flat on others. It also does
a lot of other *entertaining* (oh my!) things that I hadn't counted
on. I left the theater happy and I am much, much smarter than anyone
on your friends list.

CONCEPTUAL SPOILERS FOLLOW:

The amazing thing about Crystal Skull is that it's just another
Indiana Jones movie. It's abjectly not the brooding twilight farewell
movie we all assumed it would be. Spielberg/Lucas/whoever made this
movie (hurrr - nobody actually cares) managed to make a movie that
pretends we've been watching Indiana Jones movies for the past 19
years and that this is another one of them. The movie actually
directly apologizes for the fact that this didn't really happen at one
point. It's very cool.

It goes through hoop after hoop after hoop to create this illusion.
When Spielberg says it's just another movie, he's not trying to
deflect criticism -- he's directly stating the point of the film. I
could go on and on about what it does well and what it screws up (it
does many things well and screws up many others)... but whats the
point. Go have a good time at the movies.


Quote:
What film was more disappointing in your eyes?

I'm not sure about disappointed - that is such a specific emotional thing, I don't know if I can explain it? - but I can make a list of a bunch of far, far worse movies starting with Nolan's Batman films and going straight through Prometheus, that newer Spider-Man and heaps of other schlock.
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Old 09-15-2012, 11:13 AM   #98
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Disappointment is merely a reflection of the result versus the expectation.

Since I had no anticipation, and therefore no expectation, for KOTCS, its position on the list is really irrelevant.

My reaction is that it was an uninvolving and poorly constructed exercise in exploiting a character already in the popular consciousness.

In the end I only viewed it because I relented to curiosity.

I wanted to see if it was as ridiculous as it looked in the trailers that had played on television. It was certainly not a film I intended to see in a cinema. Why break a tradition of never having seen an Indy film in the cinema? And it was certainly not a film I intended to buy on disc at retail.

I do find it curious, however, that a film so obviously intended for the under-twelves ended up with a PG-13 certificate.
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Old 09-17-2012, 11:50 AM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Montana Smith
Disappointment is merely a reflection of the result versus the expectation.

Since I had no anticipation, and therefore no expectation, for KOTCS, its position on the list is really irrelevant.

My reaction is that it was an uninvolving and poorly constructed exercise in exploiting a character already in the popular consciousness.

In the end I only viewed it because I relented to curiosity.

I wanted to see if it was as ridiculous as it looked in the trailers that had played on television. It was certainly not a film I intended to see in a cinema. Why break a tradition of never having seen an Indy film in the cinema? And it was certainly not a film I intended to buy on disc at retail.

I do find it curious, however, that a film so obviously intended for the under-twelves ended up with a PG-13 certificate.

Am I allowed to be slightly insulted by the unspoken accusation that those who loved it have the intellect of someone under twelve?
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Old 09-17-2012, 11:55 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by kongisking
Am I allowed to be slightly insulted by the unspoken accusation that those who loved it have the intellect of someone under twelve?

Of course.

Quote:
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