CS Haters Thread: Things you actually LIKE about it

Montana Smith

Active member
Rocket Surgeon said:
Oi, trickster...what THE hell are you on about?

A temple of Christ protecting a Grail that cannot in any case be removed, by means of deadly traps and fatal false grails. Hardly the ideal of Christ-like love and forgiveness, but very much in line with the vindictive Aliens of KOTCS. Likewise the murderous Ark in Raiders.

goodeknight said:
Yeah, it makes much more sense to know that aliens came down, tricked people by playing a humble carpenter, got them to think He was God's son, and then used their awesome alien-brain-technology to imbue a "cup of a carpenter" with what would appear to be supernatural healing powers. If Henry Sr. broke it in half and looked at the cross section, he would have found real illumination. He would have seen it was an intricate machine, perhaps alien manufactured nanobots that do instant surgery on wounds, that healed him, not faith, or the power of God.

All religions with a common source, misinterpreted in millions of ways by the superstitious humans inhabiting Indy's world.

It covers all gods and their fairytale religions, not just Christian, Hebrew, Hindu etc, but of the ancient Greeks, Romans, Egyptians and so on. It also permits phenomena perceived as magic/supernatural.


Aliens make for more interesting and believable fictional bullsh!t than, for example, the Bible bullsh!t that gets passed off as truth, and over which wars are endlessly fought. :gun:
 
Montana Smith said:
A temple of Christ
No, a temple of man:
Montana Smith said:
protecting a Grail
of Christ
Montana Smith said:
...that cannot in any case be removed, by means of
man made
Montana Smith said:
deadly traps and fatal false grails.

Montana Smith said:
Hardly the ideal of Christ-like love and forgiveness,
but protection from evil which truly exists.

This isn't some sacrament or right of passage we're required to participate in...

...and you're irked by German Soldiers referred to as Nazis!:rolleyes:

Montana Smith said:
but very much in line with the vindictive Aliens of KOTCS. Likewise the murderous Ark in Raiders.
The Aliens are a bit unique...like you say Indy had no free will.
 

Montana Smith

Active member
Rocket Surgeon said:
No, a temple of man: of Christ
man made


but protection from evil which truly exists.

This isn't some sacrament or right of passage we're required to participate in...

Man-made outside of fiction because man invented all the gods.

Rocket Surgeon said:
...and you're irked by German Soldiers referred to as Nazis!:rolleyes:

I'm irked by all forms of bullsh!t.
 
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Dr. Gonzo

New member
I was let down by the film...

But I do like the first part of the film (from the warehouse to doom town)... and I believe I like it because it felt like it was the only time it was an Indiana Jones film... The only time, to me, that Indy was actually doing things.
 

Lance Quazar

Well-known member
Rocket Surgeon said:
Eh, you or Montana...

No, I definitely said it. At least at rebelscum, probably here, too.

But there's no reason why you wouldn't have come to that conclusion on your own.
 

Dr. Gonzo

New member
Rocket Surgeon said:
The anticipation.

The friends I've made here at the Raven...

Yeah I have to agree, waiting for the film to come out and talking about all the possibilities with you guys was probably the best part.

I haven't looked forward to anything like that since.
 
about the shirt sold on Teefury yesterday...
408646_10151020520275855_1801774785_n.jpg

about 80% of the comments about it bashed CS, and about 50% said the inclusion of the skull was a dealbreaker

**** them...I bought one(y)
 

OmegaSeamaster

New member
"Loved when Indy referenced riding with Pancho Villa. For me that legitimized the whole YIJC in one shot."

Funny you should say this, because when he said this line I winced.

I had written off, when I was a kid, the entire YIJC series as being non-canon.

Besides thinking that it was too silly for someone to have run into every significant person that ever lived, the Indiana Jones of ROTLA was a tough, hard-ass who killed when the situation called for it.

I didn't see anything in YIJC that accounted for this transformation into a tough-as-nails treasure hunter. Yet another example of Lucas softening his characters over time into neutered family friendly shadows of their former selves.
 

Indy Jones

Active member
Montana's posts are hilarious to me. As far as I'm concerned, the films depict that God clearly exists. Now, they don't seem to admit to him being the only diety, but they admit that the Christian God must exist because of the powers of the Ark and the Grail. People like Montana who are clearly Athiests should not like any Indiana Jones film EXCEPT for KOTCS. If you hate Christianity, you should have no business endorsing or enjoying any film which acknowledges it being true. To do otherwise is hypocritical. Being amused by religion is one thing, it would make sense to like a movie which does so because you're not bothered by it. But someone who clearly has hate for Christianity should be annoyed by ROTLA and LC.

And the Ark smote the Nazis because they were evil. If Indy deserved that punishment, God would have smote him just for removing the Ark from the Well of the Souls. In effect, the film basically reveals in that scene that Indy did not need to pursue the Ark--God would have never let them use the power of it anyway. Indy's humility in telling Marion not to look upon the Ark is why the rope is magically burned away but not their hands--God rewarded them for being humble enough to know they were unworthy to view the act of God.

I'm a believer but I'm not trying to condemn a lack thereof. Just pointing out the obvious implications of the film (And arguing about my beliefs will not get me to change them, so don't bother).

Now you did, however, bring up a good plot hole from LC, Montana. The Grail didn't need the traps or the knight to guard it if it couldn't be taken past the seal anyway. I literally never noticed that. I'm sure by being taken past the seal the immortality is undone and any wanderer would have tried to walk off with it anyway, so problem solved. Yet another goof on the part of LC.
 

Mickiana

Well-known member
CS did reinvigorate my interest in Indiana Jones and I find it hard to not at least dip into the The Raven for a quick drink and chat and have a listen to the old and new topics of discussion amongst the other patrons. Cheers to that and to any future Indy projects that we might be lucky enough to receive and mull over at the bar.
 

Montana Smith

Active member
Indy Jones said:
Montana's posts are hilarious to me. As far as I'm concerned, the films depict that God clearly exists.

That's only because you've already sold yourself to the fiction.

Indy Jones said:
Now, they don't seem to admit to him being the only diety, but they admit that the Christian God must exist because of the powers of the Ark and the Grail.

The films don't admit anything but the views expressed by the characters existing within it. Because they don't see God they assume that ghosts and fatal lights must be evidence of the existence of their wonderful creator.

People have been making assumptions like these for thousands of years. In spite of science these crazy beliefs still exist because so many are either gullible or afraid.

Indy Jones said:
People like Montana who are clearly Athiests should not like any Indiana Jones film EXCEPT for KOTCS.

It's a fact that I never was a big fan of Indy. Never saw a single film at the cinema, though I read the novels and had the WEG roleplaying games.

The Ark and the Grail have been sticking points that I've had to explain away as hoaxes to sustain the enjoyment of the adventure, situations and character.

Notice that I only joined here after KOTCS. That's because it was the film that improved the original trilogy, while not being very well created itself.

Coincident with that my first reading of the 1978 Story Conference Transcripts.

Lucas was interested in Erich von Däniken's myth-history. Since childhood that myth-history has been far more attractive than the even hokier one expounded in the books of the Bible. Especially moreso because it isn't picked up and bandied about as truth by as many people.

How many wars have been fought over opposing versions of alien-history?

It would be like going to war to avenge Tolkien's Sauron, or blowing yourself up because your prophet is better than one who supposedly died on a cross.


The alien angle is a perfect back story to Indy's world. It permits followers of all religions to interpret their beliefs, and to experience magical occurences that validate those beliefs. Yet it also allows the aliens to set man against man, in the fashion of the Greek gods playing games with clay figurines.

Indy Jones said:
If you hate Christianity, you should have no business endorsing or enjoying any film which acknowledges it being true.

It doesn't endorse it. If you think it does then you should re-evaluate what that set of beliefs means to you.

The Christianity of TLC is little different from that endorsed by the crusades:

'Our God is better than your god, so we're going to invade your lands and take your women, your valuables and probably your life.'


Indy Jones said:
And the Ark smote the Nazis because they were evil.

It killed Indy's opponents because the main protagonist and his squeeze can't die in a Saturday morning cliffhanger.
 

Toht's Arm

Active member
I'll try and sidestep the slightly antagonistic tone that's appeared in the last few posts, but my quick query is along these lines:

I didn't think the presence of aliens or IDBs precluded the gods hinted at in the original trilogy. I thought these aliens had a hand in various ancient civilisations but were basically collectors, popping in and out of locations throughout history. I didn't think it was saying that the aliens were behind the godlike powers we witnessed in the previous films.

I thought that was one of major differences between KotCS and Darabont's City of the Gods, which IIRC suggested that aliens were behind ALL ancient civilisations.

That's not an incorrect interpretation of KotCS and CotG, is it?
 

Indy Jones

Active member
Toht's Arm said:
I'll try and sidestep the slightly antagonistic tone that's appeared in the last few posts, but my quick query is along these lines

I don't care what he has to say, and I wasn't trying to sound antagonistic. He's the one that wants to rub his atheism in others' faces. Like I've noticed most athiests do. I was just stating something which is blatently incongruent--which is that someone who is athiest bothering to watch or enjoy Indiana Jones films, films which suggest the existence of any higher power.

The idea that KOTCS now makes the other films' macguffins "alien-powered" is just dumb and attempted justification for someone who wants to love the others but can't get over the idea that it preaches something they don't like. The first 3 were not made with the knowledge that aliens would be the macguffin for the 4th film, so you can't view the others through that prisim as being intentional. If I decided that Indy having a son means that he had a visectomy in the first three films, and then before the 4th he had it reversed, and that's why he didn't have kids before the 4th... that's just bull**** fanwank. Doesn't make it canon.

The irreplacable fact is that the first three are stating that their macguffins are the real deal. Basic logic: if the films don't go out of their way to explain explicitly that it isn't what the characters think it is (and the films don't), then you are left with no recourse but to assume that's what they are. The 4th film doesn't retroactively explain those as aliens. Not in any way. If that's how you want to "read between the lines" to see it, that's one thing. But it doesn't make it true. Holding early story meetings as canon is even dumber--by that logic, Luke's real name must be Starkiller, not Skywalker. Just because it was a passing thought doesn't make it canon (not that the stuff Montana mentions points to aliens in any actual way. The mention of God in Lucas' quotes is not implicitly sarcastic. Thus, clearly he's not talking about God in a 'fake' context). Furthermore, Spielberg would be the bottom line on the authenticity, and given that Spielberg is Jewish, I doubt that he seems God as nonexistant in the films as far as I know.

Stop trying to trick yourself into liking something you shouldn't. Or you could grow up and stop being offended at others' beliefs. I'm not offended by your beliefs... You being an athiest is your problem... I'm just inclined to poke holes in your baseless arguments.
 
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Montana Smith

Active member
Indy Jones said:
Stop trying to trick yourself into liking something you shouldn't. Or you could grow up and stop being offended at others' beliefs. I'm not offended by your beliefs... You being an athiest is your problem... I'm just inclined to poke holes in your baseless arguments.


I'm not arguing with you. Of course, that would be foolish. People believe what they want.

I thought it was time in my last days in this establishment to set out what KOTCS means to me in relation to the original trilogy, and how those earlier films have rested uneasily since I read ROTLA all those years ago.

For some time it's been hard maintaining an interest here. Familiarity breeds contempt.

Speaking of "baseless arguments" you'll get wet in your greenhouse after throwing those stones.
 

Mickiana

Well-known member
Montana Smith said:
my last days in this establishment

You can't go, Montana. You're a pillar here. I don't contribute much, but I love reading your contributions as well as many of the others. If you do go, I'll miss you and you don't want that on your conscience now, do you?
 
Mickiana said:
You can't go, Montana...
I wouldn't fret too much, he loves rubbing his ass on the carpet and generally leaving his scent around here...

Paraphrasing NBC re:Howard Stern

Researcher:The average forum vistor reads for eighteen minutes. The average Raven Visitor reads for - are you ready for this? - an hour and twenty minutes.
Pig Vomit: How can that be?
Researcher: Answer most commonly given? "I want to see what they'll say next."
Pig Vomit: Okay, fine. But what about the people who hate The Raven?
Researcher: Good point. The average Raven hater reads for two and a half hours a day.
Pig Vomit: But... if they it, why do they read?
Researcher: Most common answer? "I want to see what they'll say next."
 

Goodeknight

New member
Montana Smith said:
The films don't admit anything but the views expressed by the characters existing within it. Because they don't see God they assume that ghosts and fatal lights must be evidence of the existence of their wonderful creator.
So, the ghosts are aliens? Alien ghosts? Regular people ghosts? And that's more acceptable and plausible than the existence of God? Perhaps you should borrow some gear from the Ghostbusters to prove your point, whatever the heck it is.

Montana Smith said:
It's a fact that I never was a big fan of Indy.
So how in...skull's name...the universe's name?...whatever -- do you rack up rack 8,000+ posts on a forum dedicated to films you're not that into?? Perhaps by hijacking relatively straightforward threads, like, "Things haters actually like about CS"

Montana Smith said:
The Ark and the Grail have been sticking points that I've had to explain away as hoaxes to sustain the enjoyment of the adventure, situations and character.
Now I understand. The "ghosts" from the Ark are really an elaborate hoax. I guess if you're using alien technology, you can pull off some pretty amazing hoaxes. I'd love to watch Funniest Alien Home Videos.

Montana Smith said:
Lucas was interested in Erich von Däniken's myth-history.
Lucas was much better off with Joseph Campbell. PLEASE read anything a legitimate scholar wrote about von Daniken. Practically every idiotic theory he ever posed has been clearly and simply refuted. And he himself admitted many of his "facts" were outright fabrications. Really, teenagers are into von Daniken. So get back to the library and do some real reading. Then you'll have another 8,000 posts worth of apologies to write.

Indy Jones said:
Montana's posts are hilarious to me. As far as I'm concerned, the films depict that God clearly exists.
Right on, Indy Jones. If you need any further proof that the films acknowledge the existence of God, just listen to the accompanying soundtracks. That's not music for "alien hoax." It's music that goes along with the awe of watching the creator of the universe at work.

Now then -- climbing back into the sandbox to play with the other kids -- GIMMEE BACK MY THREAD!!

Does anyone else want to point out something they liked about CS?
 
goodeknight said:
Does anyone else want to point out something they liked about CS?
Uh, I like that you're fired up about it...

goodeknight said:
Now then -- climbing back into the sandbox to play with the other kids -- GIMMEE BACK MY THREAD!!
Sorry about that chief!:eek:

I can appreciate that aliens make it more palatable for him...the fact that it's TOO contemporary an idea kills it for me personally.

Not enough dust and a severe lack of mystery.
 

Montana Smith

Active member
goodeknight said:
Lucas was much better off with Joseph Campbell. PLEASE read anything a legitimate scholar wrote about von Daniken. Practically every idiotic theory he ever posed has been clearly and simply refuted. And he himself admitted many of his "facts" were outright fabrications. Really, teenagers are into von Daniken. So get back to the library and do some real reading. Then you'll have another 8,000 posts worth of apologies to write.

Why don't you pull your head out of your arse and do some reading yourself.

Smiffy said:
Aliens make for more interesting and believable fictional bullsh!t than, for example, the Bible bullsh!t that gets passed off as truth, and over which wars are endlessly fought.
 
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