Why do you hate Willie Scott?

Stoo · Dec 15, 2011

Rocket Surgeon said:
Unfortunately we got Willie and not a decent character or actress.

After avoiding this thread for so long, it's time to join the fray...

What we got in "Doom" was the sexiest, hottest Indy-chick to date. Deny it all you want but Willie is a gorgeous BABE!

Col. Detritch said:
Willie fits the era and the stereotype these serials perpetuated.

No, Col. Detritch. The 'damsel-in-distress', serial genre was dead by the mid-1930s. The serial women of Willie's time were brave and, sometimes, even the lead characters! :gun:

(However, I agree with you that not every woman who Indy has an adventure with needs to be "independent & tough". That's too much of a formula.)

Col. Detritch said:
I mean honestly, how many movies have I seen her in again?

Off the top of my head, Kate was in "Best Defense", "Dreamscape" and "Space Camp".

Montana Smith · Dec 15, 2011

Stoo said:
What we got in "Doom" was the sexiest, hottest Indy-chick to date. Deny it all you want but Willie is a gorgeous BABE!

In the voice of the Churchill bulldog, "Ohhh, yes."

Stoo said:
No, Col. Detritch. The 'damsel-in-distress', serial genre was dead by the mid-1930s. The serial women of Willie's time were brave and, sometimes, even the lead characters!

Yes, they often got involved in the action, though tended to suffer from glass jaws. I suppose it wouldn't be seemly to throw a lady around too much!

And that reminds me of another Indy-ism in Manhunt of Mystery Island relating to Willie herself...

Rocket Surgeon · Dec 16, 2011

Stoo said:
What we got in "Doom" was the sexiest, hottest Indy-chick to date. Deny it all you want but Willie is a gorgeous BABE!

Wrap it up nice and paint it pretty and she's an object. But there's more to it than that...she has a voice like a false grail.

Plus she only looked hot in THE red dress.

Stoo said:
...I agree with you that not every woman who Indy has an adventure with needs to be "independent & tough"

I'm with ye on that...

Stoo said:
Off the top of my head, Kate was in "Best Defense", "Dreamscape" and "Space Camp".

...and Black Rain, uh ummm...A Girl Thing, (she had no business marring the screen with Elle).

Montana Smith · Dec 16, 2011

Rocket Surgeon said:
Plus she only looked hot in THE red dress.

Only the red dress?

Darth Vile · Dec 16, 2011

Kate Capshaw was/is a fine looking woman for sure... The problem I have with the character/actor (because it is probably a bit of both) is that she's very hard to like in any capacity. Although I wanted to slap the characters of Scarlett O'Hara, Gilda, Tracy (The Philadelphia Story) etc. I fancied them too. I understood why, even though they were spoilt or conniving, they were desired by the leading man or why the leading man was attracted by their imperfect ways. However, with Willie, I just want to slap her and leave...

I think the character, in principle, was right for the story and appropriate for the second Indy movie... but just didn't work particularly well on screen. I don't think the script helped Kate, but I can't help but think that the likes of Hepburn, Bette Davis et al would have nailed it with the same material (if younger versions of themselves had been around in the 80's that is).

Montana Smith · Dec 16, 2011

Darth Vile said:
Kate Capshaw was/is a fine looking woman for sure... The problem I have with the character/actor (because it is probably a bit of both) is that she's very hard to like in any capacity. Although I wanted to slap the characters of Scarlett O'Hara, Gilda, Tracy (The Philadelphia Story) etc. I fancied them too. I understood why, even though they were spoilt or conniving, they were desired by the leading man or why the leading man was attracted by their imperfect ways. However, with Willie, I just want to slap her and leave...

I think the character, in principle, was right for the story and appropriate for the second Indy movie... but just didn't work particularly well on screen. I don't think the script helped Kate, but I can't help but think that the likes of Hepburn, Bette Davis et al would have nailed it with the same material (if younger versions of themselves had been around in the 80's that is).

TOD seemed to be intent on breaking the ROTLA mould before it became a formula. So out went the college and the tough female lead. And I agree that while a spoilt character can also be appealing, Willie didn't have much going for her apart from her physical attributes.

The Drifter · Dec 16, 2011

Rocket Surgeon said:
Ok, for starters Indiana Jones DESERVED it. Whatever he did even his boss and your avatar Marcus knew enough to say that Marion was the least of his worries. You're WAY off base on that one.

He may have deserved it, but she sucker-punched him. If she's so badass, why didn't she just walk up to him, cuss him out, and knee him in the nuts? No, she had to sucker punch him, just like she did too that poor guy who she knocked in the head with the frying pan!

The only thing Indy did to Willie was pull her bacon out of the fire...(read "fat ass"), and that means SAVE her. Something she didn't even attempt to do for little old Mr Round.

Like I said before, she did save Mr. Round's life on the rope bridge. She saved Indy and Mr. Round's life during the spike room scene even if it meant her facing her own fears.

She declares they are partners UNTIL she gets her money. Who cares what Indy needs? Indy wants to play, Indy's got to pay. That's just fair baby.

That was another thing b!tchy about Marion. She demanded more money because she wanted to get back to America in style. She had more than enough cash to get back. If I were Indy, I would have told her to shut up and and suck it up.

Hmmm, flirting makes you a bitch? No meat on that bone.

It does when you are also flirting with Dr. Jones at the same time!

Ew! No wonder you like Willie! You blow, things out of all proportion! Next thing you know you'll claim she was a lesbian and a pedophile because she sent kisses to his wife and kids.

No, because the one she sent to his wife and kids was on his cheek. She gave Sallah his right on his cracked lips. I think I even saw some tongue action going on. That was way too much!

Was that when she knocked out Frank Marshall so he couldn't shoot Indy and then tried to get him off the controls so they didn't attract any MORE attention?

And, then she locked herself in the cockpit and started a huge gas leak and fire. She gave Indy more trouble than Willie ever did.

otto rahn · Dec 16, 2011

As Indy says at one point ""the biggest problem with her is the noise". However, while she starts out as aggravating and noisy and afraid of EVERYTHING, by the later parts of the film Willie is willing to defend herself and Short Round rather than just run screaming from every menace. She has grown more heroic during the course of the adventure, I like that !

The Drifter · Dec 16, 2011

otto rahn said:
As Indy says at one point ""the biggest problem with her is the noise". However, while she starts out as aggravating and noisy and afraid of EVERYTHING, by the later parts of the film Willie is willing to defend herself and Short Round rather than just run screaming from every menace. She has grown more heroic during the course of the adventure, I like that !

This is what most people fail (or refuse) to acknowledge.

Col. Detritch · Dec 16, 2011

Originally Posted by Rocket Surgeon
Showing a terrified Short Round would have plunged the film to even darker territory.

Which is why it didn't happen and we got Willie instead. I was just making a side note that if the child wasn't going to be the terrified 'victim' then an over-the-top female lead was the next best thing for this kind of movie (whether or not you agree it was the 'next best thing' is completely personal).

Huh? She was terrified by Toht, scared of snakes and mummies, grossed out by the mechanic's close shave and awestuck/crying at the end of Raiders.

Come on, you have to do better than that!

I'll try to step up my game, you've got me on my toes.

I know Marion got scared in Raiders, most people would get a little fright out of experiencing those series of events, but that's a different degree of scared in my opinion. Every little thing is out to 'get' Willie in ToD, even when its mild, so she gets scared A LOT which is what she's there for honestly. We only see Marion get scared by genuinely scary situations (tied to a pole and lunged at by a mystery digger who could assault her, trapped with a gestapo agent twice - once with a hot steel prod, trapped in a tomb with deadly snakes, witnessing a man getting shredded, Wrath of God - the usual scary things) in ToD she would have probably sucked it up and faced the adversity as best she could. Being, well, more of a partner than a damsel-in-distress.

WHAT?
...
It was one note though. It never changed. It's the same thing over and over. It ultimately FAILS towards the end. It's so constant we become desensitized to it. We don't share the emotion we write her off.

While I admit that the scenario with Marion in ToD is quite entertaining and that, yes, I truly do believe Marion is a superior leading lady, we can't always have Marion. Things would get repetitive. And yeah, Willie is just one-note and doesn't leave an emotional impact but I don't mind that seeing as the entire movie of ToD failed to resonate with me emotionally anyway (still like it but no emotional connection whatsoever).

How is it irrelevant?
...
Who knows but you? How many?

Well I've only seen her in a small selection forgettable movies, many of which, need I say, I did not enjoy

My point being? Her work ethic is irrelevant because she got what was coming to her career-wise. No big career and no self-made fortune a glory of her own. That's what you get when you don't try. We only remember her 'cause she bedded Stevie.

Originally Posted by Stoo
What we got in "Doom" was the sexiest, hottest Indy-chick to date.
...
No, Col. Detritch. The 'damsel-in-distress', serial genre was dead by the mid-1930s. The serial women of Willie's time were brave and, sometimes, even the lead characters! (However, I agree with you that not every woman who Indy has an adventure with needs to be "independent & tough". That's too much of a formula.)

This seems to be more your field than mine, Stoo. Willie was indeed a damsel-in-distress, though as I have been informed, not typical to the serials of the time. Sorry for the confusion. Oh and I think you meant Alison Doody when you said sexiest Indy-chick

Rocket Surgeon · Dec 21, 2011

Montana Smith said:
Only the red dress?

Yeah, her boobs look saggy.

She's wrapped up tight in the red dress though.

Darth Vile said:
I think the character, in principle, was right for the story and appropriate for the second Indy movie... but just didn't work particularly well on screen. I don't think the script helped Kate, but I can't help but think that the likes of Hepburn, Bette Davis et al would have nailed it with the same material (if younger versions of themselves had been around in the 80's that is).

I agree the idea is fine, and a SERIOUS invested/experienced actress would have/could have brought some craft to the role.

The Drifter said:
He may have deserved it, but she sucker-punched him. If she's so badass, why didn't she just walk up to him, cuss him out, and knee him in the nuts?

Dude, you have some irreparable issues if you think getting kicked in the nuts is preferrable to a punch in the face!

Twice as many if you consider the punch LESS expected than a knee to the nuts!

The Drifter said:
No, she had to sucker punch him, just like she did too that poor guy who she knocked in the head with the frying pan!

What's the difference between surprising him by kneeing his nuts and surprising him with a punch? Oh, and the guy chasing her with the knife DIDN'T get fair warning?

You're off your game laddie.

The Drifter said:
Like I said before, she did save Mr. Round's life on the rope bridge.

That slut pulled him up so he could test the rest of the slats...puh-lease!

The Drifter said:
She saved Indy and Mr. Round's life during the spike room scene even if it meant her facing her own fears.

Sound the trumpets! Willie stepped on some insects! She faced her own fears! HA! She cracked another nail!

The Drifter said:
That was another thing b!tchy about Marion. She demanded more money because she wanted to get back to America in style.

Hmmm, you take first offer on YOUR home when you sold it? B!TCH!

The Drifter said:
She had more than enough cash to get back. If I were Indy, I would have told her to shut up and and suck it up.

...and if }ifs and buts" were candy and nuts we'd all have a lovely Christmas!

You'd also NOT get the headpiece...Indy wasn't playing with Indy's money and he didn't care. He shot right back with a 66% increase.

Now THAT's solid negotiating.

The Drifter said:
It does when you are also flirting with Dr. Jones at the same time!

Next time Raiders comes on your TV, open your eyes!

The Drifter said:
No, because the one she sent to his wife and kids was on his cheek. She gave Sallah his right on his cracked lips. I think I even saw some tongue action going on. That was way too much!

Just saw it on the Silver Screen and I can allay your fears...thinking just fills the room with smoke, no tongue, no cracked lips. Let it go.

The Drifter said:
And, then she locked herself in the cockpit and started a huge gas leak and fire. She gave Indy more trouble than Willie ever did.

Ok, you're right she gave him more trouble...no.

otto rahn said:
...Willie is willing to defend herself and Short Round rather than just run screaming from every menace. She has grown more heroic during the course of the adventure, I like that !

Examples PLEASE!

Col. Detritch said:
Which is why it didn't happen and we got Willie instead. I was just making a side note that if the child wasn't going to be the terrified 'victim' then an over-the-top female lead was the next best thing for this kind of movie (whether or not you agree it was the 'next best thing' is completely personal).

You wrote:

a terrified child could have worked quite well

Shorty or not it would have:

Originally Posted by Rocket Surgeon
...plunged the film to even darker territory.

Col. Detritch said:
We only see Marion get scared by genuinely scary situations (tied to a pole and lunged at by a mystery digger who could assault her, trapped with a gestapo agent twice - once with a hot steel prod, trapped in a tomb with deadly snakes, witnessing a man getting shredded, Wrath of God - the usual scary things) in ToD she would have probably sucked it up and faced the adversity as best she could. Being, well, more of a partner than a damsel-in-distress.

I think mobsters, the fall from Club Obi Wan, jumping out of a plane...would have proven scary enough. That Willie had no sympathy for the wreckage and starving of Mayapore shows too great a disconnect.

Col. Detritch said:
While I admit that the scenario with Marion in ToD is quite entertaining and that, yes, I truly do believe Marion is a superior leading lady, we can't always have Marion. Things would get repetitive. And yeah, Willie is just one-note and doesn't leave an emotional impact but I don't mind that seeing as the entire movie of ToD failed to resonate with me emotionally anyway (still like it but no emotional connection whatsoever).

For me it's worth a walk on...it's just not sustainable entertainment to go unchanged over two hours.

She sucked.

Capshaw or Willie. Take your pick.

Henry W Jones · Dec 21, 2011

Rocket Surgeon said:
Heh heh hehahhhhh...it never gets old, doest it? ACTING!

Once again while I can tolerate Willie in that one film... You are correct. She is a weak character and her acting was not top shelf by any means. Anyone can watch the bonus material and see that. She couldn't even do her own screams and complained about doing scenes that she would have been aware of if she had read the script first (As you have pointed out). That's always a bad sign when your leading lady doesn't care enough about the film to even give the script a quick glance. I think she even states not having any interest in doing that kind of film and she's too serious of an actress to play that kind of role. Great choice Steve!!!! At least you get to have sex with her, right?

Stoo · Dec 21, 2011

Rocket Surgeon said:
Plus she only looked hot in THE red dress.

Not just THE red dress because she looks smokin' in satin pajamas, too.

Montana Smith said:
In the voice of the Churchill bulldog, "Ohhh, yes."

Ha! I get UK channels in the Switz so I've seen those commercials!

Col. Detritch said:
This seems to be more your field than mine, Stoo. Willie was indeed a damsel-in-distress, though as I have been informed, not typical to the serials of the time. Sorry for the confusion. Oh and I think you meant Alison Doody when you said sexiest Indy-chick.

Heh heh. I most certainly meant Willie. Anyway, nice to see you posting again, Colonel! (As well as otto rahn.) :hat:

Col. Detritch · Dec 21, 2011

Originally Posted by Stoo
Heh heh. I most certainly meant Willie. Anyway, nice to see you posting again, Colonel! (As well as otto rahn.)

Glad to be back!

I do believe Indy had his pick of fine women. Lucky b*stard.

Originally Posted by Col. Detritch
Which is why it didn't happen and we got Willie instead. I was just making a side note that if the child wasn't going to be the terrified 'victim' then an over-the-top female lead was the next best thing for this kind of movie (whether or not you agree it was the 'next best thing' is completely personal).

Click to expand...

You wrote:

a terrified child could have worked quite well

Click to expand...

Shorty or not it would have:

Originally Posted by Rocket Surgeon
...plunged the film to even darker territory.

Click to expand...

I think I might need to explain myself at this point. What I meant with this particular quote was, and this is not personal preference here, the only other existing 'tag-along' character in ToD was Short Round, who happened to be a child. And I already stated that ToD needs a 'victim' with a more realistic, if not more humorous, reaction to the nightmarish adventure. All I was saying is that, being the only other character tagging along with Indy AND being a child, Shorty is the next prime candidate for this position. However, as you stated, a terrified child in a terrifying situation is not very fun for an adventure-seeking audience, it's quite dark. So because of that darkness they used a ditsy adult female lead; thus Willie serves a purpose. And to clarify, although a terrified child does work quite well in context, it just wouldn't have worked so well in ToD's context.

As for my pick, I'll take Willie. At least she goes away after two hours.

:hat:

Rocket Surgeon · Dec 22, 2011

Stoo said:
Not just THE red dress because she looks smokin' in satin pajamas, too.

Never liked the feathered hair...too eighties.

Bothers me more than a rocket launcher in the 30's.

Plus she's got a sour puss on...probably wondering if she should take the chance that Indy might notice her inflamation without his glasses on.

Col. Detritch said:
... a terrified child in a terrifying situation is not very fun for an adventure-seeking audience, it's quite dark...thus Willie serves a purpose. And to clarify, although a terrified child does work quite well in context, it just wouldn't have worked so well in ToD's context.

Ahh...wouldn't be the first time I read something wrong.

Col. Detritch said:
As for my pick, I'll take Willie. At least she goes away after two hours.

Problem is she's the kind to give "the gift* that keeps on giving".

*see above re:inflamation

Montana Smith · Dec 22, 2011

Rocket Surgeon said:
Problem is she's the kind to give "the gift* that keeps on giving".

*see above re:inflamation

It would explain Indy's reticence that night.

Rocket Surgeon · Dec 22, 2011

Montana Smith said:
It would explain Indy's reticence that night.

The benefits of a highly trained probicis...thank all thats holy we didn't have Smell-O-Vision!

Col. Detritch · Dec 22, 2011

Originally Posted by Rocket Surgeon
Problem is she's the kind to give "the gift* that keeps on giving".

*see above re:inflamation

The benefits of a highly trained probicis...thank all thats holy we didn't have Smell-O-Vision!

Hahahaha! Rocket, your comment made my day. That being said, I don't think I'll be watching any ToD for a little while after this lol.

The Drifter · Dec 22, 2011

Rocko, I am man enough to admit that you have some good points that I can't oppose. But, I still think Willie matured as a character throughout the movie. I still think she saved Shortie's life, and that it wasn't a selfish act. I also think she showed a motherly side toward him as the movie progressed.
And, I still think that Marion is way overrated, and she annoyed me in Raiders. The tough-girl theme is just as played out as the helpless maiden motif.

Maybe this stems from my biased view of ToD? Maybe yours does too? Raider's is your favorite of them all, correct?

Rocket Surgeon · Dec 23, 2011

The Drifter said:
But, I still think Willie matured as a character throughout the movie.

Ok, how?

The Drifter said:
I still think she saved Shortie's life, and that it wasn't a selfish act.

Debatable, I think Shorty could have pulled himself up...especially after showing that the mines were his personal jungle gym.

But I'll give you that one minor thing...that one eintsy bitsy little gesture. But because Shorty pretty much helped himself, ( and Indy) throughout the film, I still wouldn't save she SAVED him.

The Drifter said:
I also think she showed a motherly side toward him as the movie progressed.

She wanted to puke in his hat...fought with him over it, and she let him go after the GIANT thuggee while she hid in the mine cart.

I'm having a hard time seeing her "motherly" qualities. I mean, I can see how and where she's a mother f----r. But you have to give me some examples of this motherly side. Meet me halfway at least!

The Drifter said:
And, I still think that Marion is way overrated, and she annoyed me in Raiders.

If she annoyed you I can understand why you think she's overrated, but I have no idea what made her so annoying to you. It would be interesting to read since I think so differently on the matter.

The Drifter said:
The tough-girl theme is just as played out as the helpless maiden motif.

Well if you watch Underworld and Resident Evil and The Matrix and Tomb Raider and Kill Bill and Buffy and Alias and what was I trying to point out...?

Oh yeah, you watch enough crap and it's bound to grate. Marion's a tough girl, but not a superhero. I doubt you can supply enough tough girl examples before Raiders to prove the "theme" "played out".
This isn't an invitation for all you jack asses to start spouting Myrna Loy...ect. This is meant to be a way for Drifter to explain himself.

The Drifter said:
Maybe this stems from my biased view of ToD?

Among other things I'm sure.

The Drifter said:
Maybe yours does too?

I think my appreciation of the character went more towards liking Raiders than liking her because I like Raiders best.

I can say Liking Temple helps me stomach Willie, but the barest of barely.

The Drifter said:
Raider's is your favorite of them all, correct?

Absolutley!

Why do you hate Willie Scott?

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