Sallah and the Holy Grail

Col. Detritch

Col. Detritch

New member
Given his name is Sallah Mohammed Faisel el-Kahir (focusing on the ?Mohammed?- a name commonly handed down through Islamic families after the prophet Mohammed/Muhammad) and that he was born and raised in Egypt where he raised a total of nine children, it?s fare to assume that Sallah is a Muslim. With this information I?ve always wondered how he dealt with finding the Holy Grail and witnessing its miracle when it is a principle relic in Christianity which contradicts his own faith (not that Islam and Christianity aren?t similar it?s just you can?t believe in both ;) ). This would be a life changing event in the religious choices of anyone, and I always wondered how this would have affected him spiritually. :hat:
 
M

Montana Smith

Active member
Col. Detritch said:
Given his name is Sallah Mohammed Faisel el-Kahir (focusing on the ‘Mohammed’- a name commonly handed down through Islamic families after the prophet Mohammed/Muhammad) and that he was born and raised in Egypt where he raised a total of nine children, it’s fare to assume that Sallah is a Muslim. With this information I’ve always wondered how he dealt with finding the Holy Grail and witnessing its miracle when it is a principle relic in Christianity which contradicts his own faith (not that Islam and Christianity aren’t similar it’s just you can’t believe in both ;) ). This would be a life changing event in the religious choices of anyone, and I always wondered how this would have affected him spiritually. :hat:
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I know that there's already a thread dealing with that very thought. I'll see if I can find it.

EDIT:

Here's the thread I was thinking of:

http://raven.theraider.net/showthread.php?t=20386
 
Rocket Surgeon

Rocket Surgeon

Guest
Col. Detritch said:
This would be a life changing event in the religious choices of anyone, and I always wondered how this would have affected him spiritually. :hat:
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I would guess that he would consider it a mystery but a devine mystery. I doubt it would have changed much, other than inspiring him to be a more devout Muslim.

Muslims believe Jesus was a prophet, and prophets performed miracles with the "permision" of God.

Like the Ark a prophet doesn't control God or his power, he/she summons God's power. God does as he will.

So, I would say it would inspire him to be more spiritual.

Though Thomas was witness to miracles and still doubted...

...don't listen to that atheist Montana!

Montana Smith said:
Here's the thread I was thinking of:

http://raven.theraider.net/showthread.php?t=20386
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...you dropped that veneer of amity on that thread!

We seemed to have reversed out good cop/bad/cop -ness.
That's why I would make a good Moderator!
 
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Rocket Surgeon

Rocket Surgeon

Guest
Montana Smith said:
It happens on occasion. ;)
These threads ought to be merged.
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In tribute to the "merge" comment, and my misspellings:

A "devine" mystery
Devine-150x150.jpg


Like your own Dame Edna...:eek:​
Man I wish I had more time to edit my posts!
 
WilliamBoyd8

WilliamBoyd8

Active member
After finding a Jewish relic and a Christian relic, maybe it is time for
Indiana to hunt for an Islamic relic.

:)
 
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Montana Smith

Active member
WilliamBoyd8 said:
After finding a Jewish relic and a Christian relic, maybe it is time for
Indiana to hunt for an Islamic relic.

:)
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Indiana Jones and the Hunt for Osama Bin Laden.

Will Indy succeed where so many have failed?​
 
M

Montana Smith

Active member
That was an uncanny likeness...



Rocket Surgeon said:
In tribute to the "merge" comment, and my misspellings:

A "devine" mystery
Devine-150x150.jpg


Like your own Dame Edna...:eek:​
Click to expand...

Not such a good likeness.


Divine ate dog sh!t once. Don't think Dame Edna would stoop that low!
 
Col. Detritch

Col. Detritch

New member
Originally Posted by Rocket Surgeon
I would guess that he would consider it a mystery but a devine mystery. I doubt it would have changed much, other than inspiring him to be a more devout Muslim.

Muslims believe Jesus was a prophet, and prophets performed miracles with the "permision" of God.

Like the Ark a prophet doesn't control God or his power, he/she summons God's power. God does as he will.

So, I would say it would inspire him to be more spiritual.

Though Thomas was witness to miracles and still doubted...
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That’s an interesting thought. I was aware that Muslims accept Jesus as a prophet (as they do all the Jewish prophets and even Mary) but they do not believe he was the son of God, and that his word was God’s final covenant and revelation which, in very basic terms, the entire concept of Christianity. Muslims believe that Mohammad was a simple, honest man who was spoken to by the angle Gabriel and given the final revelation of God which he wrote in the Qur’an. They also don’t believe Jesus was crucified, meaning the Grail could not possibly exist anyway (as per the Grail Legend). If I where Sallah, I would find it rather confronting to witness the miracle of the Cup of Christ, a relic that shouldn’t even exist according to the Qur’an (God's word in his faith). IMO :hat:
 
M

Montana Smith

Active member
Col. Detritch said:
That?s an interesting thought. I was aware that Muslims accept Jesus as a prophet (as they do all the Jewish prophets and even Mary) but they do not believe he was the son of God, and that his word was God?s final covenant and revelation which, in very basic terms, the entire concept of Christianity. Muslims believe that Mohammad was a simple, honest man who was spoken to by the angle Gabriel and given the final revelation of God which he wrote in the Qur?an. They also don?t believe Jesus was crucified, meaning the Grail could not possibly exist anyway (as per the Grail Legend). If I where Sallah, I would find it rather confronting to witness the miracle of the Cup of Christ, a relic that shouldn?t even exist according to the Qur?an (God's word in his faith). IMO :hat:
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Like a lot of things in Indy movies, things are not as they seem.

I see the normal everyday world of Indy-verse, with people going about their business oblivious to anything strange in their midst.

Yet beneath that layer of normality is another often hidden world. Indy is an old hand at dealing with both worlds, coming to terms with things he cannot explain. I'm not sure how much Sallah has witnessed of the strange prior ro ROTLA, but at least from 1936 onwards he's forced to accept that there are conflicts to confuse the ordered mind.

With Indy we see him keep up a pretense of normality, the things he keeps secret from his colleagues and acquaintances. (Indy as Marlow protecting the innocent from mind-shattering revelations). I expect Sallah will have adopted a similar outward defence mechanism, though inside he may be as conflicted as I expect Indy is (having witnessed the power of multiple 'gods' etc).

The Mohammed-as-prophet thing is a curious historical event, considering he went to Egypt and learnt of Coptic Christianity, then returned to proclaim himself as the true prophet.

The source for some real world conflict - which in Indy-verse is as yet unresolved: we've been shown the power of an old Hebrew god (who may also be Allah) and also the power of his supposed son. Though both events may be attributed to other sources. Indy's world remains open to the objective eye.
 
Rocket Surgeon

Rocket Surgeon

Guest
Col. Detritch said:
They also don’t believe Jesus was crucified, meaning the Grail could not possibly exist anyway (as per the Grail Legend). If I where Sallah, I would find it rather confronting to witness the miracle of the Cup of Christ, a relic that shouldn’t even exist according to the Qur’an (God's word in his faith). IMO :hat:
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I don't think you can lump all believers together. There are, of course radicals liberals and radical conservatives, (among other strata). Fayah wasn't wearing a burka (niqab) as I remember. The argument I continue to make distinguishes holy texts as articles of faith, spirituality and not history or science. The crucifixion was a tradition before the Koran was written, by what? 700 years? It's likely Sallah had heard/read it, considering his occupation as an excavator and friendship with western archaeologist(s). If I were Sallah I might be prone to view the "miracle" as the will of Allah.
 
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Montana Smith

Active member
Rocket Surgeon said:
I don't think you can lump all believers together. There are, of course radicals liberals and radical conservatives, (among other strata). Fayah wasn't wearing a burka (niqab) as I remember. The argument I continue to make distinguishes holy texts as articles of faith, spirituality and not history or science. The crucifixion was a tradition before the Koran was written, by what? 700 years? It's likely Sallah had heard/read it, considering his occupation as an excavator and friendship with western archaeologist(s). If I were Sallah I might be prone to view the "miracle" as the will of Allah.
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I agree with this. In our world most of us are limited to dealing with ideology in religious affairs, rather than actuality. In Indy's world there is an actuality to confirm certain ideas.

The opening of the Ark could confirm Indy's belief in the Old Testament God, just as much as him telling the story (to Sallah) would confirm to Sallah the existence of Allah. After that any 'miracle' is possible, and may equally be interpreted in a variety of ways, to recreate an ordered mind in the face of overwhelming chaos.
 
C

Chewbacca Jones

New member
I don't know if the Ark of the Covenant has any connections to the Muslim teachings, and to what degree it might appear if it is mentioned. Anyone know? Because that would be requisite in determining how Sallah might react to the Grail. After all, we've already seen that he accepts the Ark as a powerful, otherworldly thing from his comments in Raiders, before the Ark is even found.
 
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Montana Smith

Active member
Chewbacca Jones said:
I don't know if the Ark of the Covenant has any connections to the Muslim teachings, and to what degree it might appear if it is mentioned. Anyone know? Because that would be requisite in determining how Sallah might react to the Grail. After all, we've already seen that he accepts the Ark as a powerful, otherworldly thing from his comments in Raiders, before the Ark is even found.
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It seems from a very brief search, that it's a very important part of the Koran, since the Koran is very much another version of the Old Testament:

—In Mohammedan Literature:

In the Koran the Ark of the Covenant and Moses' ark of bulrushes are both indicated by the one word "tabut," which term certainly comes from the Hebrew "tebah," through the Jewish-Aramaic "tebuta." The reference in the Koran to the Ark of the Covenant occurs in the middle of the story of the choice of Saul to be king. There the people demand a sign that God has chosen him, and the narrative continues (ii. 249): "and their prophet said unto them, 'Lo, the sign of his kingship will be that the ark [tabut] will come unto you with a "Sakinah" in it from your Lord, and with a remnant of that which the family of Moses and the family of Aaron left—angels bearing it. Lo, in that is verily a sign for you if ye are believers!'" Baidawi (ad loc.) explains "tabut" as derived from the root tub (return), and as thus meaning a chest to which a thing taken from it was sure to return. It was the chest in which the Law (Taurat) was kept, and was about three cubits by two, and made of gilded box-wood. "Sakinah," he says, means "rest," "tranquillity"; and it came to the Israelites in the coming of the Ark to them, or it was the Taurat itself, brought in the Ark and calming them by its presence (see Shekinah). Moses was wont to make it go on before in battle, and it would steady the Israelites and prevent them fleeing.
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http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=1777&letter=A

In the Quran
In chapter 2 (Verse 248), the Children of Israel, at the time of Samuel and Saul, were given back the 'Tabut E Sakina' (the casket of Shekhinah) which contained remnants of the household of Musa and Harun (Moses and Aaron) carried by angels which confirmed peace and reassurance for them from their Lord. It is mentioned in the middle of the narrative of the choice of Saul to be king. The Qur'an states:

And (further) their Prophet said to them: "A Sign of his authority is that there shall come to you the Ark of the covenant, with (an assurance) therein of security (Sakina) from your Lord, and the relics left by the family of Moses and the family of Aaron, carried by angels. In this is a symbol for you if ye indeed have faith. (Qur'an 2:248)
The Islamic scholar Al Baidawi mentioned that the Sakina could be Tawrat, Books of Moses.[3] According to Al-Jalalan, the relics in the Ark were the fragments of the two tablets, rods, robes, shoes, mitres of Moses and the vase of Manna.[3] Al-Tha'alibi, in Qisas Al-Anbiya (The Stories of the Prophets), has given an earlier and later history of the Ark.

According to most Muslim scholars, the Ark of the Covenant has a religious basis in Islam, and Islam gives it special significance. Shia sect of Muslims believe that it will be found by Mahdi near the end of times from Lake Tiberias.[4]
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ark_of_the_Covenant


A Personal Note to Muslim Brothers from Barry Roffman, an Orthodox Jew

Muslims and Jews Both See Finding the Ark as a Key to Peace

The Koran (2:428) states the following: "Their prophet said to them, “The sign of his kingship is that the Ark will come to you, containing serenity from your Lord and certain relics left by the families of Musa (Moses) and Harun (Aaron). It will be borne by angels. There is a sign for you in that if you believe."

Your Holy Koran Declares Religious Differences to be a Test - Believe and Pass It.
In the Koran (5:51) we read, "To each among you God prescribed a Law and an Open Way. If God had so willed He would have made you a single People, but (His plan is) to test you in what He has given you: So strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to (know) God; (In the end when you return to Him as we all must) It is He will that will show you the truth of all things that you now.dispute."

Who Takes Posession if Found in Egypt?

Egypt guards its antiquties with great zeal. Legally, if the Ark is found in Egypt, it is Egyptian Government property unless they choose to relinquish or relocate it. Moving it to Mecca would be extremely divisive. Consideration should be given to Biblical stories (as in 1 Samuel 5:6) about what happened when the Ark was moved away from its intended home. I would recommend that it be transferred in accordance with Jewish Law to the Dome of the Rock Mosque in Jerusalem. Leave it to G-d (Allah) to then determine how that structure is to be used."

The Emphasis Must be On Shared Values

Muslims expect the Ark to be found and that this will herald a new age of Muslim values. These values are in fact very similar to Orthodox Jewish values and some Christian values. Finding the Ark through this Code (or any that might exist in the Koran) would lead to a new religious understanding and peace between Judaism, Christianity and Islam. If I am right about where Allah has lead the prophet Jeremiah to place the Ark, it is in Egypt - in the area where Moses with help from Allah split the Sea. That story is in your Holy Koran. You too honor Moses as one of your prophets. Allah allows mankind the opportunity to repent for past misdeeds. Help me to recover the Ark from the site of Pharaoh’s rebellion against Allah, and you will help lead the world to the truest understanding of Allah and His plan to finally reconcile the children of Abraham - the common father of all Muslims and Jews. Salaam alaykum to you all; and through you to all the world!
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http://arkhunt.mysite.com/2_column_page_2.html
 
C

Chewbacca Jones

New member
Alright. So we can say, making the creative/dramatic conceits that Raiders does, that Sallah would need no change in Muslim beliefs to feel as he does about the Ark. Thus, his reaction to the Ark does not inform us as to his reactions to the Grail.

I do think you are right, MS, that in the Indyverse (until Indy 4), the sources of the powers he witnesses are not spelled out in an immutable way. But Sallah, or any other observer, will bring his own thinking to what he sees. In this, I think RS makes a good point about not lumping people together without more information, as well as the idea that, as a Muslim, he would regard Jesus as a prophet and all that goes with that.

My conclusion would be that Sallah would not have his faith shaken by witnessing a miracle attributed to a Christian artifact. Within the Indyverse, Sallah would be the sort to think that, since Henry being heal was a good thing, there must be a benevolent force behind it. If that would mean Allah, then so be it.

Thank you for that quick education, Montana.
 
Col. Detritch

Col. Detritch

New member
If this were his reaction to the Grail, does that mean Sallah would have blind faith? Where he will take isolated pieces of information from situations to create evidence for his own faith so he may continue to believe: ?the Grail?s power means Allah exists?, while ignoring other important facts: ?it?s supposed to be the cup of Jesus Christ- the son of God (not a prophet), and shouldn?t even exist according to Qur?an teachings?. I say this reminding you there a difference between faith and belief.

Faith= Trust from the heart in absolute truths (like the existence all-powerful being) usually without any physical evidence. Truth from faith cannot be proven.
Belief= Trust from the mind in relative truths. They are theories and concepts that we interpret from reality without evidence but they can be discussed a proven either way.

I always thought Sallah, given his career path, to hold belief over faith and when confronted with proven truth over theorised absolute truth he would go for the proof. This doesn?t mean he doesn?t have faith it just means I don?t think he would change evidence (no matter how inconclusive) to reach conclusions that fit his faith. IMO :hat:
 
M

Montana Smith

Active member
Col. Detritch said:
If this were his reaction to the Grail, does that mean Sallah would have blind faith? Where he will take isolated pieces of information from situations to create evidence for his own faith so he may continue to believe: ?the Grail?s power means Allah exists?, while ignoring other important facts: ?it?s supposed to be the cup of Jesus Christ- the son of God (not a prophet), and shouldn?t even exist according to Qur?an teachings?. I say this reminding you there a difference between faith and belief.

Faith= Trust from the heart in absolute truths (like the existence all-powerful being) usually without any physical evidence. Truth from faith cannot be proven.
Belief= Trust from the mind in relative truths. They are theories and concepts that we interpret from reality without evidence but they can be discussed a proven either way.

I always thought Sallah, given his career path, to hold belief over faith and when confronted with proven truth over theorised absolute truth he would go for the proof. This doesn?t mean he doesn?t have faith it just means I don?t think he would change evidence (no matter how inconclusive) to reach conclusions that fit his faith. IMO :hat:
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Who knows what an individual will do to keep their sanity, or what twists and turns they'll make to protect the sanity of others?

These are questions we can only play with, for I doubt Lucas and Spielberg ever lost much sleep over these issues.

As with much of the content of the four movies, there is an open space for each viewer's interpretation. And that's one of the great things about the series. We see strange events, and we only have the interpretations of the characters to guide us. For all we know the characters are guessing based on their own preconceptions, and the truth lies elsewhere, perhaps in our own imaginations.
 
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