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Old 12-31-2015, 09:52 AM   #826
Pale Horse
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Dollars to Donuts JJ Abrams was the one to write that scene.

Had Kasdan wrote it, there would have been no foreshadowing that Kylo and Ben were related.

Lawrence would have let Kylo be Kylo for a while and then Han would have walked out onto that catwalk and said:


HAN SOLO
Kylo Ren!

KYLO REN
Han Solo. I've been waiting for this day for a long time.

Han Solo
Take off that mask, Kylo. You don't need it.

KYLO REN
What do you think you'll see if I do?

Han Solo
The face of my son, Ben. Ben Solo

KYLO REN
Your son is gone. He was weak and foolish like his father, so I destroyed him.



...Benefits, of a Classical Education. ...
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Old 12-31-2015, 02:12 PM   #827
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnythingGoes
I think the biggest problem with the scene isn't the execution, but the fact that a lot of people knew Han was going to die, and therefore couldn't quite be surprised, especially given how it sort of, not really, parallels the Obi-Wan/Vader fight from New Hope.

I don't think it matters that we knew it would happen. The second Han called out his son's name and walked onto the catwalk, everyone knew this was the end for him. But when you have become so emotionally invested in a character and have watched him live to fight another day over and over again 1000 or more times, nothing will prepare you to actually watch it happen. This will go down as one of the most memorable scenes in Star Wars history. Anyone that did not shed a tear for dear old Han is probably not really a Star Wars fan.
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Old 12-31-2015, 02:28 PM   #828
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How can you shed a tear for someone who wants to die?
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Old 12-31-2015, 03:05 PM   #829
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One sketch, and 2 hours worth of panels for your listening pleasure.

Colbert in 2012:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BrRGTEwNS2M#t=2m20s
YouTube Space LA:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLl1N0FyqxE
DGA:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VlrfnT5KNGc
Oscar screening Q&A:
http://www.slashfilm.com/48-minute-s...rce-awakens-qa
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Old 12-31-2015, 04:32 PM   #830
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pale Horse
How can you shed a tear for someone who wants to die?

Harrison Ford wanted Han Solo to die. Han Solo did not want Han Solo to die. If you immerse yourself in the story, you watch the character, not the actor. That's what watching movies is all about.
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Old 12-31-2015, 04:53 PM   #831
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duaner
Han Solo did not want Han Solo to die.

As a man who shoots first, why'd he go unarmed?

Because he wanted to die.



^ There was NONE of this character in TFA...
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Old 12-31-2015, 05:10 PM   #832
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pale Horse

^ There was NONE of this character in TFA...

I'm sorry you did not enjoy the movie.
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Old 12-31-2015, 08:12 PM   #833
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pale Horse
As a man who shoots first, why'd he go unarmed?

Because he wanted to die.



^ There was NONE of this character in TFA...

Could be just me, but I was reading it as a gamble...

The character of Han Solo is that of a gambler, not even a calculated gambler -- he's reckless.
He's barely able to pull off so many of the things he does in Star Wars and often failing. Han Solo gambled 3 times in The Force Awakens, each gamble topping the previous one:

Light Speed out of the freighter (to which he is even called out on if it's possible)

Light speed through the Starkiller base shields (again another character mentions the INSANE risk)

And finally confronting his son, I saw it as calling his son's bluff...
even though we the audience knew, Han had gambled so much in the film and won that (on a gambler's high) he decided to take the ultimate gamble with his son, and lost.

But I can understand the arguments that people have made that it was out of character --
I've tried to look at it from every angle; like a wise old wizard once said "from a certain point of view"

(also Happy New Year folks)
Cheers Paley ole' boy.
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Old 01-01-2016, 11:46 AM   #834
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Gonzo
Could be just me, but I was reading it as a gamble...

The character of Han Solo is that of a gambler, not even a calculated gambler -- he's reckless.
He's barely able to pull off so many of the things he does in Star Wars and often failing.

I'm with you on that one. There was a sort of understanding in that scene, for me at least, mixed in with the trepidation that this could only end one way, and that Han was ready to accept both outcomes.

Matter of fact, I enjoyed older Han Solo far more than I enjoyed older Indy. I'm not sure whether it's directly applicable to the writing, the circumstances, or Ford's enthusiasm-level, but it was easier to buy this Solo as an older version of the character from the originals. He's still brash and witty, still willing to take risks and protect those few he feels invested in.

But he's also changed as a person. He has an air of wisdom about him, and he's more open to excepting things he previously never would have considered. And his sacrifice at the end is the ultimate sign of his overall character development.

Not only is there more to him than money (fake posh accent and all), but he's willing to lay down his life if it means his son gets some chance at peace, even if he barely knows this kid as a person.

Older Indy, on the other hand, felt to me too old. The film tried a bit too hard to play him up as a gruff academic, at the same time sacrificing the charm and derring-do that used to separate Indy from Henry Sr. and the various other academics he met in the films and EU.

There wasn't a line between 'professor' Indy and 'adventurer' Indy, they just surfaced whenever the plot felt they needed to. With Solo, however, the character at least is consistent and believable. For me, at least.

And, on that note, Happy 2016, Raveners!
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Old 01-01-2016, 12:42 PM   #835
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duaner
I don't think it matters that we knew it would happen. The second Han called out his son's name and walked onto the catwalk, everyone knew this was the end for him. But when you have become so emotionally invested in a character and have watched him live to fight another day over and over again 1000 or more times, nothing will prepare you to actually watch it happen. This will go down as one of the most memorable scenes in Star Wars history. Anyone that did not shed a tear for dear old Han is probably not really a Star Wars fan.

Signed.
I knew Ford wanted Han to die in Jedi, but much time has passed since, he was at another point in life and so on, and I haven't read any spoilers so I didn't really know if Han was gonna die in this one or not... until the very moment he entered the bridge.
From then on you just know it's gonna happen, but for me that didn't diminish the tension of that scene one second.
When it happened, I didn't cry, but I was really pissed and sad, even days later. The second time I saw it, it had almost the same effect on me, even though I had accepted Han's death at that point and knew exactly what was gonna happen.
I hate the moment Han gets killed by his own freaking son (of a *****), but it's very well done, and I think Ford nailed it.
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Old 01-02-2016, 10:02 PM   #836
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Han is not a gambler -- he's a cowboy ('Han Solo Cowboy' generates 1,040,000 Google hits versus 197,000 for 'Han Solo Gambler'). Look no further than the vest and the way he holsters his blaster.

Episodes IV and V Han: (i) shoots first, (ii) doesn't go looking for fight, (iii) pays for his messes, (v) is incredibly loyal and bails out/saves his buddies, (vi) is resourceful, and (vii) stoically accepts his fate (he had know way of knowing he would survive the freezing process). That's a cowboy.

Han's TFA backstories utterly destroys all that which is Han Solo. TFA Han: (i) has ditched his wife, family and friends, (ii) is unreliable in business and (iii) is more worried about retrieving the Falcon instead of taking down the little sociopath he helped bring into the galaxy. That's a scumbag.

The new TFA Han backstory is utter and complete cr*p.

If I were writing Han's final scene, it would start with him saying "Chewie, give me your crossbow. . ."

And from there -- in keeping with the Cowboy mythos -- a hard and stern Solo would proceed and take care of business, perishing nobly in the process. The end.

Taking a step back, the whole subplot (from Leia saying "bring him home" to Han's demise) is absurd. I'm surprised that there hasn't been more of a rejection by fans.

If you cared about the original Han Solo Character, you have to reject TFA.


Old rallying cry:
Han shot first.

New rallying cry
Han deserved better than patricide.
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Old 01-03-2016, 02:47 AM   #837
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Brody
Han is not a gambler -- he's a cowboy ('Han Solo Cowboy' generates 1,040,000 Google hits versus 197,000 for 'Han Solo Gambler'). Look no further than the vest and the way he holsters his blaster.

Episodes IV and V Han: (i) shoots first, (ii) doesn't go looking for fight, (iii) pays for his messes, (v) is incredibly loyal and bails out/saves his buddies, (vi) is resourceful, and (vii) stoically accepts his fate (he had know way of knowing he would survive the freezing process). That's a cowboy.

Han's TFA backstories utterly destroys all that which is Han Solo. TFA Han: (i) has ditched his wife, family and friends, (ii) is unreliable in business and (iii) is more worried about retrieving the Falcon instead of taking down the little sociopath he helped bring into the galaxy. That's a scumbag.

The new TFA Han backstory is utter and complete cr*p.

If I were writing Han's final scene, it would start with him saying "Chewie, give me your crossbow. . ."

And from there -- in keeping with the Cowboy mythos -- a hard and stern Solo would proceed and take care of business, perishing nobly in the process. The end.

Taking a step back, the whole subplot (from Leia saying "bring him home" to Han's demise) is absurd. I'm surprised that there hasn't been more of a rejection by fans.

If you cared about the original Han Solo Character, you have to reject TFA.


Old rallying cry:
Han shot first.

New rallying cry
Han deserved better than patricide.


DAMN.

Joe Brody drops mic and leaves

To all the people supporting TFA and having a Ky-Lo Ren emo breakdown about Han's all to obvious fate-

- YOU GOT KNOCKED THE F@&$ OUT!


Seriously if you wrote you were shaken for days by this ending. Please stop everything and think about what you just said. This is a movie. I think you need to work in a soup kitchen, donate time to a real cause. He'll go fight IsIs but grow up!
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Old 01-03-2016, 02:52 AM   #838
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duaner
I cannot believe how many people have said something similar and that is completely wrong! I cannot recall a scene in recent film history that affected me so deeply. All day long the day after the premiere, I was replaying the scene in my head and fighting back tears. I would not consider that underwhelming!


I hope that real life things like the Paris Attacks, 9/11, the recent SoCal shootings "affected" you more. This is a movie. No body really died. Harrison was paid 30 to 70 MILL to get poked by emo Ren.
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Old 01-03-2016, 01:58 PM   #839
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roundshort
I hope that real life things like the Paris Attacks, 9/11, the recent SoCal shootings "affected" you more. This is a movie. No body really died. Harrison was paid 30 to 70 MILL to get poked by emo Ren.

If you looked at an earlier comment I made, I said I watch movies for the characters. I was watching Han Solo, not Harrison Ford. I don't care one bit in the least about the money Harrison Ford made for it - completely irrelevant. Was I affected by those real-life events you mentioned? Absolutely! The world is a sick place. That's part of why I enjoy watching Star Wars, Indiana Jones, etc. They provide a bit of an escape from our world. I would hope you feel that way too. After all, you are a member of a forum dedicated to Indiana Jones! As a result of my viewing movies for the escapism, I do become emotionally invested and yes it did greatly sadden me to lose a character who I have loved my entire life. Does that mean I find it more important than those real-life events? No! I never said anything remotely close to that.
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Old 01-03-2016, 02:44 PM   #840
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Brody
(iii) is more worried about retrieving the Falcon instead of taking down the little sociopath he helped bring into the galaxy. That's a scumbag.

New rallying cry
Han deserved better than patricide.

As an involved father, the absentee dad trope is getting old, isn't it.
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Old 01-03-2016, 09:32 PM   #841
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Maybe I misread something but the order of events I picked up from the movie:

1. Han and Leia have a child (Ben)
2. They raise Ben up to the point where he shows Force-sensitivity and can enter Jedi training with Luke
3. At some point Ben goes Dark, kills the other trainees, and becomes Kylo Ren
4. Leia and Han both grieve over what happens and Han, handling it poorly, returns to smuggling
5. Time passes up to the movie, where Han and Leia are reunited

At no point did I get the "absentee dad" trope being played. It appeared (to me) that Han and Leia were both part of his life up to the point where he went into Jedi training and were still involved as much as could be expected in that kind of situation.

I also don't get how Han is any more unreliable in business in TFA than in the original trilogy. Are we forgetting why Han shot first? Because he dumped Jabba's cargo and Jabba wanted him dead for it. We choose to believe that Han was right, even he gets borded some times and has no choice, but is it really that surprising that a guy who was running from bounty hunters and charging Luke and Obi-Wan an arm and a leg to get to Alderaan would be stretching his limits with his current source of funds?

Joe Brody does have some good points, but I simply think we don't know enough yet as to what happened in the intervening 30 years.
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Old 01-04-2016, 02:44 AM   #842
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duaner
If you looked at an earlier comment I made, I said I watch movies for the characters. I was watching Han Solo, not Harrison Ford. I don't care one bit in the least about the money Harrison Ford made for it - completely irrelevant. Was I affected by those real-life events you mentioned? Absolutely! The world is a sick place. That's part of why I enjoy watching Star Wars, Indiana Jones, etc. They provide a bit of an escape from our world. I would hope you feel that way too. After all, you are a member of a forum dedicated to Indiana Jones! As a result of my viewing movies for the escapism, I do become emotionally invested and yes it did greatly sadden me to lose a character who I have loved my entire life. Does that mean I find it more important than those real-life events? No! I never said anything remotely close to that.

If this movie drove you to tears and made you think about that scene for days and it affected that much - then I hope the real world where people died almost Killed you is my point. It is a movie. I was four when I saw Star Wars on opening dAy. I saw every other movie on opening day. Collecting Star Wars toys shaped my childhood. I have found memories of that. That is why I am here. When a fictional character is killed in a movie, no matter how beloved, I said, meh. Bummer Han is dead, now Poe is the sarcastic one.... People need to get a grip this is a movie. Harrison Ford, George Lucas or Disney does not care about you. Just your $$$$
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Old 01-04-2016, 02:49 AM   #843
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonMa
Maybe I misread something but the order of events I picked up from the movie:

1. Han and Leia have a child (Ben)
2. They raise Ben up to the point where he shows Force-sensitivity and can enter Jedi training with Luke
3. At some point Ben goes Dark, kills the other trainees, and becomes Kylo Ren
4. Leia and Han both grieve over what happens and Han, handling it poorly, returns to smuggling
5. Time passes up to the movie, where Han and Leia are reunited


I also don't get how Han is any more unreliable in business in TFA than in the original trilogy. Are we forgetting why Han shot first? Because he dumped Jabba's cargo and Jabba wanted him dead for it. We choose to believe that Han was right, even he gets borded some times and has no choice, but is it really that surprising that a guy who was running from bounty hunters and charging Luke and Obi-Wan an arm and a leg to get to Alderaan would be stretching his limits with his current source of funds?
.

You are totally missing the point. Ham is so loyal and wants to set thing right that is why he needs the cash to pay Jabba, even after he whacks Greedo. Then in Empire he is leaving, to pay Jabba because that is who he is. He is honorable. He pays his depts. he probably could have had the rebals go all ISIS on Jabba if he wanted to. After helping the nuke the Death Star I am sure they would have. But he wanted to make thins right.

The Force wakes up morphes Hans character into something he was
Not in the first three movies. That is why no one cared he was iced
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Old 01-04-2016, 09:59 AM   #844
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I Love This Post!!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by roundshort
You are totally missing the point. Ham is so loyal and wants to set thing right that is why he needs the cash to pay Jabba, even after he whacks Greedo. Then in Empire he is leaving, to pay Jabba because that is who he is. He is honorable. He pays his depts. he probably could have had the rebals go all ISIS on Jabba if he wanted to. After helping the nuke the Death Star I am sure they would have. But he wanted to make thins right.

The Force wakes up morphes Hans character into something he was
Not in the first three movies. That is why no one cared he was iced

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Old 01-04-2016, 11:07 AM   #845
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roundshort
You are totally missing the point. Ham is so loyal and wants to set thing right that is why he needs the cash to pay Jabba, even after he whacks Greedo. Then in Empire he is leaving, to pay Jabba because that is who he is. He is honorable. He pays his depts. he probably could have had the rebals go all ISIS on Jabba if he wanted to. After helping the nuke the Death Star I am sure they would have. But he wanted to make thins right.
What evidence in TFA is there that he didn't want to make his debts right? How are the two gangs catching up to him before he makes his delivery and gets paid any different than Greedo catching up to him before he gets paid by Luke and Obi-Wan?
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Old 01-04-2016, 03:18 PM   #846
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http://www.boxofficemojo.com/alltime/adjusted.htm

Star Wars 7 box office will soon pass Raiders on the inflation adjusted domestic chart. (It's not population adjusted to consider 100 million additional potential moviegoers.)
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Old 01-04-2016, 03:35 PM   #847
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roundshort
I hope that real life things like the Paris Attacks, 9/11, the recent SoCal shootings "affected" you more. This is a movie. No body really died. Harrison was paid 30 to 70 MILL to get poked by emo Ren.

To quote Han Solo, "Well, I'm glad you're here to tell us these things!"

Sheesh, what an unbelievably douche-y series of comments.

If we're not allowed to get emotionally invested in fiction or drama, what the **** is the point of engaging with it? The point of theater/drama/art is to evoke emotions and to tap into something.

I'm sorry if that doesn't meet your approved standard. Didn't realize we had to check our emotions against your personal barometer.

Amazingly enough, I'm capable of being sick to my stomach and outraged and heartbroken over things like the Paris attacks and, guess what, I still cried a helluva lot more when my dog passed away. One dog versus hundreds of people.

Guess I'm a horrible person. Or maybe I'm just human.

I also was emotionally invested in the death of Han. Even though Harrison Ford is sleeping on a gigantic pile of money (and weed.)

Gimme a break...
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Old 01-04-2016, 04:06 PM   #848
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lance Quazar
Even though Harrison Ford is sleeping on a gigantic pile of money (and weed.)

Vodka. He drinks Vodka.
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Old 01-04-2016, 05:09 PM   #849
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roundshort
Han is so loyal and wants to set thing right that is why he needs the cash to pay Jabba, even after he whacks Greedo. Then in Empire he is leaving, to pay Jabba because that is who he is. He is honorable. He pays his depts.

You must have watched a different original trilogy than I did, because those movies are pretty clear in the fact that Han is leaving to pay Jabba because he wants Jabba to stop hiring people to kill him. Not exactly selfless honor.
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Old 01-04-2016, 05:11 PM   #850
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Originally Posted by Lambonius
You must have watched a different original trilogy than I did...

In shorty's defense, there were 3 versions of the "original"....Thanks George.
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