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Old 08-20-2007, 12:32 PM   #1
Arkimedes
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Chariots of the Gods?

Hi everyone. I am new here but have long been a fan of Indiana Jones and very excited about the new film. I've heard so many rumors and spoilers on Indy 4, that I thought I would try to draw my conclusion on some of them. We all know that it takes place in the 50s, working title is "City of Gods", may involve crystal skulls, and takes cues from "Chariots of the Gods" on ancient astronaut (alien) theories. The most recent rumor I heard is that the Ark may be in the new movie. I thought for a minute and wondered if the Ark is in the new movie how would it tie into some of the already known rumors and spoilers... Well here is a little excerpt I found while searching the internet...

"One of the strongest proponent of ancient astronaut theory is Erich von Daniken, author of several popular books on the subject. His best-selling Chariots of the Gods, published in 1968, argued that spacecraft landed long before modern humanity peopled the Earth. The ancient visitors carried out breeding experiments and produced a creature intelligent enough to have the rules of society imparted to it. These new beings invented agriculture and became the first artists, then created their own warlike civilizations. Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed by an atomic bomb. The Ark of the Covenant was allegedly an electrified transmitter that allowed Moses to communicate with the astronauts. Von Daniken claims that ancient astronauts, complete with space helmets, were carved on stela at the Mayan city of Copan."

...I found that very interesting and it certainly ties into some of the already known rumors. That's just my take on the possible rumors of Indy 4. What do you guys think?
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Old 08-20-2007, 12:39 PM   #2
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I think all rumors so far have been strategically leaked to throw us off the true plot.
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Old 08-23-2007, 06:13 AM   #3
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I'm 80% now convinced that the McGuffin is the FOY. Corny I know but that what I recon we're on to here.
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Old 08-23-2007, 07:42 AM   #4
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Erich von Däniken is a Swiss author who mostly writes about ancient extraterrestrial visitors on earth. He's considered to be a pseudo-scientist and is not taken seriously in the German language area... Funny enough he already complained in an interview that Spielberg "stole" his ideas (sorry folks, it's in german):

http://www.inside-digital.de/news/6522.html

Personally, I don't think that Spielberg/Lucas would ever come up with stuff like that.
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Old 08-23-2007, 11:03 AM   #5
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"Erich von Däniken is a..."
... moron.
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Old 08-23-2007, 11:47 AM   #6
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I still don't think that Spielberg would alienate(no pun intended) the Jewish people and his family heritage, by making a movie that links the Ark to E.T.! He's done so much over the years with his films that have secured this relationship ( for ex. The Shoah Foundation), that to turn around and take an important religious artifact of the Jewish faith and link it to ancient astronaut aliens instead of the Hebrew God, would to me cause quite a stir. The fact they have stated that they want Indy 4 to be "for the fans" and recapture the magic of the original, makes me think it would be highly unlikely that they would turn around and make IJ4 controversial and risk losing tons of money from disgruntled fans. Despite the vastly different spiritual beliefs of filmgoers today, the fact that Spielberg is Jewish would make me think he wouldn't take that chance of offending his people and their collective heritage and beliefs. Yes, he went out on a limb with Munich but that had political themes not strictly related to religious historical artifacts.
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Old 08-23-2007, 01:51 PM   #7
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The theory proposed in "Chariots of the Gods" is indeed interesting, but...
Never forget that in "Raiders" the Ark is depicted as a strongly spiritual artifact. When Belloq opens it after the ritual at the end of the movie, it is clearly shown that things which seem to be ghosts/damned souls appear from its dephts to punish the Nazis.

So how can you explain the ghosts if you assume that the Ark is a technological alien device?

I personally think that even if this new movie will be centered around the "Chariot of the Gods" idea, the alien artifact won't be the Ark of the Covenant.
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Old 08-23-2007, 01:53 PM   #8
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"The theory proposed in "Chariots of the Gods" is..."
... an insult to rational thinking and scientific archaeology.

It MIGHT work as FICTION, but even then it's pretty lousy fiction.

"how can you explain the ghosts if you assume that the Ark is a technological alien device"
Any sufficiently advanced technology appears to be "Magic" to those who don't know better.
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Old 08-23-2007, 02:22 PM   #9
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You're right ClintonHammond. "Any sufficiently advanced technology appears to be Magic" if you are not capable of understand it. But... if you interpret the powers of the Ark as due to alien technology (I don't... and, having read what you've just post, I think you don't too), why are the "ghosts" that appear so human like? Why are they so similar to the concept of "spirits" we all have?
If they are an expression of the technological power of an extraterrestrial device, this means they were created by an extraterrestrial entity. And if an extraterrestrial entity created them, what was the need of making them so "human" like?
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Old 08-25-2007, 01:24 PM   #10
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I really don't like the idea of aliens being involved with this movie at all. But i really don't, for all apparent reasons, think that it is the plot. It is a ploy, and we will all be surprised, and grateful, that it is.
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Old 08-25-2007, 11:30 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Stranger
You're right ClintonHammond. "Any sufficiently advanced technology appears to be Magic" if you are not capable of understand it. But... if you interpret the powers of the Ark as due to alien technology (I don't... and, having read what you've just post, I think you don't too), why are the "ghosts" that appear so human like? Why are they so similar to the concept of "spirits" we all have?
If they are an expression of the technological power of an extraterrestrial device, this means they were created by an extraterrestrial entity. And if an extraterrestrial entity created them, what was the need of making them so "human" like?

I wish they'd just tell us the basic plot. A one or two sentence explanation of what to expect. I honestly don't think this movie is going to be about Aliens... it is pretty stupid, I don't care, Indy meeting an alien is ridiculous... and I'm pretty sure the Ark isn't in it either but not 100% on that. I seriously don't think we have any real clue what the plot is. They're letting us know what they WANT us to know.
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Old 08-26-2007, 07:32 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by No Ticket
They're letting us know what they WANT us to know.

I think exactly the same. HovitosKing said it first. They want to "throw us off the true plot".

And, sincerely... I don't like the aliens/"Chariots of the Gods" idea too. Maybe it's an interesting theory, an alternative way to explain some of the mysteries in the ancient history, but... I think it's a little too odd to be truly considered.
And it definitely doesn't fit the Indy universe at all, in my opinion. Especially if they want to apply it to one of the ancient artifacts Indy has already found in the prequel trilogy (the Ark, for example).
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Old 08-26-2007, 08:50 AM   #13
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"why are the "ghosts" that appear so human like"
Because that's the way it was written.
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Old 08-26-2007, 04:38 PM   #14
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Well, I'm not sure what will happen with the ark (if anything will happen), but crystal skulls and South American temples temples are things that where spoiled in CHUD in may, alongside with Shias charachter, Marions return and other things that were confirmed one by one... so, I think we are not so "off the plot".

Aliens could by the way be a consistent source for ancient american cultures mithology.
But I don't think we will see Indy flying with Chewbacca in the Millenium Falcon.
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Old 08-26-2007, 09:40 PM   #15
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Maybe it will have "aliens" in it, but Indy will be all like "Aliens, that's just ridiculous." ... everyone will think it's aliens or alien-related when it turns out to be some kind of mystical artifact being the source of the "alien-like" powers or technology or whatever.

Actually, I really hope it has NOTHING to do with ALIENS.
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Old 08-27-2007, 12:44 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ClintonHammond
"why are the "ghosts" that appear so human like"
Because that's the way it was written.

LOL. You're right again.

Apart from that, I hope Spielberg and Lucas won't change their minds about the Ark, because I really believe it wasn't meant to be alien when they first wrote "Raiders".

Quote:
Originally Posted by No Ticket
Actually, I really hope it has NOTHING to do with ALIENS.

I'm with you on that.
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Old 04-21-2008, 02:01 AM   #17
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CHUD was pretty accurate when they were spoiling last year. I picked up the book. Daniken is a bit of a whiner, accusing others of secrecy and laziness and pointing to rocks everywhere saying "that's too heavy for people." But it is a major cultural artifact of the 1970's and explains why a tedious movie like Close Encounters was such a hit. I'll have to rewatch that Phantom Menace featurette for a glimpse of George's bookshelf, even though I'm sure he's read it:
Quote:
the place on which the spaceship stood will be declared holy ground, a place of pilgrimage, where the heroic deeds of the gods will be praised in song. Pyramids and temples will be built on it—in accordance with astronomic laws, of course. The population increases, wars devastate the place of the gods, and then come generations who rediscover and excavate the holy places and try to interpret the signs.
Quote:
At Tiahuanaco there are artificial overgrown hills, the 'roofs' of which are absolutely level over an area of 4,784 square yards. It seems highly probable that buildings are concealed beneath them. So far no trench has been dug through the chain of hills, no spade is at work to solve the mystery.
This passage (along with the warehouse scene) makes me worry they'll retcon Raiders. They already toyed with this theory using Belloq.
Quote:
If we reconstruct [the Ark] today according to the instructions handed down by Moses, a voltage of several hundred volts is produced. The condenser is formed by the gold plates, one of which is positively, the other negatively, charged. If, in addition, one of the two cherubim on the mercy seat acted as a magnet, the loudspeaker—perhaps even a kind of set for communication between Moses and the space-ship—was perfect. The details of the construction of the Ark of the Covenant can be read in the Bible in their entirety. Without actually consulting Exodus, I seem to remember that the Ark was often surrounded by flashing sparks and that Moses made use of this 'transmitter' whenever he needed help and advice.
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Old 04-21-2008, 06:35 PM   #18
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Sigh.
I know it's fiction, but I pray to God that it has nothing to do with Chariots.
That book is the worst example of pseudo-archaeology I have ever read, except possibly that presented by some, but not all, "Ark-eologists."
Chariots is straight up fiction. But the problem is that some people actually believe that Daniken is on to something. Really, that's dangerous.
For example, as Moedred posted:
Quote:
If we reconstruct [the Ark] today according to the instructions handed down by Moses, a voltage of several hundred volts is produced. The condenser is formed by the gold plates, one of which is positively, the other negatively, charged. If, in addition, one of the two cherubim on the mercy seat acted as a magnet, the loudspeaker—perhaps even a kind of set for communication between Moses and the space-ship—was perfect. The details of the construction of the Ark of the Covenant can be read in the Bible in their entirety.
The Ark that he has constructed is completely different from the actual Exodus description. The Exodus description has the Ark as being wood covered in gold leaf. Back in the 60's, a Christian author that opposed the book went to a professor that had a great deal of knowledge of electricity and said that Daniken's "Ark" would never work the way he believes it would, even if constructed to his description.
But, like I said, the Ark described in the Bible is not like that described by Daniken, but that is not shocking considering my favorite line from Chariots:
Quote:
Without actually consulting Exodus, I seem to remember that the Ark was often surrounded by flashing sparks and that Moses made use of this 'transmitter' whenever he needed help and advice.
He admits to not researching it! But, then, one wonders where he got his information about the Cherubim. Surely he could not have known that description without reading.
So, we see that Daniken has read the book, but refuses to acknowledge that his theory does not work and that he misquotes scripture. The Ark is never described as being surrounded by sparks or as a transmitter that Moses used at will.
It was a Holy artifact that was placed in the Tabernacle.
The priest was only allowed to visit it once a year (or something like that, it's been a while since Sunday School, the same place Indy learned about it) and when the priest went to it, he held upmost decorum because the Ark was the holiest object on Earth until Jesus took it's place. Or, at least, that's what us Christians believe.
But, anyway, if there is an Ark, it does not meet Daniken's ignorant description.
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Old 04-21-2008, 07:22 PM   #19
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Then there's the most obvious question: if the aliens wanted Moses to have a radio so he could call for advice and air support, why didn't they just give him one?
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Old 04-21-2008, 08:18 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moedred
Then there's the most obvious question: if the aliens wanted Moses to have a radio so he could call for advice and air support, why didn't they just give him one?
no, no.
that's using common sense.
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Old 04-21-2008, 11:18 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFedoraGuy
he already complained in an interview that Spielberg "stole" his ideas
Exhibit A?
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Old 09-19-2012, 04:10 PM   #22
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I rewatched Raiders on the big screen with Chariots of the Gods in mind, and feel even more certain the ghosts were tacked on in post production. I've mentioned the similarities to Crystal Skull before.

So is Lucas still reading von Däniken? A few months after the release of his latest book, Seth Rogen encountered him talking about 2012, the topic of his 2010 book. Also tectonic plates which might be in it... haven't checked.
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Old 09-19-2012, 05:43 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moedred
I rewatched Raiders on the big screen with Chariots of the Gods in mind, and feel even more certain the ghosts were tacked on in post production.

You mean first conceived of after principle shooting?

First thing that comes to mind is Belloq's: "It's beautiful..."
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Old 09-19-2012, 10:53 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFedoraGuy
Personally, I don't think that Spielberg/Lucas would ever come up with stuff like that.

Quote:
GEORGE LUCAS : The real theory about the Ark is that if you take this Ark and put it in this conformation with these tents, you could talk to God in it. It's like a radio transmitter. That's the real legend. That's what they used to do. The Israelis used to set up these tents and they would talk to God and God would tell them what to do. And then they would march with it in front of their army. The other Armies would be destroyed. Our idea was that there must actually be some kind of super high-powered radio from one of Erick Von Daniken's flying saucers. The fact that it's electrical charges makes it vaguely believable.

Quote:
GEORGE LUCAS : One of the things of his character is that he is very skeptical, very cynical. In the beginning he is reluctant. "The Germans haven't found it, for Christ’s sake. Those guys are running all over the world being crazy. That's a real myth." He sort of doesn't believe it. It's like a wild goose chase. He isn't even sure it exists. The thing of it is that in the end they convince him to do it because they say this Professor Erich Von Daniken, or whatever, this German version of himself is the one who found it.

Quote:
GEORGE LUCAS : In Leviticus it describes it. How they built it and here it came from. He thinks Von Daniken's first book, "Chariots of the Gods" has some stuff in it about the Ark. The theory I'd heard is the one about being able to speak to God when you set up all the silk cubicles and that stuff.

ROTLA Story Conference Transcript, 1978.
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Old 09-21-2012, 09:34 PM   #25
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Thanks Montana, I forgot this thread predated the transcript.

No ghosties here. Knowledge was their treasure...
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