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Old 03-28-2013, 03:40 PM   #51
Randy_Flagg
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There are plenty of threads already explaining why KOTCS gets criticized, but I'll sum up my main problems with it here:

1. No tension. For an action/adventure movie, there were surprisingly few moments that had me at the edge of my seat, and that's a problem. In fact, the only moment that really had me thinking, "Uh oh, what's he going to do?" was the Doomtown scene. After that, the movie has less tension than a Woody Woodpecker cartoon.

2. No emotion. I don't expect heaps of emotional content in an Indiana Jones film, obviously, but there's a brief scene near the beginning of this movie that actually kind of works on an emotional level-- it's the scene when Indy is talking to the dean. The film could have followed through on that. Instead, we never again hear about anything from that scene. Indy's concerns about getting older aren't tapped into again. His sense of feeling out of place in his own country is ignored (hell, the whole FBI subplot is entirely dropped.) Etc, etc. "Last Crusade" found a way to be fun AND incorporate some emotion. KOTCS feels as though it briefly tries to go down the same path, but then says, "Ah, the hell with it, let's just goof around instead!"

3. Too many characters. By the end of the film, Indy actually starts to feel like a relatively minor character in an ensemble cast.

4. Indy doesn't actually DO much of anything. He's supposed to be the hero, but in this film, he doesn't really do a hell of a lot to save the day. Mutt saves him, Oxley figures things out, etc. Even during the big waterfall scene, Indy does absolutely nothing other than sit there and get incredibly lucky. As far-fetched as the raft scene was in TOD, at least Indy was being pro-active. The waterfall scene is kind of like if Indy just sat in that plane in TOD and said, "Uh oh, this is going to hurt." Then crashed into the mountain, and somehow, miraculously, walked away unscathed.

So, yeah, I didn't mind aliens, and I could live with the Tarzan homage, and I can even enjoy the silliness of a nuked fridge. But making an Indy film that lacks tension and that relegates Indy to being a supporting character is really a step in the wrong direction.
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Old 03-29-2013, 09:14 PM   #52
Túrin Turambar
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To me its still a good film, but it could have been a great classic film, they missed out on a lot of things with it. I still see it at least on par with Temple.

To lighthearted from the start with the gophers should have been darker in parts.

Didn't like the Mac character or Mutt, they should have scraped the Mac character and replaced him with Saller had him from the start again, he should have been in it he's in Last crusade and raiders. And i really wanted Sean to come back just for one scene.

I like the fridge scene was like the raft scene in temple.
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Old 03-31-2013, 12:29 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Túrin Turambar
To me its still a good film, but it could have been a great classic film, they missed out on a lot of things with it. I still see it at least on par with Temple.

To lighthearted from the start with the gophers should have been darker in parts.

Didn't like the Mac character or Mutt, they should have scraped the Mac character and replaced him with Saller had him from the start again, he should have been in it he's in Last crusade and raiders. And i really wanted Sean to come back just for one scene.

I like the fridge scene was like the raft scene in temple.

Saller? Is that a typo? Do you mean Sallah? I think you do and if so, I am glad they didn't bring him back again. He works in the other two films due to location. Putting Sallah in the South American jungle would make no sense. He is not an archaeologists and is a family man. He is a digger and I would imagine diggers tend to not be world travelers. So putting him in the last film would have been another attempt bring nostalgia to the film and would make the film make less sense than it already does. I enjoy the film but if it were any thinner.........
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Old 03-31-2013, 04:46 PM   #54
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Yes Sallah..You have a point, I just thought Mac was a waste though didnt like the character could have done better with that.
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Old 03-31-2013, 06:23 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Túrin Turambar
Yes Sallah..You have a point, I just thought Mac was a waste though didnt like the character could have done better with that.

Just to let you know, I meant no disrespect about the whole Saller thing. The Mac character was poorly conceived and could have been done better but that goes along with the rest of the film. I like CS but find it to be the worst chapter we have seen on the big screen.
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Old 05-14-2013, 12:29 PM   #56
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Having read over some of the opinions in this thread and others, I've come to realize that I'm probably hopelessly biased with regard to then Indiana Jones films. Truthfully, KOTCS probably never really got a fair shake from me from the moment I sat down in the darkened theater to view it.

Raiders of the Lost Ark remains my favorite film of the series and it's the one that, when I become nostalgic for Indy's adventures, I'm most likely to watch again. I don't actively dislike Temple of Doom or Last Crusade, but neither of those films nailed down the gritty atmopshere established by the original. I truly wish that the tone of Raiders had been replicated by the other movies in the franchise.

Somehow Raiders (at least in my mind) struck the perfect balance between pulp action and realism. In viewing it, everything "feels" plausible to the viewer, even if some of the action is clearly larger than life. There's also a fascinating set of preexisting relationships (Belloq, Forrestal, Abner Ravenwood) and an "archaeological underworld" that feels truly compelling and begs to be explored further.

Looking at KOTCS in that light, I have to be blunt: nothing feels plausible. I can recall, long before the film came out, reading the Saucermen from Mars script and laughing manically over the refrigerator sequence. Then, lo and behold, it appears in KOTCS. The action in the film really seemed more in keeping with the tongue-in-cheek tone of the Mummy movies, as opposed to Indiana Jones. And as has been pointed out previously, the relationships that were posited in KOTCS seemed manufactured: essentially characters that existed solely for the purpose of moving the plot forward. Even Indy's interactions with Marion Ravenwood seemed rather flat and anemic.

All that said, I'm obviously biased. KOTCS is a very different film than Raiders. Holding Raiders as the "gold standard" probably prevented me from ever taking KOTCS seriously. Once the atomic bomb went off, my brain slammed into neutral.

I keep telling myself that I need to give KOTCS another screening, one in which I do my utmost to set aside my preconceived notions about what an Indiana Jones film "should" be. I just haven't been able to pull that off as yet.
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Old 08-17-2013, 11:04 AM   #57
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I think this video sums up the titular question

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Old 08-17-2013, 11:43 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pale Horse

Last time I shared this video, it and I got flamed for posting it. Good times.
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Old 08-17-2013, 12:54 PM   #59
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I remember it as though it were yesterday. Happy days.
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Old 08-17-2013, 01:10 PM   #60
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I liked the film but didn't believe it was up to the standard of "Raiders" or "Last Crusade".

It did have some old coins in it (Spanish doubloons and cobs), that was interesting to me as a coin person.

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Old 08-17-2013, 04:52 PM   #61
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Too much humour that wasn't remotely funny. Poor characters in ox, Marion, mutt and mac, not to mention an ending that made no sense whatsoever.
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Old 08-17-2013, 08:43 PM   #62
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I think it was a good film.
Like it or not, it's part of the canon, and it is the canonical ending to the series. So there.
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Old 08-17-2013, 08:50 PM   #63
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Outside of the fridge, nothing in KOTCS is any more unrealistic than anything in the other films. And all the films had stupid moments.

The Nazi Monkey in Raiders giving the Nazi Salute.

Who could survive being pulled under and behind a truck going at high speeds, and then pull themselves up against the force of said truck, all while having a gun shot wound to the arm?

The raft and water ride segment scenes of TOD.

The silliness of the bug scenes in the TOD's dinner scene. Willie screaming every five minutes.

Short Round--typical 80s sidekick kid.

A man surviving his heart being ripped out of his chest.

The fact that the Sankara Stones are not explained in depth. We have no idea even why they're a threat except to the Indian village's stability.

The Rope Bridge scene. No one could survive that.

In LC, the fact that Indy gets his hat, scar, future adventure attire and fear of snakes all in the space of 15 minutes.

The scene in LC where the Nazi pilot destroys his plane to follow the Jones duo into the tunnel, then dumbly looks at his own plane, causing a goofy double take shared between father and son.

Sallah made into almost a village idiot in LC; Marcus made in a doddering old fool who seems half senile.

Indy meeting Adolf Hitler face to face and having the Diary signed by him.

And actually, if looking at it from a certain perspective, aliens are actually more plausible in terms of possibly being real than the Biblical God or the slew of Hindu deities.

All KOTCS did was amp up what already existed in the series a notch. Nothing more, nothing less. Take away the Fridge scene and you have a good final chapter on par with TOD.
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Old 08-18-2013, 12:27 AM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiders112390
The Nazi Monkey in Raiders giving the Nazi Salute.

Monkeys can be trained.

I think some of them are members here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiders112390
Who could survive being pulled under and behind a truck going at high speeds, and then pull themselves up against the force of said truck, all while having a gun shot wound to the arm?

Indy had grit. Coupled with the adrenaline of the chase.

This was the 'stagecoach' stunt, and as such was integral to the story being told and the style being evoked.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiders112390
The raft and water ride segment scenes of TOD.

Is tempered by snow, slope and water.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiders112390
The silliness of the bug scenes in the TOD's dinner scene. Willie screaming every five minutes.

Is an issue of bad taste.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiders112390
Short Round--typical 80s sidekick kid.

I don't know how typical Asian kung fu fighting kid sidekicks were in the '80s. Bruce Lee put in a credible adult version in the '60s.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiders112390
A man surviving his heart being ripped out of his chest.

ROTLA established that the supernatural would be part of Indy's world.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiders112390
The fact that the Sankara Stones are not explained in depth. We have no idea even why they're a threat except to the Indian village's stability.

If you want lessons in history and culture I wouldn't recommend getting them from Indiana Jones.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiders112390
The Rope Bridge scene. No one could survive that.

Haven't seen that scene in a few years. As I remember it looked painful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiders112390
In LC, the fact that Indy gets his hat, scar, future adventure attire and fear of snakes all in the space of 15 minutes.

They were seminal moments that happened to come all at once.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiders112390
The scene in LC where the Nazi pilot destroys his plane to follow the Jones duo into the tunnel, then dumbly looks at his own plane, causing a goofy double take shared between father and son.

Luftwaffe pilots weren't all they were cracked up to be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiders112390
Sallah made into almost a village idiot in LC; Marcus made in a doddering old fool who seems half senile.

As opposed to Mutt, Marion, Mac, Oxley, Spalko, Dovchenko and Stanforth being made to look like village idiots in KOTCS.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiders112390
Indy meeting Adolf Hitler face to face and having the Diary signed by him.

It got much worse during the YIJC.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiders112390
And actually, if looking at it from a certain perspective, aliens are actually more plausible in terms of possibly being real than the Biblical God or the slew of Hindu deities.

Agreed.

It makes sense that there are only aliens in Indiana Jones.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiders112390
All KOTCS did was amp up what already existed in the series a notch. Nothing more, nothing less. Take away the Fridge scene and you have a good final chapter on par with TOD.

Take away the fridge scene and you lose the best part of the film.
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Old 08-21-2013, 11:45 PM   #65
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Despite KOTCS being my least favorite Indy film, I still think parts of it have merit. I can handle the fridge scene and I understand Lucas and Spielberg's aspiration to expand the story by giving Indy a kid (even if he is irritating). One of my main issues lies in the overhaul of CGI. For me it just isn't able to live up to the gritty pulp serial-esque practical fx of the originals. Also, the aliens just felt out of place in my opinion.
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Old 08-22-2013, 09:36 PM   #66
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It is my least favourite Indy film but it has grown on me. I disliked it most watching it at the cinema. Having bought the dvd though it has grown on me and is watchable. Sometimes just to look at Indys uniform in detail, how sad am I?

But it is too light hearted in parts and too much CGI.
The snake scene when used to help Indy out of quick sand was just too implausible although I can see why the idea came up, ie Indy not liking snakes but just leave your believability at the door when watching that scene.
Also little scenes like Marion smiling in the jeep as it nearly went over the cliff just wasn't right in the ant scene. Wasn't she scared? Probably other scenes that escape me for now.
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Old 08-28-2013, 07:35 AM   #67
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I really don't know why this thread had to be started. The same 10 people that frequently post at TheRaven will just reiterate the same arguments they've been having since 2008. But, I'll bite.

Quote:
Originally Posted by scott434
Am I the only one who really liked Indy IV? I've read soooooo many complaints!

I really hate this type of question. Of course not.

Far from it.

Overall - no, you're not the only one. I hate that question.

Critics liked it a lot. Audiences in the majority loved it. Indy fans as a whole like it a lot and many who didn't have warmed up to it. It was a box office/DVD success. It does amazingly well on cable. Internet commentary has shifted back to positive for the most part. It's a part of the series, now.

It has a vocal minority who whined about it for awhile and some still do. But, very few sequels don't have this at times. Internet commentary was negative for a while but it's back to positive as of recent years, which is good.

I was at the AMC Marathons of all four films last year. Everyone stayed for all the films and clapped for all four. KOTCS/LC got the biggest/best audience reception. Other Raveners who attended reported the same thing happen at their showings. Everyone I met there were positive, great people who loved the whole series. Same with when I went to the Nat. Geo exhibit in November.

Everyone I know loved the film - and I've got links to threads where most Raveners say the same.


-RottenTomatoes Score; 78%/User Score of 3.5 - .4 points less than 'Batman Begins'.
-Empire Magazine's Top 500 Films of All Time voted by readers/website users
-Cannes Film Festival = Standing Ovation
-MovieWeb Fan/Critic Accumulated score; 82% and a 3.8 "Great" score.
-CinemaScore= B+ average
-MetaCritic Score - 65 (4 Pts less than acclaimed Avengers) 7.1 User
-MovieFone 3.5 Stars Audience/4.0 Stars Critics
-Yahoo! Movies User Score - 4/5 Stars/B
-BoxOfficeMojo Surveys; 41% gave it an A, 37%; B. Compared to Temple of Doom's
37% A ratings, with each film; having the same number of votes, relatively.
-Fandango Critic/Fan Accumulated Scores of Hundreds of Votes/Reviews = Go!
-AICN - Two 'A' reviews. "Indiana Jones 4 is our childhood captured in perfection."
-Fandango Users/Critics Rated it 'Go Now!
-Nominated Best Action Movie at the 2009 Critics' Choice Awards.
-The Visual Effects Society nominated it for Best Single Visual Effect of the Year, Best Outstanding Matte Paintings, Best Models and Miniatures, and Best Created Environment in a Feature Motion Picture.
-Nominated by Saturn Awards for Best Science Fiction Film, Best Director, Best Actor, Best Supporting Actor, Best Costumes and Best Special Effects.
-Entertainment Weekly Review A-
-NY Times Review- A
-Coming Soon reviews = 8/10 and 7/10
-Billboard Review- B
-Saturday; Evening Post; - A
-Roger Ebert - 3/4 Stars
-Most Watched Film on TV - 2009/2010
-Top 3 DVD sales - 2008/09
-78% Voted Good to Excellent/Perfect at The Raven Net forums - 260+Voters.
-ComCast Cable Score - 3 out of 4 Stars
-SlashFilmSurvey; 254,356 votes, 83% voted 'loved it'.
TheRaven forums = 115 out of 168 people voted 7 or above, with 8 to 9 taking 50% of the vote.


Yeah...really feeling the hate. Yes, sarcasm on that.

So, no. You're not the only one. Not sure why you'd even ask that. Most people/fans liked it a lot, as did it the critics. A vocal minority whined for a couple years but that's all it was. Take care.
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Old 08-28-2013, 01:17 PM   #68
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Dr. Jonesy! You've returned to us!!!
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Old 08-28-2013, 07:47 PM   #69
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And yet Randy Flagg's 4 points made above are valid points. I know there are all those organisations cited in Dr.Jonesy's post where there are all those marvellous percentages proving popularity, but the movie does require criticism for glaring shortcomings, which have been pointed out time and time again, so I won't do that here.

Some like it, some don't. A lot of people like McDonalds, but when you go to McDonalds you know what you are in for. With CS's sloppy burger, there had already been a banquet served, starting with a gourmet dish and then each course declining after that. Maybe Indy5 could be like a watered down cola to cut the grease of CS?
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Old 08-28-2013, 09:25 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mickiana
And yet Randy Flagg's 4 points made above are valid points. I know there are all those organisations cited in Dr.Jonesy's post where there are all those marvellous percentages proving popularity, but the movie does require criticism for glaring shortcomings, which have been pointed out time and time again, so I won't do that here.

Hey, of course. Any film does!


The sect of people that ended up not liking the film are great for providing criticism (like any criticism, some is valid, some is nitpicking) and I agree with plenty of it. Unfortunately, a lot of it applies to the other sequels and made me take them down a peg as well.

Personally, I heard the criticism for this film and the other sequels enough years ago. It's been talked about to death so I've retired from the conversation to just enjoying all the films like most do.

Anyone who happens to dislike the film or any Indy sequel are fully allowed to have their take and I'm glad they helped flesh out what we loved and didn't love about this sequel and every sequel. Every film has room for criticism. The only thing I didn't like is when a vocal few went into hyperbole/downright hatred. Whether it's for Temple or Kingdom. Or even Crusade.
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Old 08-29-2013, 07:56 AM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mickiana
With CS's sloppy burger, there had already been a banquet served, starting with a gourmet dish and then each course declining after that.

The difference between a prime cut of beef, and the miscellaneous scrapings from the abattoir floor served up at full price to a young, hungry and benighted audience.
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Old 08-29-2013, 12:22 PM   #72
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With all of these food/taste metaphors rolling around, I'm beginning to think we'll get a proletariat and bourgeoisie argument here. KOTCS being for the former.

Raiders is the 1%!

Find your facebook page soon!
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Old 08-29-2013, 02:05 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pale Horse
With all of these food/taste metaphors rolling around, I'm beginning to think we'll get a proletariat and bourgeoisie argument here. KOTCS being for the former.

Raiders is the 1%!

Find your facebook page soon!

Dr.Jonesy's litany of the voting habits of the great unwashed - which, incidentally, demonstrates the inherent problems of democracy - portends the coming dictatorship of the proletariat.

Indy is dead. Long live the uber Indy.

Uber Indy "will not be held back by the hogwash of modern-mediocre-industrial-scientific-bourgeois-Christian civilization."

Uber Indy will take the skies to defy atom bombs and repel alien invasions.

No more puny arm-biting soft bourgeois Indy!



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Old 08-29-2013, 02:50 PM   #74
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No more puny arm-biting soft bourgeois Indy!

No, now the New paradigm is the uber 99% who don't even know how to use a rope.

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Old 08-29-2013, 03:12 PM   #75
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The ham-fisted execution of the film was the execution of the film, if you get my meaning. None of the basic ideas were inherently bad on their own. I stand behind my opinion that it was a solid premise. But if you want to go for humor in such an iconic franchise, well, it should actually be funny, or else it's just corny. And I am well aware that Indy films aren't meant to be really deep or anything, but if the creators lack the self-awareness to sell the STORY, how can anyone be expected to take it seriously enough to suspend their disbelief through the whole film.
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