Is Indy an atheist (in Raiders)?

Montana Smith · Jun 16, 2010

Walton said:
Now that's something I haven't been able to find locally...the RPG books.

I highly recommend the sourcebooks, especially for Raiders, which is full of background detail.

Walton said:
Even though Indy is fiction, he does set an example that I believe should be emulated...test everything. One of the criticisms I have about Christianity (and I am a follower of Christ, so take this as an insider's commentary) is too many are riding an emotional wave that they consider a compass for determining God's will (the church version of "if it feels good, do it") and too many more use the Christian terminology as a manipulative device over others, what with "God told me so" and all that. Too few actually scrutinize the things they perceive to be "leading" them.

Well, I agree with all of that. The self-scrutiny aspect wasn't too apparent earlier.

Doing a History degree drummed home the practice of putting source material to the test, and not believing the written word until it can be supported by other sources. Until that can be done, it was always a case of writing "possibly" or "likely", and never anything in absolute terminology.

Doing an English degree simulataneously opened up new methods of approaching texts - political, psychoanalytical, postmodernist. The latter being the one that I followed most closely, wherein skepticism of 'truth' became a form of mobile warfare! Not a codified position, but a mobile position of testing each new text by dissecting it, and stripping it back layer by layer.

Walton · Jun 17, 2010

Montana Smith said:
I highly recommend the sourcebooks, especially for Raiders, which is full of background detail.

Well, I agree with all of that. The self-scrutiny aspect wasn't too apparent earlier.

Doing a History degree drummed home the practice of putting source material to the test, and not believing the written word until it can be supported by other sources. Until that can be done, it was always a case of writing "possibly" or "likely", and never anything in absolute terminology.

Doing an English degree simulataneously opened up new methods of approaching texts - political, psychoanalytical, postmodernist. The latter being the one that I followed most closely, wherein skepticism of 'truth' became a form of mobile warfare! Not a codified position, but a mobile position of testing each new text by dissecting it, and stripping it back layer by layer.

I did something similar, but specific to religion. I learned Greek...learned the mechanics in which the language functioned, thus eliminating -- as far as Christianity is concerned -- many false doctrines and solidifying the true ones; in other words, it became apparent to me that many so-called teachers of Christianity were forcing the text to say things that, per its original mechanics, it could never have been understood to say to its original audience. For me, it couched the study of the Bible (and any ancient text) in a real practical, context. It also increased my awareness that a growing majority in the Church (pan-denominational, that is) are running on half-baked ideas that bear little or no relationship to the actual teaching of the Bible. That's dangerous ground.

The other was a study in world religions and philosophy. Their origins, comparisons, and contrasts. Like your study, my study covered the political climate in which the religion was formed, as well as the history of the primary founders (wherein we're also talking about off-shoot religions)...that is, why did they leave existing religions and form their own? And the philosophical part was no light reading either.

Montana Smith · Jun 17, 2010

Walton said:
I did something similar, but specific to religion. I learned Greek...learned the mechanics in which the language functioned, thus eliminating -- as far as Christianity is concerned -- many false doctrines and solidifying the true ones; in other words, it became apparent to me that many so-called teachers of Christianity were forcing the text to say things that, per its original mechanics, it could never have been understood to say to its original audience. For me, it couched the study of the Bible (and any ancient text) in a real practical, context. It also increased my awareness that a growing majority in the Church (pan-denominational, that is) are running on half-baked ideas that bear little or no relationship to the actual teaching of the Bible. That's dangerous ground.

The other was a study in world religions and philosophy. Their origins, comparisons, and contrasts. Like your study, my study covered the political climate in which the religion was formed, as well as the history of the primary founders (wherein we're also talking about off-shoot religions)...that is, why did they leave existing religions and form their own? And the philosophical part was no light reading either.

Here we can certainly find some common ground, then. Beneath the surface of things, beneath the top layer of 'popular' history, is where you find the really exciting stuff! But you also have to wade through all the conspiracy theories as well. There comes a point with postmodernism where you trust nothing - all those disconnected signs that never lead to firm foundation - a web of uncontrolled disinformation, cliches, and random patterns. Nothing in control but chance.

In an sense it's Indy as the delver into the unknown, threading his way through his strange world, that is one of the most appealing parts of the movies. And always, it seems, we're left with questions and no definitive answers. The mystery remains, and Indy rides his supernatural luck into another adventure.

Walton · Jun 17, 2010

Montana Smith said:
Here we can certainly find some common ground, then. Beneath the surface of things, beneath the top layer of 'popular' history, is where you find the really exciting stuff! But you also have to wade through all the conspiracy theories as well. There comes a point with postmodernism where you trust nothing - all those disconnected signs that never lead to firm foundation - a web of uncontrolled disinformation, cliches, and random patterns. Nothing in control but chance.

In an sense it's Indy as the delver into the unknown, threading his way through his strange world, that is one of the most appealing parts of the movies. And always, it seems, we're left with questions and no definitive answers. The mystery remains, and Indy rides his supernatural luck into another adventure.

One of the things I did like about KOTCS was where he got into the Mayan language, the variable meanings for the words. In Greek, you can do that with a string of words, but generally, they tend to have specific words for specific things..."logos" for instance is "word" but it is specifically a "written word" while "rhema" is a "spoken word."

Indy's education has always been something I've marveled at. "Expert in the Occult." No doubt.

chicago103 · Jun 19, 2010

Montana Smith said:
Indy's world differs from ours in that a 'supernatural' is shown to exist, that it's still undefined by science means that it isn't yet incorporated into the natural world (even though it is a 'natural' part of Indy's world).

Unless you have been everywhere in the world at every point in history one cannot make a statement like that. Our world could very well be like Indy's world for all we know where the "supernatural" is shown to exist to some people like Indy.

Sure, I havent seen anything as blatently supernatural as what Indy has experienced (I have had some experiences that I think might be supernatural but again nothing anywhere near on the level of the Indy movies). It also seems that you have not and probably noone on this forum has had an experience like something out of an Indy movie (although I cant know that for certain

) it is entirely possible that some people at some points in history has had experiences that demonstrate the supernatural exists (which might contribute to the origin of some religions). However that would likely only be a small fraction of all people who ever lived, again I am talking on that scale. Hundreds of millions of people if not billions have had experiences they might consider supernatural, whether or not these experiences are real is a matter of debate but to many people they believe the supernatural has been shown to exist to them.

In the same token within the Indiana Jones universe the average person never experiences anything like what Indy did, in this life anyways. In the Indy universe there would naturally be many skeptics who believe that the "supernatural has not been shown to exist" and our duplicates in that universe would be pretty much having this exact same conversation completly clueless of all the wierd stuff that happened to a guy named Indiana Jones.

Montana Smith · Jun 19, 2010

chicago103 said:
Unless you have been everywhere in the world at every point in history one cannot make a statement like that. Our world could very well be like Indy's world for all we know where the "supernatural" is shown to exist to some people like Indy.

Sure, I havent seen anything as blatently supernatural as what Indy has experienced (I have had some experiences that I think might be supernatural but again nothing anywhere near on the level of the Indy movies). It also seems that you have not and probably noone on this forum has had an experience like something out of an Indy movie (although I cant know that for certain ) it is entirely possible that some people at some points in history has had experiences that demonstrate the supernatural exists (which might contribute to the origin of some religions). However that would likely only be a small fraction of all people who ever lived, again I am talking on that scale. Hundreds of millions of people if not billions have had experiences they might consider supernatural, whether or not these experiences are real is a matter of debate but to many people they believe the supernatural has been shown to exist to them.

In the same token within the Indiana Jones universe the average person never experiences anything like what Indy did, in this life anyways. In the Indy universe there would naturally be many skeptics who believe that the "supernatural has not been shown to exist" and our duplicates in that universe would be pretty much having this exact same conversation completly clueless of all the wierd stuff that happened to a guy named Indiana Jones.

The difference is that anybody who watches an Indiana Jones movie is shown that the superantural exists in Indy's world. The same cannot be said of everyone who exists in our world, where some claim it does, but science cannot define and prove it. When odd occurences are discovered, analyzed and their causes known, they are no longer part of the supernatural, but part of the natural world.

Walton · Jun 21, 2010

chicago103 said:
Unless you have been everywhere in the world at every point in history one cannot make a statement like that. Our world could very well be like Indy's world for all we know where the "supernatural" is shown to exist to some people like Indy.

I agree with that. Besides which, even if you have never personally witnessed something supernatural/miraculous, you probably know someone who has.

chicago103 said:
In the same token within the Indiana Jones universe the average person never experiences anything like what Indy did, in this life anyways. In the Indy universe there would naturally be many skeptics who believe that the "supernatural has not been shown to exist" and our duplicates in that universe would be pretty much having this exact same conversation completly clueless of all the wierd stuff that happened to a guy named Indiana Jones.

I for one have had a storm part for me twice as a response to prayer. 1st time, I'm driving along and both of my windshield wipers go out...just stop working. It's raining cats and dogs, visibility of about 20 feet. I'm doing about 40 mph, and I know the road's turn okay but not exactly when they happen. And you better believe I'm praying. I hang a left onto a highway when off to my right (accounting for the angle of the rainfall, mind you), the sun breaks through the clouds and the clouds are parting parallel to my course on the highway. I kid you not, I am driving in the beam of sunlight that has broken through the clouds. It was like a sword of light rending the storm. (There was no choir music or anything like that...except maybe in my head as I realized what was going on.)

2nd time was on a roadtrip from DFW to Houston. Again, raining cats and dogs and our car is hydroplaning all over the place...on a very straight stretch of road. My friend who was driving asks me to pray. I do. As I am praying (only about 15 seconds into it), asking God to get us safely to Houston, my friend hits me and tells me to look up. Ahead of us, directly over the highway, the storm is parting like a Red Sea in the sky. Eventually, we outran the storm and it didn't catch back up to us until after we reached our destination.

I believe -- and I am not insisting you believe -- but I believe that God hears and answers prayers. And the supernatural does happen.

Stoo · Jun 21, 2010

Walton said:
Eventually, we outran the storm and it didn't catch back up to us until after we reached our destination.

I believe -- and I am not insisting you believe -- but I believe that God hears and answers prayers. And the supernatural does happen.

The routine experience of outrunning a rainstorm in a moving car is supernatural?

Montana Smith · Jun 21, 2010

Stoo said:
The routine experience of outrunning a rainstorm in a moving car is supernatural?

We called the dog, Indiana, and the car... Christine.

Reminds me of RC's nocturnal visions a while back.

Walton · Jun 21, 2010

Stoo said:
The routine experience of outrunning a rainstorm in a moving car is supernatural?

No, the storm breaking directly over the highway as I'm asking God for a little help is supernatural. I know you've all got your opinions, but you weren't there.

Stoo · Jun 21, 2010

Walton, chalk it up as a coincidence. There's no need to have been there to know that the clouds would have parted whether you praying or not. "About 15 seconds into it (the prayers)"...Had you been a little heavier on the gas pedal, the sun would've shown through even before you began. Storms pass, especially when you're driving through them!

Montana Smith said:
Reminds me of RC's nocturnal visions a while back.

Two peas in a pod.

Walton · Jun 21, 2010

Stoo said:
Walton, chalk it up as a coincidence. There's no need to have been there to know that the clouds would have parted whether you praying or not. "About 15 seconds into it (the prayers)"...Had you been a little heavier on the gas pedal, the sun would've shown through even before you began. Storms pass, especially when you're driving through them!
Two peas in a pod.

We couldn't have gone heavier on the gas pedal. The car was hydroplaning. Do you drive? Do you know how that works?

Coincidence...no. The storm was horizon to horizon...you don't outrun those unless a gap opens up, which it did.

Sure, I grant that your position is had I not prayed, but only waited 15 seconds, the storm would have broken anyway. But since it didn't happen that way, I have the facts of my experience to relate to you as it happened. I could counterpoint just as uselessly as you did (that's what "what if" amounts to) that if I hadn't prayed, nothing would have happened and we may not have made it through the storm. Again, since it didn't go down that way, I have the facts my experience to give you as it happened: I was in the midst of asking for Divine help and got it.

Lance Quazar · Jun 21, 2010

Walton said:
We couldn't have gone heavier on the gas pedal. The car was hydroplaning. Do you drive? Do you know how that works?

Coincidence...no. The storm was horizon to horizon...you don't outrun those unless a gap opens up, which it did.

Sure, I grant that your position is had I not prayed, but only waited 15 seconds, the storm would have broken anyway. But since it didn't happen that way, I have the facts of my experience to relate to you as it happened. I could counterpoint just as uselessly as you did (that's what "what if" amounts to) that if I hadn't prayed, nothing would have happened and we may not have made it through the storm. Again, since it didn't go down that way, I have the facts my experience to give you as it happened: I was in the midst of asking for Divine help and got it.

http://www.skepdic.com/confirmbias.html

Walton · Jun 21, 2010

Lance Quazar said:
http://www.skepdic.com/confirmbias.html

Everyone does that. You can't open your mouth without speaking to your beliefs. Does not this link strengthen your beliefs...which happen to oppose mine? It must or you wouldn't have brought it up. Lance, I don't know you, but the nature of the link leads me to believe you're an atheist (guessing, don't mind being wrong). Thus, since you don't believe in God, you come up with a link wherein the information is intended to debunk accounts and experiences such as mine. So we're back to pot and kettle here, boys. That link's information is meaningless and useless.

Stoo up there asks what's so supernatural about outrunning a storm. He did just the same thing. He omitted the parts of the story he didn't believe in an distilled it down to two guys taking a drive who weren't heavy enough on the gas pedal. He didn't even acknowledge the dangerous conditions (i.e., hydroplaning), which I would think might register as an important detail, even among atheists.

You see no reason to change your mind, and I am fine with that. I'm not here to convert anyone to my particular Christian views...but I have no problem discussing them either.

JuniorJones · Jun 21, 2010

What we all have is faith, faith in our own beliefs whether religous or not as there are no clear answers to our questions regarding our existence.

Walton, you have your faith and that guides you but does it truly answer the question of our existence.

I personally think the question is too big and the discussion has always been divisive but it is your faith that drives you on as otherwise what have you got?

Stoo · Jun 21, 2010

Walton said:
We couldn't have gone heavier on the gas pedal. The car was hydroplaning. Do you drive? Do you know how that works?

Uh, yeah, I drive...and know very well how to combat hydroplaning.

(Severe rainstorms & large puddles are nothing compared to a snow blizzard or a downward road covered with patches of black ice.

)

Forget going faster & allow me to rephrase:...Had you hit the road 2 minutes earlier than you did, while maintaining the same speed, the clouds would have broken before you began to pray.

Walton said:
Coincidence...no. The storm was horizon to horizon...you don't outrun those unless a gap opens up, which it did.

Which is completely natural. Coincidence...yes.

Walton said:
Sure, I grant that your position is had I not prayed, but only waited 15 seconds, the storm would have broken anyway. But since it didn't happen that way, I have the facts of my experience to relate to you as it happened. I could counterpoint just as uselessly as you did (that's what "what if" amounts to) that if I hadn't prayed, nothing would have happened and we may not have made it through the storm. Again, since it didn't go down that way, I have the facts my experience to give you as it happened: I was in the midst of asking for Divine help and got it.

You drove through a couple of heavy rainstorms. So what? People do it all the time without praying. This is a very poor example of Divine Intervention! :whip:

Walton · Jun 21, 2010

Stoo said:
Uh, yeah, I drive...and know very well how to combat hydroplaning. (Severe rainstorms & large puddles are nothing compared to a snow blizzard or a downward road covered with patches of black ice.)

Forget going faster & allow me to rephrase:...Had you hit the road 2 minutes earlier than you did, while maintaining the same speed, the clouds would have broken before you began to pray.
Which is completely natural. Coincidence...yes.
You drove through a couple of heavy rainstorms. So what? People do it all the time without praying. This is a very poor example of Divine Intervention!

To each his own, friend. Change the details as much as you like, but my experience is what it is; I didn't depart sooner. Wait, let me try...if you'd grown up in my shoes, you'd be me. This is a fun game. I could play all day!

As I said on another thread, the real question is can any of us -- theistic, atheistic, or agnostic -- afford to be wrong? If there truly is no God, we can all afford to be wrong about that, because there's no consequence.

But suppose you go your whole life believing there is no God, and one day you meet Him...and He's not a Buddha you can kill permanently. I know, per you, there is no God so the question is irrelevant...but allow me to play God's advocate (since so many of you are willing to be devil's advocate, and you don't believe in him either). Conceive the possibility, even that God exists and has chosen to remain largely silent. To me, it seems a risk you are already willing to take based on your stated beliefs because you do not count it a risk; that is, to you, it is right or proper or rational. To me, such a thing is in fact risk, and as such, unwise to take upon oneself.

Stoo · Jun 21, 2010

Walton said:
I know, per you, there is no God so the question is irrelevant...

Obviously, you don't know me at all...

Every so often, a Christian zealot joins here and would rather espouse their views about religion instead of talking about Indiana Jones. You seem to be one of those...(religious & political threads usually end up being shut down). Personally, I would much rather hear what you have to say about Indy OUTSIDE of the religious angle.

Who cares if you think G_d saved you from a rainy road trip? Things like this happen all the time!

Did you ever stop and think that you made it through the storm by yourself?

This is why the Leap-From-The-Lion's-Head scene in "Crusade" is one of the good parts of the movie. Back in '89, I LAUGHED in the theatre when Indy was standing at the edge, mustering up his supposed 'faith' before taking his 1st step into the chasm. The 'disguised' bridge was a great solution to show that Indy's pseudo-belief would get him past that final obstacle.

JuniorJones · Jun 21, 2010

Stoo, it seems like your gonna burn in hell like the rest of us but like the hot-tub we'll just have to get use to it.

I must say that's not my interpretation of the scene but it's a good one.

Montana Smith · Jun 21, 2010

Stoo said:
Every so often, a Christian zealot joins here and would rather espouse their views about religion instead of talking about Indiana Jones. You seem to be one of those...(religious & political threads usually end up being shut down). Personally, I would much rather hear what you have to say about Indy OUTSIDE of the religious angle.

Who cares if you think G_d saved you from a rainy road trip? Things like this happen all the time! Did you ever stop and think that you made it through the storm by yourself?

Yup. The original point was that the audience sees proof that the supernatural exists in Indy's world. Whereas in our world the supernatural is not an accepted element that can be taught as fact or explained by science (which would make it natural).

News of a parting rain storm due solely to the power of prayer is not evidence that can be tested and proved by science. It is only proof that the individual has faith in forces beyond the natural effects of geography and climate which dictate weather patterns.

That old adage of God moving in mysterious ways covers many a tragic circumstance where prayer had no effect whatsoever. How many heathens following in the wake of the car also made use of the prayer?

Stoo said:
This is why the Leap-From-The-Lion's-Head scene in "Crusade" is one of the good parts of the movie. Back in '89, I LAUGHED in the theatre when Indy was standing at the edge, mustering up his supposed 'faith' before taking his 1st step into the chasm. The 'disguised' bridge was a great solution to show that Indy's pseudo-belief would get him past that final obstacle.

Perfect example, Stoo.

Is Indy an atheist (in Raiders)?

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