It wants to give us a gift...or was that demand a sacrifice?

Attila the Professor

Moderator
Staff member
The script isn't gospel, but it's a starting place:

David Koepp said:
Oxley, who is staring at the skeleton, transfixed, moves towards the altar and begins to speak, low and rapid. But it isn?t English, it?s--

Indy and Spalko move next to Oxley

INDY (cont?d)
Mayan. He?s speaking Mayan.

SPALKO
What does he say?​

Oxley?s lips moving rapidly, strange, ancient sounds coming out of his mouth.

Indy listens, Oxley, is still talking. Indy tries to decipher.

INDY
He says he?s grateful, he wants--
(correcting himself, he means the
skeleton)--​

Indy turns and looks at the skeleton.

INDY (cont?d)
--it wants to give us a gift.​

The Being seems to look right back at him. Spalko moves closer to the altar.

INDY (cont?d)
A big gift.​

Spalko is speaking to the figure on the altar, low, fervent, almost a prayer.

SPALKO
Tell me-- everything you know, I want it
all, I want to know --​

The skeleton sees her and seems to respond. Something has begun. Indy moves back next to Mutt.

INDY
I?ve got a bad feeling about this.​

Spalko is transfixed. She locks eyes with the main skeleton.

Even apart from how the script describes Indy, as he "tries to decipher," the "bad feeling about this" line seems to indicate he had no real idea what was going to happen next.
 

Montana Smith

Active member
Rocket Surgeon said:
In Dracula, the psychic link betwenn himself and Mina is a two way street, it's a plot point and enables the heroes to "track" his journey back to Transylvania.

Where is there any indication the link between Indy/Ox and the aliens is a two way street?

Indy warns her earlier: Be careful, you might get exactly what you wish for.

The question remains, did Indy translate in good faith?

The question is, were Spalko's feelings for Indy a two-way street. She could have been a worthy Mrs. Jones, and perfect adventuring companion (just the type to banish Mutt from the household and put Marion in the corner).

I don't think Indy would really set her up for a fall, since he desperately tried to save Elsa from her's. There's a difference between those two women and Belloq. Apart from the obvious, there weren't the years of bitterness, or the genuine threat to have him killed. However, having experienced Elsas's reaction to the grail, and knowing his own impetuous nature, he probably believed that Spalko was beyond help.

Attila the Professor said:
Even apart from how the script describes Indy, as he "tries to decipher," the "bad feeling about this" line seems to indicate he had no real idea what was going to happen next.

As Indy translates, it appears that the "gift" is for everyone. Yet Spalko is the one who asks, and the only one who it is specifically given to. I get the feeling that the aliens knew she would be the one to ask, and what she would ask for. She had the skull in her possession, and it no doubt knew her desire, which it would have confirmed with the hive mind. What else could they give but something imparted by the mind? They were planning to leave soon, and they weren't going to give the humans time to collect treasure as a gift. The gift seems always destined to be knowledge based.
 
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Indy's brother

New member
Attila the Professor said:
The script isn't gospel, but it's a starting place:



Even apart from how the script describes Indy, as he "tries to decipher," the "bad feeling about this" line seems to indicate he had no real idea what was going to happen next.

Hmm. Good point. If I were the kind of guy to stick to my guns even in the face of a good reason to drop them (and you all know that I am), I would say that even if he has a mind-meld going on with the IDB's, it doesn't necessarily mean that he knows all of their thoughts. The one insight that we have of his psychic connection was Indy's line "because it told me to". He didn't say "because I could sense that's what I'm supposed to do" or "because I know all of it's thoughts". It was a one-way communique. I think that Indy may have had a general sense of danger from whatever he was reading from the IDB. He was interpreting Ox's literal message, but also may have been receiving something himself. Possibly some kind of subconscious collective, or maybe just psychic run-off. Otherwise he would've probably been a little quicker on his feet with his "translation".

Don't get me wrong, Indy is the sort of character to be able to read the signs anyway, but for the purpose of this argument I'm going to speculate that Indy was tipped off somehow. I also think that through his experiences with the villains of the OT, there was little point in trying to talk Spalko out of it. And why should he? He didn't warn Belloq. He didn't warn Donovan. He sure as hell didn't care what happened to Mola Ram. He tried to save Elsa because he had seen a human side of her and was emotionally and physically involved with her at one point. Not so with Irina. Spalko ordered her men to gun down U.S. Army soldiers. On american soil. I think that Indy would have little sympathy for her.
 

Montana Smith

Active member
Indy's brother said:
I also think that through his experiences with the villains of the OT, there was little point in trying to talk Spalko out of it. And why should he? He didn't warn Belloq. He didn't warn Donovan. He sure as hell didn't care what happened to Mola Ram. He tried to save Elsa because he had seen a human side of her and was emotionally and physically involved with her at one point. Not so with Irina. Spalko ordered her men to gun down U.S. Army soldiers. On american soil. I think that Indy would have little sympathy for her.

The murder of the US guards was on Colonel Dovchenko's orders. He was the Soviet Special Forces officer in charge of operations on this mission.

Colonel Doctor Spalko was KGB, from a psy-ops investigation department. On this mission she's an intelligence officer. While the duties of command are shared, she might wash her hands of Dovchenko's choice of action.

For all her threats to kill Indy, she knew that she was better off with him alive and helping her.

The Lucasian motif for seeing good in compromised characters (i.e. Anakin/Vader) resurfaces in the Indy films. We see it in Indy himself throughout, where he justifies his actions by the end result. Occasionally he just conforms to the standards of the day (e.g. looting artifacts from sacred sites). The Temple of Doom saw Indy at his most selfish point, but the good in him was drawn to the surface by chance.

Belloq and Toht had no mitigating circumstances. Toht was purely sadistic, and Belloq purely ambitious. Dietrich was in too deep, and the mission commander reporting directly to Hitler. He also ordered Marion thrown into the Well of Souls. There could be no saving these three, as none of them showed remorse.

Mola Ram, Donovan and Vogel were all highly ambitious, and visibly enjoying their moments of power. Mola's evil is all too obvious, Donovan shot Henry Sr to force Indy to do his bidding, and Vogel was another Nazi sadist.

Indy didn't, or couldn't, do anything to save any of these characters. They wouldn't have been worth the effort in terms of society.

Although Indy was personally involved with Elsa, she was also only associated with evil by ambition. She was using the Nazi Party to get what she wanted. Her actions in the end wouldn't have supported the Party, as I think she planned to escape with the grail. Hence Indy sees something redeemable in her, something worth trying to save. It could be argued she was possessed and not in control. Though if she survived, her sense of loss might commit her to a life in some grim asylum.

I see Irina Spalko as somewhere between Elsa and the others. High ambition leads her to commit unsavoury actions. As far as she's concerned the Soviet Union is at war with America and other western countries. Albeit an undeclared Cold War. Some fairly nasty things were being done (and would be done) undercover on both sides of Churchill's 'Iron Curtain'. Think of the CIA's actions in Cuba.

Like Dietrich, Spalko is doing her duty in the name of her country - or in both their cases, in the name of the Party, since both were given their missions by the Party leader. That makes her compromised, and she would have been further compromised if a key character scene hadn't been deleted: the telepathic experiment in which she killed young rabbit's one by one to test their mother's reactions.

There was some kind of connection between Spalko and Indy right from their first meeting on screen. She had respect for him, though it was measured and tempered by her duty to the mission in hand. It was in her interests to keep him alive, professionally and maybe personally.

In return Indy would see in her traits of Elsa's character. Spalko was possessed by her need to find what lay at Akator.

In the moments before her demise:

SPALKO (cont’d)

Imagine what they’ll tell us.

INDY

I can’t imagine.

(she turns, looks at him)

Neither could the humans who built this temple, and neither can you.

SPALKO

Belief, Dr. Jones, is a gift you have yet to receive. My sympathies.

INDY

Oh, I believe, sister. That’s why I’m down here.

...

INDY (cont’d)

--it wants to give us a gift.

The Being seems to look right back at him. Spalko moves closer to the altar.

INDY (cont’d)

A big gift.

Spalko is speaking to the figure on the altar, low, fervent, almost a prayer.

SPALKO

Tell me-- everything you know, I want it all, I want to know --

Indy does try to warn her, in stating that she "can't imagine" what the aliens will tell her. There's that line Indy won't cross in dealing with the supernatural, but he knows it's far too late to prevent Spalko from continuing. Her life has been building up to this event.

She had been the prime threat to the alien's mission to leave Akator, and the aliens show they don't have a passion for mercy. They punish her without holding back, and without sympathy for the capacity of the human mind.

Spalko was a redeemable character, but she, like Elsa, made it impossible for Indy to save her. The aliens delivered their form of justice, and those that survived would carry that message away with them.
 
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Montana Smith said:
Spalko was a redeemable character, but she, like Elsa, made it impossible for Indy to save her. The aliens delivered their form of justice, and those that survived would carry that message away with them.
I don't agree that she was redeemable, I never got that feeling. After all Elsa renounced the swastika verbally within sight of def Führer.

Spalko on the other hand never indicated any such ambiguous affinities or predilection:

"How fortunate our failure to kill you, Dr. Jones. You survive to be of service to us once again."

I'd argue she's as conteptuous as the aliens, with no regard for anything but the means to an end.

Her message remains wholly Communist.

Funny thing, I can't think of a character who battled with uncertanty. Indy helped the enemy, sure but he never did it grudgingly. Though Mac was a fence jumper, even he had a single allegiance:money. Spalko was firmly represented every perception of cold war warriors.

I saw nothing redeemable in her.
 
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Montana Smith

Active member
Rocket Surgeon said:
I don't agree that she was redeemable, I never got that feeling. After all Elsa renounced the swastika verbally within sight of def Führer.

Spalko on the other hand never indicated any such ambiguous affinities or predilection:

"How fortunate our failure to kill you, Dr. Jones. You survive to be of service to us once again."

I'd argue she's as conteptuous as the aliens, with no regard for anything but the means to an end.

Her message remains wholly Communist.

Funny thing, I can't think of a character who battled with uncertanty. Indy helped the enemy, sure but he never did it grudgingly. Though Mac was a fence jumper, even he had a single allegiance:money. Spalko was firmly represented every perception of cold war warriors.

I saw nothing redeemable in her.


Immediately after Spalko comments on the fortune of Indy's survival, she quotes Oppenheimer:

SPALKO

?Now I am become Death, the Destroyer of Worlds.? You recognize those words? It was your own Dr. Oppenheimer, after he created the atomic bomb.

She turns off one of the switches and continues to move around Indy.

INDY

He was quoting the Hindu Bible.​


In effect she is saying that the Soviet goals are no worse than America creating the first atom bomb (two of which they dropped on Japan, primarily to put the frighteners on Russia). For Spalko the two countries are at war, even if it is being conducted in secret. She feels herself justified, just as her CIA counterparts would also feel justified. She states it as a race for survival.

A little later they're studying the map


SPALKO

Here. The Sono. The Portuguese word for sleep.

Everyone bends down to see, and Mac presses in close beside Marion.
Indy bends over the map, fascinated now.

INDY

Yes! Good, exactly, very good!

Mutt watches Indy and Spalko studying the map together.

INDY (cont?d)

He wants us to follow this curve of the Sono down to where it meets the Amazon, on the southeast. After that, I?m not sure. a dream kingdom, eyes in tears -- I have no idea know what he means.

Mutt, who?s been peering slides further forward, as Indy studies the map.

INDY (cont?d)

But his route could be right, it?s a completely unexplored part of the canopy.

Spalko bends down closer to the map --

INDY (cont?d)

See, the mapmaker only sketched in a few rough lines-

-- AND MUTT Punches one of the soldiers and OVERTURNS THE TABLE. It hits Spalko in the face, knocking her and Dovchenko back on their asses.

MUTT

RUN!

Mutt heads towards the tent. Indy has no choice but to follow​

For a moment any differences between Indy and Spalko are forgotten. It's now all about the excitement of locating Akator. Indy is even disappointed that Mutt interrupted their discussion with an escape plan.

For me it's a continuation of their initial meeting, that these natural enemies could find a way of working together, only that politics and circumstances stand in their way. I like the idea of enemies plunged together, and forced to co-operate. Like Indy, Spalko is a successful tracker of artifacts. They also have in common the fact that they've tracked artifacts in the name of their country, and have killed for that cause, believing it to be justified in the name of freedom.

That's the crux of the Cold War. A constant battle for supremacy, fearing the other side will gain a technological advantage and wipe the other out.
 
Montana Smith said:
Immediately after Spalko comments on the fortune of Indy's survival...
I agree with everything you wrote, but it remains a means to an end. They share the excitement of discovery, but with different aims/reasons.

In the same manner I scoff at people who walk away from the film believeing the aliens were collectors.

That was Indy's initial assesment and very subjective. Another archaeologist may have reflected on the "treasure chamber" as a junk closet. A place where they threw away the crap that was offered to them in tribute by stupid humans.

Sort of like where you put the Virgin Mary lamp mum gave you a few years back.

They shared the same rush as the footballer and the hooligan watching his team win on hte pitch.

While Elsa might have shared her victoy with Indy, (not likely), Spalko would have had Indy shot.
 

Montana Smith

Active member
Rocket Surgeon said:
I agree with everything you wrote, but it remains a means to an end. They share the excitement of discovery, but with different aims/reasons.

Even Indy's adventures are a means to an end. In ROTLA he takes money to stop Hitler acquiring a secret weapon. He's also driven by pride to claim the Ark before Belloq. Rescuing his father, however, was a genuine mission, to which the grail took second place.

He has to justify his actions just as Spalko does.

No nation is really upstanding and pure. They'll each smile sweetly at one another, while holding a dagger behind their back. Spalko could very well be the Russian version of James Bond. And a little more From Russia With Love in KOTCS wouldn't have gone amiss. A Spalko 'honey trap' would really have compromised Indy!

Rocket Surgeon said:
In the same manner I scoff at people who walk away from the film believeing the aliens were collectors.

That was Indy's initial assesment and very subjective. Another archaeologist may have reflected on the "treasure chamber" as a junk closet. A place where they threw away the crap that was offered to them in tribute by stupid humans.

Sort of like where you put the Virgin Mary lamp mum gave you a few years back.

They shared the same rush as the footballer and the hooligan watching his team win on hte pitch.

They certainly didn't care about the stuff. It was from all over the world and from different eras, and at some point in time the aliens took the trouble to bring it to Akator. Seems like they just lost interest in it.

Rocket Surgeon said:
While Elsa might have shared her victoy with Indy, (not likely), Spalko would have had Indy shot.

I think she would have had Marion and Mutt shot, and then invited Indy back to Russia to check out her wubbleyous in closer detail...
 
Montana Smith said:
Even Indy's adventures are a means to an end. In ROTLA he takes money to stop Hitler acquiring a secret weapon. He's also driven by pride to claim the Ark before Belloq. Rescuing his father, however, was a genuine mission, to which the grail took second place.
Everything is a means to an end by your reckoning, and I don't blame you because I qualified it with "remains." Though more precisely Indy fights fire with fire. He's willing to do what he must, but I don't think he would have mowed down the Akator natives to get past them. (Another cliffhanger opportunity wasted).

Montana Smith said:
He has to justify his actions just as Spalko does.
We all do.

Montana Smith said:
No nation is really upstanding and pure. They'll each smile sweetly at one another, while holding a dagger behind their back. Spalko could very well be the Russian version of James Bond. And a little more From Russia With Love in KOTCS wouldn't have gone amiss. A Spalko 'honey trap' would really have compromised Indy!
While the FBI and Russian agents, including Spalko, are models for this concept, Indy is not.

Indy is us, caught between the rock and a hard place, without the burdens that come from being a nation or world power fighting for doctrinal domination.

Montana Smith said:
They certainly didn't care about the stuff. It was from all over the world and from different eras, and at some point in time the aliens took the trouble to bring it to Akator. Seems like they just lost interest in it.
Maybe they would regift them!


Montana Smith said:
I think she would have had Marion and Mutt shot, and then invited Indy back to Russia to check out her wubbleyous in closer detail...
Now YOU'RE projecting a bit more than intended eh?:p
 
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Montana Smith

Active member
Rocket Surgeon said:
Indy is us, caught between the rock and a hard place, without the burdens that come from being a nation or world power fighting for doctrinal domination.

He's done his bit for his country at various stages of his life (and even a bit for Belgium), but yes, I think he mostly does it for himself. He can't resist the adventure or the prize, but he knows when to stop. He generally has the freedom of choice, rather than the obligation of duty to a superior. He can also set his own level of ambition, whereas an officer like Spalko is probably continually fighting to maintain her position in the face of rivals.

Rocket Surgeon said:
Maybe they regifted them!

Maybe gold to an alien is the equivalent of socks to men at Christmas. (And the aliens don't even wear socks!)

Rocket Surgeon said:
Now YOU'RE projecting a bit more than intended eh?:p

The daydreams of wishfulfillment! ;)
 
Montana Smith said:
He's done his bit for his country at various stages of his life (and even a bit for Belgium), but yes, I think he mostly does it for himself.
I think in many ways Indy sees his ambition in concert with American ideals. I don't see him ever leaving behind or abandoning any of his earlier military or official responsibilities...by which I read your "do his bit for king and country." I doubt he would hold out or keep info from the FBI even if he thought the agents posturing somewhat objectionable.

In short I think what he does for himself is guided more by the greater good than personal gain. The idea of fortune and glory, (temptaion) is always there but what he reposesses isn't primarily for monitary gain, it funds future WORK. I would argue the sacrifice of riding under a truck would merit some creature comforts on the home front.

Montana Smith said:
He can't resist the adventure or the prize, but he knows when to stop. He generally has the freedom of choice, rather than the obligation of duty to a superior. He can also set his own level of ambition, whereas an officer like Spalko is probably continually fighting to maintain her position in the face of rivals.
The adventure is thrilling to be sure, and I never quite thought of Spalko's communist rivals but I agree it's a catalyst.


Montana Smith said:
Maybe gold to an alien is the equivalent of socks to men at Christmas. (And the aliens don't even wear socks!)
Well, it surely didn't fuel their Flux Capacitor!


I think it's possible Indy misinerpreted the Mayan term for gift, that it's quite possible they were asking for whoever was responsible for taking the skull, (how did THAT happen) or a sacrifice in their place.

Maybe frying someone's brain with information overload is just their way of getting a dirty job done...with clean hands.
 
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Looks like the Crystal Skull Apologists have left the building...

For you young uns' who might misunderstand the phrase, and apologist is a person who offers an argument in defense of something controversial...
 

Moedred

Administrator
Staff member
Flipping back to the third draft of Raiders, here's the complete ark scene.
No ghosts, still pretty close to von Däniken.
145 INT. THE TABERNACLE
Inside the Ark of the Covenant is a preview of the end of
the world. A light so bright, a power so fearsome, a charge
so jolting, that there is nothing in our world to compare to
it. It’s as though this magnificent golden box has been
gathering electric energy for three thousand years, waiting
for just this crack of the lid to release it all in one fast,
cleansing explosion of pure force.
Blinding arcs of light shoot out across the Tabernacle
instantly killing all the Nazis inside and turning the white
silk to flame. But it is Belloq in his obsession who takes
the full blast. His whole body seems lit by a million volt
current and, for a moment, his complete form is white, then
blue, then maybe green, but it is hard to tell because our
eyes are blinded now too. Two aspects of this ghastly,
beautiful display are somehow communicated in the chaos,
although the communication is subliminal. First, that Belloq,
in the instant of his destruction, has experienced some kind
of sublime, transcendental knowledge. If a death’s-head can
smile and look satisfied, that is how Belloq’s incandescent
face would be described. Secondly, this event is accomplished
by a sound like no other. A sound so intense and so odd and
so haunting that the suggestible among us might imagine it
were the whisper of God.
 
Moedred said:
Flipping back to the third draft of Raiders, here's the complete ark scene.
No ghosts, still pretty close to von Däniken.
You have to help me with the Däniken parallels...I only know he's an entertainer.

I'm also curious about your "ghosts" aside...
 

Montana Smith

Active member
Moedred said:
Lucas mentions flying saucers in the 1978 Raiders transcripts.

Lucas also mentions Daniken a few times in the Transcripts:

GEORGE LUCAS : One of the things of his character is that he is very skeptical, very cynical. In the beginning he is reluctant. "The Germans haven't found it, for Christ?s sake. Those guys are running all over the world being crazy. That's a real myth." He sort of doesn't believe it. It's like a wild goose chase. He isn't even sure it exists. The thing of it is that in the end they convince him to do it because they say this Professor Erich Von Daniken, or whatever, this German version of himself is the one who found it.

Our idea was that there must actually be some kind of super high-powered radio from one of Erick Von Daniken's flying saucers.

He thinks Von Daniken's first book, "Chariots of the Gods" has some stuff in it about the Ark.

If Lucas had had his way the aliens of KOTCS would probably have made an appearance in ROTLA.
 

Moedred

Administrator
Staff member
Spielberg on the obscurity of the Raiders climax:
?I was a little bit dubious about what happens when they open the ark. What actually is going to come out of the ark? There were a lot of crazy things in the script. I wasn?t sure how much we could actually get on the screen. We made a lot of it up as we were in postproduction.?

(Sorry for the drift, I really should start an Aliens in Raiders thread...)
 
Moedred said:
Spielberg on the obscurity of the Raiders climax:
(Sorry for the drift, I really should start an Aliens in Raiders thread...)

Funny, I didn't take the comment as though "Aliens" were on the table at all, simply that there were many different concepts discussed regarding realizing "The Wrath of God" on screen...

Coaching the german soldiers Kahler, Freeman and Lacey ON SET, Spielberg says "a kind of death mist, which is a mist that sort of crawls along the steps leading down from the tabernacle and surrounds everybody, and from that mist arrises apparitions."

Richard Edlund says he had to "portray the wrath of God"

So I took the comment to mean varied ways to portray the wrath of God...:D
 
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