Indy as a spy

tambourineman

New member
Thec OSS regularly recruited civilians, and people like Indy were used and were particularly useful to them. His job as a professor of archaeology meant that that he had the perfect cover, he could travel without raising suspicion. He had contacts all over the world. He knew other languages. He was fit. He was patriotic. Not to mention that he had a history of working for the government against the Nazis, he was essentially doing the same work in Raiders. I have no idea why people would have a problem with this. Historically, it fits perfectly and is completely plausible. And story-wise, it fits Indy's character and personal history perfectly.
 

Gear

New member
Kevin said:
As such, I do not feel that he would have been a "behind the lines" sort of operative. As has been mentioned, he has killed so many Nazis by 1939 that his face must have been plastered all over Germany. The Gestapo may have even had people out looking to kill him. What Nazi is going to fall for it when Indy shows up in Germany undercover?


Simple. He grows a 'stash.

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emtiem

Well-known member
James said:
But I did feel the espionage tease was consistent with Indy's character. LC makes it clear that he hates the Nazis, and his little speech to Elsa gives the impression that he has chosen a side. We also have to consider his reconcilliation with Henry Sr., and the affect that relationship would've had during wartime.

Absolutely- archaeology isn't his entire life: I have no doubt that he'd sign up as soon as possible to fight in the war. He is, after all, pretty good in a fight and has first hand experience of Nazis!
 

Indy's Fist

New member
There is another side to this issue. That is Indy was pretty fed up with the spy business near the end of WWI, he said so himself. He felt like he was being used as well as his friends & others. That aside I still think Indy would have been a spy for the US in WWII, just he would come at it in a different way.
 

Lance Quazar

Well-known member
tambourineman said:
Thec OSS regularly recruited civilians, and people like Indy were used and were particularly useful to them. His job as a professor of archaeology meant that that he had the perfect cover, he could travel without raising suspicion. He had contacts all over the world. He knew other languages. He was fit. He was patriotic. Not to mention that he had a history of working for the government against the Nazis, he was essentially doing the same work in Raiders. I have no idea why people would have a problem with this. Historically, it fits perfectly and is completely plausible. And story-wise, it fits Indy's character and personal history perfectly.

I have no problem with him working for the OSS, doing intelligence work, etc.

I don't buy that he was undercover in Berlin as a "double agent" - meaning he was undercover AS a Nazi.

Just doesn't seem to make sense, isn't consistent with his character, his history or his skill set and seems unlikely given he'd definitely be a person of interest to the Third Reich and would be well-known in many circles of Nazi government.
 

Indy's Fist

New member
Lance Quazar said:
I have no problem with him working for the OSS, doing intelligence work, etc.

I don't buy that he was undercover in Berlin as a "double agent" - meaning he was undercover AS a Nazi.

Just doesn't seem to make sense, isn't consistent with his character, his history or his skill set and seems unlikely given he'd definitely be a person of interest to the Third Reich and would be well-known in many circles of Nazi government.

Acording to dictionary.com:

double agent 
Use double agent in a Sentence
?noun 1. a person who spies on a country while pretending to spy for it.
2. a spy in the service of two rival countries, companies, etc

I bet he would have fit definition 1. He was working as a German spy but was actually spying for the US & Russia.
 

Lance Quazar

Well-known member
Indy's Fist said:
Acording to dictionary.com:

double agent 

...

I bet he would have fit definition 1. He was working as a German spy but was actually spying for the US & Russia.

How is that different than what I said? Still doesn't make sense.
 

tambourineman

New member
It does make sense. It means that Indy does not have to have been undercover as a Nazi as you suggested. He could simply have been himself, with the Nazi's thinking he was helping them spy on america but he was actually spying on them for america, or giving them false information or something like that.
 

Lance Quazar

Well-known member
tambourineman said:
It does make sense. It means that Indy does not have to have been undercover as a Nazi as you suggested. He could simply have been himself, with the Nazi's thinking he was helping them spy on america but he was actually spying on them for america, or giving them false information or something like that.

No, that really doesn't work. The Nazis would NEVER believe Indy was working for them given his history with them. Either way, the backstory doesn't make sense. It smacks of lazy writing which wasn't at all thought through.
 

tambourineman

New member
The point is that there is any number of ways that Indy could be a double agent. Its pointless to speculate without more information. But it doesnt mean he was undercover as a nazi or something like that. But since he has already done that sort of thing (in Young Indy) and speaks fluent german, its not out of the question and not too far fetched.
 

Lance Quazar

Well-known member
tambourineman said:
The point is that there is any number of ways that Indy could be a double agent. Its pointless to speculate without more information. But it doesnt mean he was undercover as a nazi or something like that. But since he has already done that sort of thing (in Young Indy) and speaks fluent german, its not out of the question and not too far fetched.

Well, respectfully, we do have all the information we need to speculate. The definition of "double agent" is pretty clear and unambiguous, as cited above.

We obviously know that the character of Indiana Jones would never have been working for anyone other than the Western Allies during WWII.

Indy says he was in OSS.

Mac says they were double agents in Berlin.

Since we have to accept that Indy was working for the US/UK, then he must have been pretending to work for someone else, as the definition of "double agent" demands.

The most obvious, logical choice is that he was pretending to work for the Nazis.

Since it is absurd to think the Nazis would believe that Indiana Jones himself was helping them openly after his vast history of fighting them, then we really have to assume he was undercover in some capacity. While this is technically "speculation", it is the only scenario which makes sense.

The only other option which is remotely plausible is that he was spying on the Russians, as the movie also references spy missions that Indy and Mac went on against the Russians. Perhaps shortly after the war. It's possible, given the dialogue from the film, but I believe far less likely than the other possibility.

The only part really open to debate is whether or not Indy working undercover as a Nazi is a dumb idea, as I contend.

Opinions vary. But there really aren't a lot of possible alternate theories to what the "double agenting" really could have meant.
 

Saber79

New member
Off topic just a little, but I think that this was influenced by real-life archaeologist Sylvanus Morley...the leading archaeologist who led expeditions to the ancient Mayan cities...

While he was there, he was recruited by the US Navy during World War I to spy on German activity in the Yucatan area. He was to document any and all Naval activity of the German fleet, as they may have been looking to construct submarine docks and ports.

I saw a documentary about him on the History channel fairly recently and was intrigued. It was cool to see someone in real-life work as a leading archaeologist and act as a spy. I immediately thought of Indy working as a spy.

Working as an archaeologist, it provided excellent cover for his spy work...all the photographic equipment present was for "documenting the ruins" all the while he was also searching for potential sub ports.

Very interesting...anyone want to read anymore...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sylvanus_Morley Enjoy! :whip:
 

Attila the Professor

Moderator
Staff member
I guess the way the posing as a double agent to the Germans thing could work is if he somehow aligned himself with them as an archaeologically interested party, pretending to be interested in helping them with art preservation or some such. Far-fetched, perhaps, but conceivable, "hey, we've fought <I>a lot</I> in the past, but now there's a war on, and I'm not happy with my people, and let's get together on some relics."

Of course, they easily could have been double agents against the Russians in Berlin, at the very end of the war, or shortly thereafter, ensuring that the Anglo-American side of the Allied effort ended up in a better position than the Soviet side. Indy, as we know, knew some Communists in the early days. He also apparently had a pal in Flensberg (in East Germany) who owed him a favor.
 

Stoo

Well-known member
Attila the Professor said:
Of course, they easily could have been double agents against the Russians in Berlin, at the very end of the war, or shortly thereafter, ensuring that the Anglo-American side of the Allied effort ended up in a better position than the Soviet side. Indy, as we know, knew some Communists in the early days. He also apparently had a pal in Flensberg (in East Germany) who owed him a favor.
This is my line of thinking as well. The film?s dialogue gives us, ?After all those years spying on the Reds?, coupled with, ?After the war, when you turned, how many names did you give the Reds??, and (from what I?ve gleaned, so far) there?s not much more information in the novel. We?re talking 20-30 missions so who knows what they were up to...

In addition to that, Mac & Indy were also involved in Pacific campaigns which might suggest covert operations in order to prevent a back-door, Commie proliferation. (Russia, China...take your pick.) SOMEWHERE, there is a precise location given for one of the Pacific missions but it eludes me at the moment! Anyone?:confused:

One small note is that his pal, Heinrich, lived in Leipzig and not Flensburg (unless I?m missing something). It would make sense that Indy was in Flensburg towards the end of the war but the Ultimate Guide puts him there c.1942. That doesn?t seem right...:eek: The mention of "like in Berlin" is an ideal scenario for counter-Russian espionage in 1944/45.

Indy & Mac were supposedly at D-Day. How?s that?:confused:

P.S. Threads about Indy in the OSS already exist but I guess we?ll just roll with this one...:p
 

tambourineman

New member
Attila the Professor said:
I guess the way the posing as a double agent to the Germans thing could work is if he somehow aligned himself with them as an archaeologically interested party, pretending to be interested in helping them with art preservation or some such. Far-fetched, perhaps, but conceivable, "hey, we've fought <I>a lot</I> in the past, but now there's a war on, and I'm not happy with my people, and let's get together on some relics."

Of course, they easily could have been double agents against the Russians in Berlin, at the very end of the war, or shortly thereafter, ensuring that the Anglo-American side of the Allied effort ended up in a better position than the Soviet side. Indy, as we know, knew some Communists in the early days. He also apparently had a pal in Flensberg (in East Germany) who owed him a favor.
I agree, I just assumed it was the Russians he was spying on to begin with. As for his motivations for turning against America (or pretending to), it could just be as simple as money. Thats how it usually worked. Nazis or Russians made Indy an offer of money to be a turncoat, he went to his superiors and they just rolled with it so they could have a guy inside the enemy camp. Usually how those things went.
 

Lance Quazar

Well-known member
Stoo said:
This is my line of thinking as well. The film?s dialogue gives us, ?After all those years spying on the Reds?, coupled with, ?After the war, when you turned, how many names did you give the Reds??, and (from what I?ve gleaned, so far) there?s not much more information in the novel. We?re talking 20-30 missions so who knows what they were up to...

In addition to that, Mac & Indy were also involved in Pacific campaigns which might suggest covert operations in order to prevent a back-door, Commie proliferation. (Russia, China...take your pick.) SOMEWHERE, there is a precise location given for one of the Pacific missions but it eludes me at the moment! Anyone?:confused:

One small note is that his pal, Heinrich, lived in Leipzig and not Flensburg (unless I?m missing something). It would make sense that Indy was in Flensburg towards the end of the war but the Ultimate Guide puts him there c.1942. That doesn?t seem right...:eek: The mention of "like in Berlin" is an ideal scenario for counter-Russian espionage in 1944/45.

Indy & Mac were supposedly at D-Day. How?s that?:confused:

P.S. Threads about Indy in the OSS already exist but I guess we?ll just roll with this one...:p

Ugh. All of those assorted wartime activities for Indy ring very, very false to me. D-Day? C'mon....

But, opinions vary...
 

Attila the Professor

Moderator
Staff member
Stoo said:
One small note is that his pal, Heinrich, lived in Leipzig and not Flensburg (unless I?m missing something). It would make sense that Indy was in Flensburg towards the end of the war but the Ultimate Guide puts him there c.1942. That doesn?t seem right...:eek: The mention of "like in Berlin" is an ideal scenario for counter-Russian espionage in 1944/45.

Yeah, you're right; Heinrich is in Leipzig. Flensburg was when there were twice as many, and they were younger.

Another possibility, and one that's vaguely suggested in the new young adult novels they're putting out - Indy had to start doing the spy activities, and continued to do so, partly for patriotic reasons but partly because the U.S. government threatened to expose his more unsavory activities in a public manner. Doubtlessly, they had a rather large file on him, even when he was with the OSS.
 
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