Does anyone pretend KOTCS didn't happen?

StoneTriple said:
To me it did. We've known for years who the kid was dealing with, so it was a nice twist seeing him get put in his place when he found out what we knew all along - that, in fact, Indy was going to be a lot help.
The words achieved that, absolutely...but to me the more stern take was putting the kid in his place. The flippant remark didn't, it brought Mutt along, (treated him more like an equal).

StoneTriple said:
It was a sort of Hitchcockian mechanism of the audience knowing more than the characters.
Sure, we were "in" on the joke.

StoneTriple said:
In this case, we knew things could get hairy any moment...
That idea has been there for the viewers since Raiders...

Attila the Professor said:
It's a solid one-liner, and a nice piece of character interaction.
To me it established Indy as the authoritarian, (the hard/wise ass from Raiders) the one used was more buddy buddy...
 

Montana Smith

Active member
Rocket Surgeon said:
Would have loved it if he fired the gun, (even if he missed).

Fire?

Definitely.

Miss?

Oh, could we really heap that much pain on the old guy?

Really, though. Can't remember who it was the other day who was writing about the 'gun gag':

ROTLA: shooting the swordsman

TOD: no gun to shoot the swordsman

TLC: shooting three with one gun

And I wondered whether the continuation in KOTCS was choosing not to shoot. It is as though Indy's reached a certain point in his life where he is taking that responsibility not to act rashly. After all, this is the modern '50s, not the wild '30s of his younger days.

That would tie in with the alteration of the tone of "Part-time" from trailer to movie.
 

michael

Well-known member
Rocket Surgeon said:
The words achieved that, absolutely...but to me the more stern take was putting the kid in his place. The flippant remark didn't, it brought Mutt along, (treated him more like an equal)

To me it established Indy as the authoritarian, (the hard/wise ass from Raiders) the one used was more buddy buddy...

Not to mention what happened right before the line. Indy coming out of nowhere to blow the dart back into the guys mouth, was a straight up meat and potatoes badass moment for the archaeologist. The execution of the line in the trailer shows to Mutt, that THIS is the sh-t I get into kid.

I think we've covered that line well enough. Here's something I would like to pretend that never happened: The "What are you, like 80?." line from Mutt. Keep that sh-t for the "Scary Movie Movies" .

It made me cringe so bad. It was a tasteless line for a cheap pop. It would've worked if we had known at that point that Mutt was Indy's son. Nobody would say something like that in real life, and yes, I'm being that guy that who compares this to real life. Think for a moment of how big of a dick you'd have to be to say something like that to someone in that same situation. It made me :sick:
 

Montana Smith

Active member
michael said:
Not to mention what happened right before the line. Indy coming out of nowhere to blow the dart back into the guys mouth, was a straight up meat and potatoes badass moment for the archaeologist. The execution of the line in the trailer shows to Mutt, that THIS is the sh-t I get into kid.

I think we've covered that line well enough. Here's something I would like to pretend that never happened: The "What are you, like 80?." line from Mutt. Keep that sh-t for the "Scary Movie Movies" .

It made me cringe so bad. It was a tasteless line for a cheap pop. It would've worked if we had known at that point that Mutt was Indy's son. Nobody would say something like that in real life, and yes, I'm being that guy that who compares this to real life. Think for a moment of how big of a dick you'd have to be to say something like that to someone in that same situation. It made me :sick:

Reminds me of a very old music hall gag: "What are you, like 80? We're in a cemetery, so you might as well not bother going home."

I think idea of it being tasteless was intended. Mutt was playing the young tough (though not very convincingly) - and displaying the ignorance of youth all too vividly.
 

michael

Well-known member
Montana Smith said:
Reminds me of a very old music hall gag: "What are you, like 80? We're in a cemetery, so you might as well not bother going home."

I think idea of it being tasteless was intended. Mutt was playing the young tough (though not very convincingly) - and displaying the ignorance of youth all too vividly.
Not familiar with the music hall gag!

I think it was more intended to poke fun at the elephant in the room of is "Harrison too old for this". And failed IMO. His age only showed in appearance, not in his ability in the events leading up to that part in Indy's house. The "damn, I thought I was closer" line is the only line we needed to poke fun with this older Indy we're watching. We saw grey hair and knew of his age, but everything else was the same. A line like that gives no credit to Marion either, she wouldn't raise a son like that.
 

Dr.Jonesy

Well-known member
michael said:
I think it was more intended to poke fun at the elephant in the room of is "Harrison too old for this". And failed IMO.

I always thought it was a great line, and a very memorable one from the film. And I remember the audience getting a kick out of it when I saw the film 3 times. So I think it worked, all in all. Like you said, the elephant in the room.

:cool:
 

Montana Smith

Active member
michael said:
I think it was more intended to poke fun at the elephant in the room of is "Harrison too old for this". And failed IMO. His age only showed in appearance, not in his ability in the events leading up to that part in Indy's house. The "damn, I thought I was closer" line is the only line we needed to poke fun with this older Indy we're watching. We saw grey hair and knew of his age, but everything else was the same. A line like that gives no credit to Marion either, she wouldn't raise a son like that.

Mutt's ignorance, though, is is also like poking the Ford finger at the audience who may think that Indy is too old. It is like the elephant in the room, a hurdle they have to get over, so they acknowledged it out loud. Then the rest of the film has the theme that age is no barrier if there's still the will to fight. With his father and Marcus gone, and loneliness hanging heavily on him, it takes the young 'punk' to jolt him back into action, so that in the end it's Indy who's telling Mutt he isn't ready to give up the fedora.
 

StoneTriple

New member
Attila the Professor said:
I think Rocket's on board with the twist, he's just saying that the particular reading of the line that was used in the film, the flip/flippant one didn't pack the same punch as the one in the trailer. It's a solid one-liner, and a nice piece of character interaction.

I agree, the trailer version is better.
 

StoneTriple

New member
michael said:
Here's something I would like to pretend that never happened: The "What are you, like 80?." line from Mutt.

I'm not crazy about it for two reasons. One is that Mutt is smarter than that. He no doubt thinks Indy is just an old school teacher, but I doubt he'd actually mistake him for an 80 year old man. 70 would have been more believable I think.

The other reason is the phrase itself - "like" 80?. To me, it comes across as very 2008ish. It would have rung more true and had just the same effect if he would have said "what are you, about 70?".

Very minor, but it's something I thought about when I first saw the film.
 

Cole

New member
Montana Smith said:
Fire?

Definitely.

Miss?

Oh, could we really heap that much pain on the old guy?

Really, though. Can't remember who it was the other day who was writing about the 'gun gag':

ROTLA: shooting the swordsman

TOD: no gun to shoot the swordsman

TLC: shooting three with one gun

And I wondered whether the continuation in KOTCS was choosing not to shoot. It is as though Indy's reached a certain point in his life where he is taking that responsibility not to act rashly. After all, this is the modern '50s, not the wild '30s of his younger days.

That would tie in with the alteration of the tone of "Part-time" from trailer to movie.
I don't doubt Spielberg/Ford/Lucas have all become a little more conscientous of gun play.......I think it comes with age. Spielberg made some particularly brash, hyper-realistic films like 'Schindler's List' and 'Saving Private Ryan.' I think more so now, he sees Indy as more of an opportunity to make a fun movie for all ages (but it's still PG-13, so lets not call it some fluffy Mickey Mouse crap, because it doesn't do that either IMO).

Don't think the shooting three guys in 'Crusade' was a continuation of that gag (I think it was a gag in and of itself)........but pulling the gun on the native was still a bad ass moment, and "part-time" was a bad ass line. I think it's one of the many moments that really put a smile on my face in the theater, and one that felt like Indiana Jones through and through.

So I don't think Indy really needed to shoot the guy to make it work........I don't go into an Indy expecting gunfire and violence per se. I don't know, maybe that's just me, but that's not really Indy to me.
 
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Cole

New member
Montana said:
I think idea of it being tasteless was intended. Mutt was playing the young tough (though not very convincingly) - and displaying the ignorance of youth all too vividly.
Agreed......I think the point of Mutt playing the tough greaser was supposed to convey a character who was a little lost (like Indy) largely because he did not have the presence of a father in his life. So it's definitely a smart-ass remark, but it's that generational gap which really makes their relationship work IMO.

Above all else, I thought it was funny. It got laughs in the theater.
 

StoneTriple

New member
Cole said:
I don't go into an Indy expecting gunfire and violence per se. I don't know, maybe that's just me, but that's not really Indy to me.

Same for me. I like that he's done it, it fits who he is, but it's not why I'm there. I'm there for the more cerebral aspects, the dialogue, the suspense.
 

michael

Well-known member
Montana Smith said:
Mutt's ignorance, though, is is also like poking the Ford finger at the audience who may think that Indy is too old. It is like the elephant in the room, a hurdle they have to get over, so they acknowledged it out loud. Then the rest of the film has the theme that age is no barrier if there's still the will to fight. With his father and Marcus gone, and loneliness hanging heavily on him, it takes the young 'punk' to jolt him back into action, so that in the end it's Indy who's telling Mutt he isn't ready to give up the fedora.
The thing is though, Indy pretty much already made up his mind on going to look for Oxley before the line was said. Yes, maybe Mutt might have jolted him, but along with the fact that he just lost his job, does he have any other option? I think the "line" has no meaning besides a cheap pop, which it obviously got. Indy doesn't even react after he says it either!, he's too "in the moment" as we should be too!

And to echo what Stone Triple said about the feeling "2008ish" is right on the money. That line belongs in Disaster Movie that was released the same year. Like I said before, if we knew Mutt was his son, it works. Where it stands now, it's tasteless and adds nothing to the scene.

*Edit: I understand the "tough greaser" build, but seriously, did he just not witness Jones climbing through a car and back onto his motorcycle in a frantic chase? You think you'd develop some sorta respect for the dude, no? If the line were to be said, it should have been used in the diner or not at all.
 
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Montana Smith

Active member
michael said:
The thing is though, Indy pretty much already made up his mind on going to look for Oxley before the line was said. Yes, maybe Mutt might have jolted him, but along with the fact that he just lost his job, does he have any other option? I think the "line" has no meaning besides a cheap pop, which it obviously got. Indy doesn't even react after he says it either!, he's too "in the moment" as we should be too!

And to echo what Stone Triple said about the feeling "2008ish" is right on the money. That line belongs in Disaster Movie that was released the same year. Like I said before, if we knew Mutt was his son, it works. Where it stands now, it's tasteless and adds nothing to the scene.

*Edit: I understand the "tough greaser" build, but seriously, did he just not witness Jones climbing through a car and back onto his motorcycle in a frantic chase? You think you'd develop some sorta respect for the dude, no? If the line were to be said, it should have been used in the diner or not at all.

If the line was misplaced, then that is the problem I have with KOTCS: misplaced things. I like the themes involved; I love the character of Indiana Jones; I love the music of John Williams. Those three things are what make an Indy movie. However, the things I don't like are the misplaced elements: some of the characters that seem to be just set decoration, or are under-developed; the character of the 1950s which became over-developed; the cheap gags like the snake pit and the monkeys; and the succession of high-level cliffhangers. For the first three positives I don't want to pretend that KOTCS didn't happen. And even amongst the negatives I can't deny the wonderful tension and absurdity created by Doom Town. Two less waterfalls might have helped - like a joke that just tries too hard to be funny. Sometimes less is more.
 

agull

Guest
Yeah... I love the character of Indiana Jones too. I'm very sad that there is no Indiana Jones in this movie. There is a man with a hat and whip but this guy is not really Indy. Indy is not superman... nobody coukld survide nuke the fridge... Indy wouldn't say "Intolerable!"...
 

Montana Smith

Active member
agull said:
Yeah... I love the character of Indiana Jones too. I'm very sad that there is no Indiana Jones in this movie. There is a man with a hat and whip but this guy is not really Indy. Indy is not superman... nobody coukld survide nuke the fridge... Indy wouldn't say "Intolerable!"...

The Indy of KOTCS isn't Superman either. He's a fallible human who has been afforded supernatural luck by his creators.

If he was Superman he wouldn't suffer from a dodgy hip or spatial misjudgment, and he wouldn't need a fridge to escape an atom bomb.

Yet, Indy's always had super-luck.

What Indy is, is a pulp character existing in a world that is not real. If you want real go and watch a documentary about Roy Chapman Andrews.

The Raiders story transcripts are very illuminating:

Spielberg — And each cliffhanger is better than the one before.

Lucas — That is the progression we have to do. It's hard to come up with. The trouble with cliff hangers is, you get somebody into something, you sort have to get them out in a plausible way. A believable way, anyway. That's another important concept of the movie — that it be totally believable. It's a spaghetti western, only it takes place in the thirties. Or it's James Bond and it takes place in the thirties. Except James Bond tends to get a little outrageous at times. We're going to take the unrealistic side of it off, and make it more like the Clint Eastwood westerns. The thing with this is, we want to make a very believable character. We want him to be extremely good at what he does, as is the Clint Eastwood character or the James Bond character. James Bond and the man with no name were very good at what they did. They were very, fast with a gun, they were very slick, they were very professional. They were Supermen.

There is the core of the issue right there: Cliffhangers necessarily get grander.

What begins as believable necessarily becomes less so as the cliffhangers become bigger. That's the nature of the formula. Yet, each cliffhanger has a solution that is plausible within the world Indy inhabits.

ROTLA was planned to be a less outrageous Bond, and more like the Spaghetti westerns of Clint Eastwood.

However, in character Indy was to be like Joe/Manco/Blondie or Bond, whom Lucas describes specifically as "Supermen" purely because they were very good at what they did. They were also imbued with a supernatural level of intuition and luck, which enabled them to survive.

Bond and the Clint character inhabit a stylistic world, as does Indy.

Fitting KOTCS into the Indiana Jones series was a challenge I set myself. At first I was in denial, and didn’t want to see Indy in the 1950s. It took two viewings to really appreciate that there were unbreakable connections.

The character of Indy was intact - he’s still believable as the character we first saw in ROTLA.

Is his world still as believable?

Well, I went back to ROTLA and thought of the anachronisms and implausibilities:

MP-38s and rocket launchers in 1936; a functional flying wing in 1936; German troops in British-controlled Egypt in 1936; an American-run bar in Nepal patronized by foreigners in 1936, a time when Nepal was closed to foreigners; Hitler showing an interest in the Ark (it would have more realistic if Himmler was instigator of that mission; Indy ‘s ever returning hat, and even keeping it during the U-Boat ride; the Hovitos couldn’t catch Indy or hit him with their arrows; the massive Anubis statue happened to be loose; a trench had to be dug under the truck as there wasn’t enough room for a man to pass beneath it.

It’s all far-fetched, and if it wasn’t, it wouldn’t be pulp.

Now fast forward to 1957/2008. With Lucas’ obsession with ‘50s culture it was inevitable that the 1950s would become a major character in KOTCS. This is the character that styles the movie. The shift we have to make is not in looking at a new Indiana Jones, but the same old Indy as an anachronism himself, a man out of place in a modern world, with new modern dangers. He tackles this brave new world the same way he tackled the old one – with reckless abandon, riding on a wave of supernatural luck.

Where Lucas and Splieberg went awry was in the maintaining the great scale of the cliffhangers, as though they felt under pressure to out-do everything that had gone before. This was at the loss of suspense and real mystery, which are trademarks where the character of Indy can truly flourish, and where he can still succeed in future films, despite his age.
 
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michael

Well-known member
Montana Smith said:
If the line was misplaced, then that is the problem I have with KOTCS: misplaced things. I like the themes involved; I love the character of Indiana Jones; I love the music of John Williams. Those three things are what make an Indy movie. However, the things I don't like are the misplaced elements: some of the characters that seem to be just set decoration, or are under-developed; the character of the 1950s which became over-developed; the cheap gags like the snake pit and the monkeys; and the succession of high-level cliffhangers. For the first three positives I don't want to pretend that KOTCS didn't happen. And even amongst the negatives I can't deny the wonderful tension and absurdity created by Doom Town. Two less waterfalls might have helped - like a joke that just tries too hard to be funny. Sometimes less is more.
It seems we have similar views on the movie.:) I was just finding something in the movie that I would like to pretend wasn't there, not the actual film. I agree with all your points in that post, too. Doom Town is one of my favorite sequences in all of the films. It was the first time I actually feared for Indy's life. He was out of his element and when the the siren went off, NOBODY knew how he was going to survive. Most importantly, the whole scene had balls, something the last act of the film lacked, severely.
 

Montana Smith

Active member
michael said:
It seems we have similar views on the movie.:) I was just finding something in the movie that I would like to pretend wasn't there, not the actual film. I agree with all your points in that post, too. Doom Town is one of my favorite sequences in all of the films. It was the first time I actually feared for Indy's life. He was out of his element and when the the siren went off, NOBODY knew how he was going to survive. Most importantly, the whole scene had balls, something the last act of the film lacked, severely.

Talking of balls, one of the funniest moments in KOTCS was the expression on Indy's face during the scrub-down after his fridge-ride. :eek:

Now who can say that Indy wasn't in the movie? It's a classic Indy moment!

:hat:
 

teampunk

Member
i just watched kingdom last night and i can honestly say i still love it. one thought that i had was that if the same movie came out in the 80's would it still get the same hate as it did now?
 
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