Return to the rightful owners instead of into a mueseum?

If Indy decided to return the Sankara stones to the villagers in India rather than sell them to a museum where they'd just "collect dust", then why didn't he plan to return the Ark of the Covenant to a Jewish synagogue and the Cross of Coronado to a Roman Catholic church rather than into a museum (granted, his deal with U.S. Army Intelligence was for them to study the Ark first, but he still believed that it'd go into Marcus' museum afterward)?

Also, what was Indy planning to do with the Cup of Christ before the Knight told him that it couldn't cross the Seal? Was he planning to simply place it in Marcus' museum as well?


-G

Indy gotta eat!

"Coronado is dead and so are all his grandchildren!"

The Cross belongs in a museum, Indy just didn't care which one. Just as long as people could see it, touch it, experience it. Something that wouldn't be possible squirreled away in the private collection of a rich jerk like Panama Hat.

"The Ark is a source of unspeakable power, and it has to be research!"

"The Ark. If it is there at Tanis....then it is something man was not meant to disturb. Death has always surrounded it. It is not of this Earth."

In the case of the Ark, one, it's, well, what Marcus says it is. A source of unspeakable destructive power. It shouldn't be given to just anyone, especially not people of the faith it originates from. They might actually, y'know, use it. Not to knock Jewish people of course but there's religious zealots amongst them as there are in any religion.

And secondly, Indy had no say in the matter. Musgrove and Eaton reneged on their deal because of the above. It's just too dangerous to do anything with it except lock it up and leave it alone.

Kooshmeister said:

"Coronado is dead and so are all his grandchildren!"

The Cross belongs in a museum, Indy just didn't care which one. Just as long as people could [...] touch it, experience it.

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In normal museums you cant do that. In most, you cannot even take photos!

Luke Skywalker said:

In normal museums you cant do that. In most, you cannot even take photos!

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I was speaking metaphorically.

While the Ark and the sacred chalice both have religious significance, the Sankara stone was the lifeblood of the village. If Indy deprived them of their "magic rock", he'd be denying them their livelihood. That's how I think of it, at least.

And glad to see you're still kickin' it after all these years, Goodsport.

HellofaSandwich said:

While the Ark and the sacred chalice both have religious significance, the Sankara stone was the lifeblood of the village. If Indy deprived them of their "magic rock", he'd be denying them their livelihood.

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Precisely. Couldn't have said it better myself. Sivalinga (what the people of Mayapore call the stone) is what brings happiness and prosperity to them. The moment it was out of Thuggee hands, life returned to Mayapore as though the land knew Sivalinga was returning.

"We knew you are coming back when life return to our village. Now you can see the miracle of the rock."

Great scene.

Goodsport said:

If Indy decided to return the Sankara stones to the villagers in India rather than sell them to a museum where they'd just "collect dust", then why didn't he plan to return the Ark of the Covenant to a Jewish synagogue and the Cross of Coronado to a Roman Catholic church rather than
into a museum (granted, his deal with U.S. Army Intelligence was for them to study the Ark first, but he still believed that it'd go into Marcus' museum afterward)?
-G

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Because we see for the first time Indy experience first hand, the power of an artifact that touches him for its ability to help people. He sees the artifact (or lack thereof) laying waste. The movie was dark but it showed the true character of Indiana Jones.

Goodsport said:

Also, what was Indy planning to do with the Cup of Christ before the Knight told him that it couldn't cross the Seal? Was he planning to simply place it in Marcus' museum as well?
-G

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All the Knight said was that the price for immortality one could not pass the seal. Indy didn't give a **** about that. Fortune and Glory!

eroc said:

Because we see for the first time Indy experience first hand, the power of an artifact that touches him for its ability to help people. He sees the artifact (or lack thereof) laying waste. The movie was dark but it showed the true character of Indiana Jones.



All the Knight said was that the price for immortality one could not pass the seal. Indy didn't give a **** about that. Fortune and Glory!

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3 years too late.

He's in it for his father in '38, and for his father's love. (Hence the "Indiana" moment.)

I always saw Indy as more treasure hunter than archaeologist. I mean, the guy regularly will destroy an entire site just to get away with one relic!

Returning the Sankara stone was obviously the right thing to do, else he would be dooming the village to almost certain death. In the same movie, Indy was willing to raid Nurhachi's tomb and give his ashes to a gangster in order to obtain the Peacock's Eye which I guarantee he planned to turn into $$$$

Bantu-Wind said:

In the same movie, Indy was willing to raid Nurhachi's tomb and give his ashes to a gangster

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A gangster who is Nurhachi's descendant. Therefore, one could argue that the ashes belong to Lao Che. Of course, one could also argue Lao Che was only claiming that Nurhachi is his ancestor, but still, it's a relic sacred to him and his family, so it's rightfully his, regardless of whether or not he's a crime lord.

The fact Lao Che gets to keep the ashes seems a nice tradeoff, anyway, considering Indy killed his oldest son.

In Temple of Doom Indy's all "Fortune and Glory." Then in Raiders and Crusade, he's "It belongs in a museum."

Well, I think the "fortune and glory" thing is misinterpreted. Short Round asks what the Sankara Stones are and Indy simply replies, "Fortune and glory, kid," which seems to merely imply that they're highly sought-after artifacts, not that he himself is interested in the monetary end of the matter. All other references to "fortune and glory" come from Willie, as I recall, and all are condescending.

I think Indy originally intended to return Sivalinga and keep the other two stones for the museum, and when they were lost in the river he was faced with the choice of returning the final one to Mayapore or putting it in a museum, and he chose to return it to the people who benefited most from it.

Yeah, but the "fortune and glory" notion is very much of a piece with the deal for the diamond, so there does seem to be a different emphasis. There's a mercenary thing going in Temple, an archaeology thing going on in Raiders, and a personal meaning thing going in Crusade. And now, knowledge in Kingdom - not sure if that's a step forward or not.

I thought the purpose of Kingdom was to get Ox back? The skull/knowledge thing is just incidental. Indy acts like it's not a big deal about it anyway since he's just been brought along for the ride.

Agent Spalko said:

I thought the purpose of Kingdom was to get Ox back? The skull/knowledge thing is just incidental. Indy acts like it's not a big deal about it anyway since he's just been brought along for the ride.

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Yeah, you're right, actually. I just jumped from motivations to themes. My bad.

Kooshmeister said:

Well, I think the "fortune and glory" thing is misinterpreted. Short Round asks what the Sankara Stones are and Indy simply replies, "Fortune and glory, kid," which seems to merely imply that they're highly sought-after artifacts, not that he himself is interested in the monetary end of the matter. All other references to "fortune and glory" come from Willie, as I recall, and all are condescending.

I think Indy originally intended to return Sivalinga and keep the other two stones for the museum, and when they were lost in the river he was faced with the choice of returning the final one to Mayapore or putting it in a museum, and he chose to return it to the people who benefited most from it.

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Indy's motivation to go to Pankot was to investigate missing children, it was a nice little bonus that one of the most famous Indian legends happened to be involved as well. In Temple of Doom, Indy hadnt learned the true aspect of what he was doing yet, he was still caught up in the fortune and glory aspect, like what he took from Fedora's example. He was looking out for number one, but at the same time, he's got a heart and morals, so he's trying to help people at the same time. Maybe he's a bit too motivated by the allure of the treasure though, hence his getting "sent to hell" as punishment for his character flaws. The hero is thrown into the pit until he can emerge a much wiser and better man. In the end, Indiana Jones got a huge life's lesson from the experience, he truly learned what these things that he chased meant to people, because till that point, he'd never seen the cultural impact of them. Most of the things he'd been after had belonged to races LONG dead, so it never connected. TOD made him realize that Fortune and Glory was still great, but the "Power" of these treasures was more important.

If you pay attention to Doom enough, you get a LOT of underlying message, thats why I love it so much.

Attila the Professor said:

Yeah, but the "fortune and glory" notion is very much of a piece with the deal for the diamond, so there does seem to be a different emphasis.

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I always thought the diamond was an artifact itself. And I think it's since been retconned into being the Peacock's Eye, so Indy was trading a relic for a relic. Note that he turns down the sack of gold coins Lao Che offers in lieu of the diamond.

Agent Spalko said:

I thought the purpose of Kingdom was to get Ox back? The skull/knowledge thing is just incidental.

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It is for the first half. But once they actually find Oxley and he's so obssessed with Skull, and Spalko basically shanghais Indy and co. to help her find Akator, then the movie becomes about the Skull.

Sam Falco said:

If you pay attention to Doom enough, you get a LOT of underlying message, thats why I love it so much.

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Very well put, Falco. And the best example of what you're talking about is in the scene immediately following the sacrifice scene, when Indy has the Sankara Stones, and is visibly awed by their power and majesty, and is ready to go, and the he hears the wailing. A friend of mine who was watching the movie with me, and who had never seen it before, said what Indy appeared to think: "Oh no, the children..." The way Indy hesitates and the finally turns and heads in the direction of the noise is a great little scene of internal conflict.

Exactly, and I think thats what makes Indy such an awesome character, he's not a perfect hero internally either. Indy's journey throughout the series has been one of self-discovery more than anything else.

Lao Che and the ashes

Lao Che was not a direct descendant of Nurhachi to be historically accurate Poo Yee was the last Manchu emperor. Lao Che would have used said ashes to gain some power into PooYee's world. within Chinese religion especially ancestor worship if you have the ashes you control the ghost of the person. That's why Lao Che had so many according to TOD book and game book