Why do you hate Willie Scott?

Attila the Professor said:
Well, there's the point. Counterpoint? Actually, screw it, I'm taking the counterpoint on this one.
:D

Attila the Professor said:
What we see here is Willie's basic human concern for others overcoming her greed,
As alluded to earlier, It's too great a stretch to attribute this twinkling of light to some triumph over a vastly ingrained and firmly established morally bankrupt woman.

Assuming so would be like calling Henry Potter offering George Bailey a job an act of contrition.

Attila the Professor said:
...leading her to make a statement that is probably a surprise even to her, decrying someone else going after the same thing she usually does.
I have a feeling you know what I think of this considering the introduction of Mr Potter.

Henry W Jones said:
Okay I got one for both sides of the debate.

1) In Willie's defense I don't think I saw anything about her punching the Temple Guard in the mine cart. It is another part where she is doing something productive and on the a*s kicking side.
No doubt she throws a punch, a really crappy one but a punch all the same.

It probably would have been more convincing if she swung the lamp on the cart into his head and funnier still if she used it to smash his fingers clinging to the back of the cart...

Henry W Jones said:
2) In Marion's defense when did she have time to thank Katanga? I doubt the Germans would be cool with her saying thanks and goodbye. They were already threatening to blow his ship up. For all we know she might have thanked him when she got the nightgown. We were not privy to that. When they left Sallah the danger was not as imminent hence time for goodbye's. Also she was on Katanga's ship for one night with little interaction I assume. While Sallah and his family hosted her in there home and was a true friend of Indy's, not a recently met acquaintance.

I'm not going to get off topic, (much;) ) defending Marion in the "Why Do You Hate Willie Scott? "!

If drifter was trying to make a point hes got to make it before I'll challenge it!
 
Montana Smith said:
Some interesting viewpoins, but so misguided.

IndyFrench said:
In Raiders, we the audience follow Indy and see the film through his eyes. The story is serious and dangerous, yet not so much that the hero is untouchable for the viewer.

However, watching Temple of Doom closely, it is clear that the audience is directed through the eyes of Willie.
...and taking one of Plinkett's better observations to heart, (and paraphrasing it) the fun of Indiana Jones is living vicariously through him...wanting to be him and do what he does.

No one wants to be Willie Scott.

IndyFrench said:
Willie's reactions to all of these situations are the sounding boards for the audience. She recognizes and reacts to the absuridty of the situations and gives the viewer a sense of scope and gravity.
She's Temple of Doom's version of a laugh track...and it's always a bad thing when a character is simply employed to tell you what you should be scared of instead of actually scaring the audience with visual cues, style but more importantly substance.

It doesn't have to be deep like an Ingmar Bergman film...that's not the point, but Willie is a device, a tool. Yes Willie is a tool.

IndyFrench said:
Indy is the straight man in the picture, the tough guy in who's hands rests the fate of many.
Big mistake lady.


IndyFrench said:
Shorty is his loyal companion, brave of heart, and rarely fazed by the trouble around him.
Great, make the kid the hero. He drives, he swings, kicks and clubs, he climbs and saves, and uh, saves the hero?

What a mess.


More?
 

Montana Smith

Active member
Rocket Surgeon said:
...but Willie is a device, a tool. Yes Willie is a tool.

That's her role. Her fate. She's a spanner, to Indy's nut. She doesn't get much chance to prove herself, in the manner of Marion. The character suffered because she's squeezed between the innocent Marion of a decade earlier, and the worldly Marion of the following year. Willie has to be annoying to make sure she can't be "the one".
 
Montana Smith said:
Why else would Indy fail to accomplish a nocturnal mission. :D

(Had to be a good reason for his stubborn behaviour).
Indy's not a Man Whore? He needs to feel something for someone? Willies internal ugliness made his willie internal?
 

Montana Smith

Active member
Rocket Surgeon said:
Indy's not a Man Whore? He needs to feel something for someone? Willies internal ugliness made his willie internal?

He's a philanderer. But a stbborn with it.

She might also have been about fifteen years too old for him.
 
Montana Smith said:
But not bumpy enough in the right places?
Oh its in all the right places and the wrong places. And they're solid, like a rock.

Brick pavers...the kind your ride turns spines to powder.
 
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They had it right at first...

405314_326271974073456_100000719686218_1040978_1776476467_n.jpg


...wonder what happened?:rolleyes:
 

Johnb02

New member
I don't really like Marion at all. She screamed way more then Willie if you think about it. Willie was the most attractive and pretty then the other girls. Elsa was to much of a bad girl for me. I like Elsa more then Marion though. Elsa was pretty, but not as much as Willie. Marion to me was the least prettiest. I'm definitley not a Marion fan. In fact, you could even call me a Marion hater.
 

Johnb02

New member
I don't like Marion at all. If you think about it, she screamed way more then Willie. Willie was the prettiest and the coolest to me. Elsa was a little to much of a bad girl for me, but I liked her better then Marion. Marion wasn pretty but not as pretty as Willie and Elsa. :gun: Marion. :cool: Elsa :D Willie





BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO MARION
 

Temple Raider

Active member
Col. Detritch said:
Exactly! And that's what makes her character work. Let's face it, Marion would have been dreadfully dull in ToD. The movie needed a victim to experience all the nightmarish horrors from a slightly more realistic and/or humorous perspective. That sure wasn't gonna be war-hardened adventurer Indiana Jones (I mean he's human but not the butt of the joke - he's our hero/anti-hero) or his orphaned, street-smart sidekick Short Round (though a terrified child could have worked quite well Shorty was not that child) or even Marion (her terror would have been plain awkward after her character establishment in the beginning of Raiders). And that's where Willie comes in. She works in this horrific setting - less so in a Raiders or LC atmosphere.

Plus might I add (with the up-most respect for women) that it would be boring and highly unrealistic if every 1930s woman Indy met was independent and tough. Willie fits the era and the stereotype these serials perpetuated. Love her or hate her, she works in context and Kate Capshaw's work ethic is irrelevant - I mean honestly, how many movies have I seen her in again? ;)

:hat:


Perfectly said on all counts (y)

I've never minded Willie at all unlike others. As someone who normally detests comic relief characters, I always found her genuinely funny and she added some nice comic relief to the otherwise extremely dark and ominous-feeling TOD, and her moments of humor IMO didn't detract from the movie. I found her to be a much more likeable character than Elsa from TLC (who I always found to be irritating and unlikeable for some reason, just something about her really grates me) and she's actually about on par with Mutt for me. Not my favorite character or most well-liked, but tolerable.
 
Willie Makes Another List!

The five most pathetic female film characters of all time

Cry, screech, billow, reapply lip gloss, stand there and do nothing ? how to be a terrible role model for women
Originally Posted by Lindy West


1. Amanda Seyfried in Red Riding Hood

Cry. Billow. Reapply lip gloss. Repeat.
The movie pits the lovely Amanda Seyfried (nubility personified/human Keane painting/tube of lip gloss made flesh) against an angry, magic, sexually charged man-wolf. After the wolf kills her sister and makes it clear he's coming for her next (wolf telepathy is involved ? don't ask questions), Seyfried's reaction is to? stand there. Wait to be rescued. Weep. Stand there some more. Quiver under the male gaze. Reapply lip gloss. Repeat. Oh, and sometimes she strides from one place to another place wearing a billowy cloak. She's so useless, in fact, that the film doesn't even let her use her feminine wiles or her sexuality as a weapon! It's just boring, old-timey, textbook damsel-in-distress.

2. That Whore in Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom

Oh, cool, a gold digger who never stops screeching? It's really empowering to know I can be anything I want to be, as long as it's either this chick or a virgin who never stops pouting.


3. The Childlike Empress in The Neverending Story


This weird bald lady literally just sits in a crystal egg and cries, waiting for some kid from another dimension to save her homeland with the power of his imagination. Worst empress ever! I'm totally voting for the Nothing in Fantasia.


4. Bella in the Twilight Series

Catherine Hardwicke strikes again! Limp bag of tears waits for marriage to have sex with her undead boyfriend; is paralysed by grief every time he goes in the other room. Bella barely even exists. You guys know it's 2011, right, Hollywood? Women can do stuff now ? it's the law!


5. Buttercup in The Princess Bride

Yes, I get that she has attitude or whatever ("You mock my pain!"), but could Buttercup maybe DO something once in a while besides brush her hair and contemplate suicide because she and her boyfriend broke up? The woman is a blue silk sausage casing stuffed with whines. The most irritating movie scene on Earth (just go with me on the superlatives here) has to be in the Fire Swamp when ? in the span of 10 minutes ? Buttercup manages to catch fire, fall in a hole and get bit on the foot by the world's most-outrunnable and asthmatic mega-rodent. And when Westley steps in to rescue her and gets ROUS fangs embedded in his shoulder (Hantavirus of Unusual Size!), she just stands there and looks concerned. The best she can muster is to pick up a stick and sort of gently prod the rat thingy's haunch. A monster is eating your true love, Buttercup! And you prod its haunch? Poke, poke? That's it? Are you sure!? Hit it in the brains, for God's sake! God, I hate Buttercup. I even hate buttercups the flowers now. I hate butter, I hate cups, I hate cups full of butter. See what you've done to me, Hollywood? I give up.


* I would like to preemptively acknowledge two things: 1) In battle, I ? Lindy West, confirmed woman ? could definitely not defeat a large supernatural wolf, a dishwasher-sized swamp rat, or even a very weak human man. A certain amount of whining would be inevitable. I get that. 2) If I were dating a pirate or shirtless warrior of some kind, I would absolutely let him do the heavy lifting in the protection-from-bodily-harm department. However, that said, I would at least try.
 

LeHah

New member
I chewed my lip over the question in this thread and came to this conclusion.

I don't mind Willie Scott. I get that they were writing a female foil to play off of Indy and Short Round, which is perfectly fine.

What I have issue with is that they wrote her TOO broadly. She screams at everything. And the other thing is (this is me sounding like a jerk) all she does is react, she never acts. Indiana Jones pushes the story along - he decides to go after the stones, he decides to fight the cultists, etc - but all she does is react to bugs, water, etc. She does nothing to push the story further; it's almost as if she's a mouthpiece for the writers so they can say "Look at this set-peice! Look at how crazy it is and how much adventure we're having!"

She's not the most obnoxious character in film (I can name a bunch of them from the last ten years that are far worse) but she's a hindrance to the ebb and fow of the story.
 
LeHah said:
What I have issue with is that they wrote her TOO broadly.

One of the things I see while mulling this stuff over is example after example of how the beards rely on the actors to flesh characters out, most recently the article Attila linked "explaining" ToD's "darkness" and the sacrifice actor's prayer anecdote.

It seems to me they wrote them all broadly and relied on them bringing their craft to the character.

You remember how Karen Allen balked at Marion's costume changes and came up with a scene...

As far as Willie goes:

IF ITS NOT ON THE PAGE ITS NOT ON THE STAGE.

She brought nothing to the role, as a matter of fact because she didn't even read the script they had to rewrite the film around her.

She sucked.

Now, judged solely on what made it to the film, she sucked.

She sucked for all the reasons you mentioned and more.
 
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