Why is a non-earth entity less believable than a religious entity?

Benraianajones

New member
Hi everyone - first of all concerning the alien. I have NOT seen the movie yet so I don't get how "goofy" it looks, if at all. So is that people's main gripe - it looks odd - as opposed to an alien included in the film? Because if it is the latter - of the problem just being there is an alien, then I don't see why not. First of all, I am not religious (doesn't mean I knock other's beliefs), and I don't especially think aliens have ever set foot on earth - though, it is possible in this possible never ending space we live in - they do exist.

Also, I see a lot of people (not especially here) saying "omg! an alien in Indy! :(" but...Indiana has always had a supernatural vibe. Also, I bet a lot of these people seeing the movie have never played "Indiana Jones and the Fate of Atlantis". It was very popular, and people even dubbed it "Indy 4" a lot of the time. That had alien links,and also psychic links - and a lot wanted it made in to a movie. I wouldn't be surprised if to a degree inspiration was taken from it, but changed to not include Atlantis. At the game's end, we saw Indiana, psychic Sophia, and the Nazis in the "God Room" wanting to become Gods and all powerful. The Nazi's try it - mutate in to horned beings and set on fire and explode - the more successful Nazi at the end, turns in to a slim alien like being - but also, explodes. (They didn't undertand its power). Also, as it seems with KOTCS - the Nazis (soviets in the film) get what they want - the God Machine - but their reward is just death, they can't comprehend it, as with Spalko. Perhaps if she asked for a down to earth request she may not have perished, but she asked to know everything, and she couldn't handle it.

A lot wanted that as a movie, and aliens were involved, so hopefully those who would have liked that as a movie, are not panning this because of the alien aspect. Indiana Jones has used an alien concept since the early 90s with this game - and I bet deep inside "dying" to used in the film.

However - if it is just the dodgy looking CGI - and not the alien aspect - you'd need not read above :)
 

DrHapgood

New member
Benraianajones said:
Also, I see a lot of people (not especially here) saying "omg! an alien in Indy! :(" but...Indiana has always had a supernatural vibe. Also, I bet a lot of these people seeing the movie have never played "Indiana Jones and the Fate of Atlantis". It was very popular, and people even dubbed it "Indy 4" a lot of the time. That had alien links,and also psychic links - and a lot wanted it made in to a movie. I wouldn't be surprised if to a degree inspiration was taken from it, but changed to not include Atlantis. At the game's end, we saw Indiana, psychic Sophia, and the Nazis in the "God Room" wanting to become Gods and all powerful. The Nazi's try it - mutate in to horned beings and set on fire and explode - the more successful Nazi at the end, turns in to a slim alien like being - but also, explodes. (They didn't undertand its power). Also, as it seems with KOTCS - the Nazis (soviets in the film) get what they want - the God Machine - but their reward is just death, they can't comprehend it, as with Spalko. Perhaps if she asked for a down to earth request she may not have perished, but she asked to know everything, and she couldn't handle it.

For Fate Of Atlantis, the alien links were only implied in the comic adaptation. IMHO, the only thing canon about the comic adaptation is that Sophia's paper on Atlantis garners her a tenured professorship; but it was really contrived when it came to the main story that the game had established.

Also, Dr. Ubberman uses the machine he actually becomes a being made of light - spirit like.

Anyway, the point being that FoA does not revolve around aliens.
 

Benraianajones

New member
No, alien links were also implied in the game, especially in Iceland and Tikal. I recall Indiana in Atlantis looking at the bones (I believe) saying also "Do you think these really are the bones of beings from another?" or something to that effect. I wish, from the sounds of KOTCS, that the alien thing was left more mysterious and ambigious, like in FOA. Are aliens involved at all? Are they not? As opposed to "It is an alien, it is from another dimension".

Yes Uberman does change in to a light spirit, but it isn't too much different from an alien when you consider its sleek thin build, and it is very alien like. Though not actually "from out of space" it becomes an entity that is non-human and essentially from another dimension (if like rumours implied in game suggestion, alien life had a hand in Atlantis) and the point being (again!) - alien associations and other-worldly power (aside from a God) within the Indiana Jones world, has been around for a long time, so it isn't like it just popped up for KOTCS. But what I do like about FOA, is that we don't physically see an alien, and the player really can decide if they believe the alien reated stories, or if they think the Atlanteans simply did this stuff themselves.

Btw DrHapgood, I like your profile's picture, Sophia was my favourite character too!
 
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AndyLGR

Active member
Great thread.

I think that the religious mythology is something that we are all taught or are aware of from an early age. I don?t believe in god, but I like the idea that there are artefacts that have strange powers, like the ark and the grail especially. Items that are buried in sacred temples and such like. I can suspend my belief for the Mcguffins if the first 3 films (although the Sankara stones are the weakest of them all), as they work well I think.

To then take that initial sacred religious artefact concept, (and religion has to play a part because all ancient societies were founded on religion), and then take it to another level and say that it could have come from an alien world is a plausible theory and that?s the limit for me, leave it at conjecture. But to then actually show an alien and a spaceship in an Indy film just doesn?t sit right to me and I think took it one step too far.

I thought they went far enough showing the alien crystal skeletons in the chamber.

But then to be honest I didn?t really grasp what was happening when they reattached the skull:

Did the skull bring that alien skeleton to life?

When the alien skeletons were then complete and re-united did that then provide the ?power? to the ship?

When the room was spinning and the alien skeletons merged to form a real alien was that just what Spalko was seeing through the eyes of the skull or was there an alien there?

The other dimension (that Ox mentioned) that the Russians got sucked in to ? I thought that was the engines of the ship or something like that.

It was a very strange ending for me and I can?t get my head around it. Firstly, why put aliens and a saucer in to an Indy film and secondly what was actually going on in the room.

I understand the era it comes from with all the men from Mars b-movies etc. But the problem that I think most people will have with this movie is ? Aliens? Flying saucers? No way.
 

Benraianajones

New member
Is it agreed the alien merging in to a live one, would have been better, had we known for a fact it was what Spalko was seeing, as a result of "knowing everything" for that brief amount of time - thus allowing her to see the true form of what was essentially behind all the power?
 

DrHapgood

New member
Benraianajones said:
No, alien links were also implied in the game, especially in Iceland and Tikal. I recall Indiana in Atlantis looking at the bones (I believe) saying also "Do you think these really are the bones of beings from another?" or something to that effect. I wish, from the sounds of KOTCS, that the alien thing was left more mysterious and ambigious, like in FOA. Are aliens involved at all? Are they not? As opposed to "It is an alien, it is from another dimension".

Yes Uberman does change in to a light spirit, but it isn't too much different from an alien when you consider its sleek thin build, and it is very alien like. Though not actually "from out of space" it becomes an entity that is non-human and essentially from another dimension (if like rumours implied in game suggestion, alien life had a hand in Atlantis) and the point being (again!) - alien associations and other-worldly power (aside from a God) within the Indiana Jones world, has been around for a long time, so it isn't like it just popped up for KOTCS. But what I do like about FOA, is that we don't physically see an alien, and the player really can decide if they believe the alien reated stories, or if they think the Atlanteans simply did this stuff themselves.

Btw DrHapgood, I like your profile's picture, Sophia was my favourite character too!

Now we're really getting off topic, but I kinda want to give my $.02 :p

The way I saw the Alien thing in FoA was it was Dr. Heimdall and Sternhart's kooky-brained idea based on the items and the bones; but once you reach Atlantis and realize that the bones belong to failed experiments of the God Machine rather than Alien beings, it basically discounts the Alien theory as nonsense which is what Indy thought all along. In the comic however Nur-Ab-Sal makes mention of horned beings that came from the sky to aid the Atlantean civilization and the God Machine was originally created to turn humans into horned beings.

And yea, going back to KotCS; towards the ending I felt like I was watching The X-Files. It really lost the Indy vibe that I grew up with :( . I thought the McGuffin was just too big for a rather simple idea.

IMHO, it wasn't the fact that Spalko was the one who asked for knowledge, but rather just that said amount of knowledge was not meant for humans. The sensory overload is what killed her. It's the same basic idea as the Ark. It was not meant to be seen by human eyes and Belloq's comment "It's beautiful" makes me think he saw something bigger than was meant for human perception.

To make a weird comparison, it's like the movie 'Dogma'. God speaks through Metatron because the voice of God is too much for human perception and simply hearing it causes human senses to overload and explode.

P.S. = Thanks on the pic. I think Sophia is the best Indy chick of them all. I'm actually wearing my Sophia Hapgood gear right now cause I went to see Indy 4 in it and have yet to stop since. If you wanna see it, check the Gear Forum :hat:
 

Benraianajones

New member
DrHapgood said:
Now we're really getting off topic, but I kinda want to give my $.02 :p

The way I saw the Alien thing in FoA was it was Dr. Heimdall and Sternhart's kooky-brained idea based on the items and the bones; but once you reach Atlantis and realize that the bones belong to failed experiments of the God Machine rather than Alien beings, it basically discounts the Alien theory as nonsense which is what Indy thought all along. In the comic however Nur-Ab-Sal makes mention of horned beings that came from the sky to aid the Atlantean civilization and the God Machine was originally created to turn humans into horned beings.

IMHO, it wasn't the fact that Spalko was the one who asked for knowledge, but rather just that said amount of knowledge was not meant for humans. The sensory overload is what killed her. It's the same basic idea as the Ark. It was not meant to be seen by human eyes and Belloq's comment "It's beautiful" makes me think he saw something bigger than was meant for human perception.


P.S. = Thanks on the pic. I think Sophia is the best Indy chick of them all. I'm actually wearing my Sophia Hapgood gear right now cause I went to see Indy 4 in it and have yet to stop since. If you wanna see it, check the Gear Forum :hat:

Yes, that is true! (Regarding FOA!). Don't you just wish KOTCS used that kind of method though? Leavng it open to speculation, rather than just saying "It is an alien- look". I've never seen the FOA comics, I'd like to though.

I agree with that, Spalko's death wasn't especially out of spite by the alien, but simply, she couldn't handle what she asked for, which was, with most Indy villians, a power more powerful than they could imagine to control. She did get her reward - but the problem is it was too powerful.

And I'll check your gear out!
 

DrHapgood

New member
Benraianajones said:
I've never seen the FOA comics, I'd like to though.

It's readily available nowadays as part of the Dark Horse Comics Indiana Jones Omnibus vol.1

Pretty cheap too. You can find it on Amazon.com

It also includes the other comic storyline featuring Sophia, "Thunder In The Orient". :D
 

NonStop

New member
In reply to the original question, I don;t know why. Scientifically speaking, aliens are more likely. I suppose, it isn't in keeping with the rest of the series. Though to be honest, the more I talk about the film, the more I think upon the second viewing the film will definitely grow on me.
 

KneelBeforeZod

New member
blueoakleyz said:
I get the feeling that a lot of people were like "Come on, an alien spaceship???"....
Which to me, is surprising (ok maybe not), because aliens are more believable, to me, than any religious entity.

I'll answer my own question though, it's probably because most people are raised believing religious things

The short answer is, because roughly 95% of the population believes in God (with much of the American population believing in a Judeo-Christian God), and far fewer believe the planet has been visited by extraterrestrials. Actual belief in alien visitation or abduction is much more of a kooky fringe belief than is a belief in God (and the accompanying power that could manifest itself through an Ark, a Grail, a flood, a plague, or whatever). That you give more credibility to alien visitation than the existence of God isn't really relevant ... the vast majority of the population would disagree.

Ultimately, the grail and ark carried more weight with me than the crystal skeletons or stones simply because I believe that the God of Judaism and Christianity is the most logically justifiable explanation for supernatural activity ... and a justification that much of the population will go along with because it jibes with their internal spiritual beliefs. The Kali Cult stuff was just comical to me -- good story, but the supernatural stuff there just didn't work for me.

The alien stuff was less supernatural and more sci-fi to me ... no religious connotation whatsoever. Thus it carries the same "supernatural" weight as Independence Day or War of the Worlds -- not as credible as Judeo-Christian supernatural behavior (i.e. Bruce Almighty, Raiders), but not as incredible as TOD or a vampire movie (for instance).

Z
 
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Vendetta08

New member
It has nothing to do with which is more believeable or not...it has everything to do with the fact that the previous films conditioned us to accept Indy always chasing after supernatural fantasy artifacts. In fact, Spielberg originally wanted a couple of sci-fi elements in Raiders but Lucas said no, he didn't want any kind of sci-fi in the Indy films. So to go from that, an entirely trilogy with religious fantasy artifacts, then go to an all out Indy film involving Aliens...and even SHOWING the aliens was just too much for some people.

In the previous films, we did not see God or Kali. But the films hinted at their existence through the power of the ark and the stones. But showing the aliens left nothing to the imagination and was rather lame.
 

ForbiddenEye

New member
For me another line that sold it was when Shia said "God doesn't look like that."

Indy: "Your God..."

I think this is right in line with all the Indy films...The Ark with Judism, The Sankara Stones with all the Hindu religons, and the Christians with the Holy Grail. This one simply centers around the Mayan/Aztec "Sun Worship"-type and the "Chariots of the Gods" ideals.

For me it's just another Indy adventure into the religious and the Paranormal, albeit with a nod to 50's Sci-Fi movies which Speilberg loves.
:hat:
 

Amdrag

New member
Why is everyone acting like there was no religious tie-in here. This was all about a religion. There God is just different then the Christian. They function every way a God does in a religion.
 

KneelBeforeZod

New member
Amdrag said:
Why is everyone acting like there was no religious tie-in here. This was all about a religion. There God is just different then the Christian. They function every way a God does in a religion.

Because alien-worship isn't an existing religion -- thus, unlike the Ark of the Covenant or the Holy Grail, it has no current religious application whatsoever. The aliens may "function" as a god in the story, but in current religious doctrine aliens and God are not interchangeable.

Its a sci-fi story, not a religious one ...

Z
 

Lao_Che

Active member
Vendetta08 said:
It has nothing to do with which is more believeable or not...it has everything to do with the fact that the previous films conditioned us to accept Indy always chasing after supernatural fantasy artifacts. In fact, Spielberg originally wanted a couple of sci-fi elements in Raiders but Lucas said no, he didn't want any kind of sci-fi in the Indy films. So to go from that, an entirely trilogy with religious fantasy artifacts, then go to an all out Indy film involving Aliens...and even SHOWING the aliens was just too much for some people.

In the previous films, we did not see God or Kali. But the films hinted at their existence through the power of the ark and the stones. But showing the aliens left nothing to the imagination and was rather lame.

That's my take. The actual alien presence was fine to me as long as it wasn't actually seen in full. Even with a hand from the corpse you get Indy there to essentially go "Pfft mutilated corpse." If some sort of comet waaay in the distance took off from the temple ruins in front of Jones and Co. I don't think as many people would have had a problem with a craft taking off.

It's a simple case of with the other films, the supernatural was hinted at but not really seen in full. There's enough room for doubt from Jones and if need be, the audience. But with Crystal Skull you get: 13 very physical alien skeletons merging into one very much alive alien at the end, then a spaceship flying away THEN a normal Oxley confirming what it is which is a far cry from a vague "don't mess with forces beyond your control" type phrase in Raiders.
 

DetectiveFork

New member
There's a good argument that the McGuffins in Indy II and Indy IV betray the worldview set up in Raiders and continued in Last Crusade. In fact, I can't really disagree with that because the artifacts from other religions and aliens do undermine the importance of the Christian artifacts.

Let's not forget, though, that the beings in Indy IV weren't space aliens; rather they were interdimensional beings. They fit more into line with what I believe "aliens" are if they actually exist, and what respected researcher J. Allen Hynek surmised after years of working for Project Blue Book and undertaking his own investigations.

I choose to view the films as having Indy uncover more and more of the big picture. The power of God in Raiders and Last Crusade is still more awe-inspiring and important than what is found in the other films. Importantly, God remains enigmatic and unseen, but his power and even goodness are felt in ways that only give the characters a brush with the divine. This glimpse, though, is exciting for the viewer. And that's what the real quest is, not to just find these artifacts, but to briefly come in contact with the mysterious power behind them. It's validation of life after death, and of there being much more than the material world. And in Last Crusade, it was more about reestablishing the father-son relationship, which was the true treasure Indy and his father gained.

The Sankara Stones in Temple of Doom were little more than a plot device to send Indy on a great adventure. They did have a touch of what the Ark of the Covenant did, coming to life and essentially saving Indy once he acknowledged his belief in them. It's harder for a Western audience to get excited about something based in Hinduism, though, of which they might have little knowledge. And Shiva isn't presented as being impressive as the Christian God. So, yes, this conflicts with the Christian-centric view of the world that might deny the validity of other religions. The only way you can rationalize it is to accept that both the Sankara Stones, the Ark of the Covenant, and the Holy Grail are part of the same divine mystery, just applicable to different cultures. The Stones represent what is good, and the magic of the Thuggees represents the bad. Temple, being set before Raiders, presents Indy as being out more for "fortune and glory," and by the end of the film he has become a hero by saving the village people. I actually really like this aspect of Temple. The only conflict is that in Raiders, Indy proclaims no belief in magic and hocus pocus. I guess he forgot all the weird crap that went down in India, and it basically is far removed from the Western mythology he is mired in in Raiders and Last Crusade, anyway. But honestly, Temple is more lightweight of a movie, not that the other two are deep examinations of society of religion, and is focused on the action. I'm thoroughly entertained by it.

Now, Kingdom of the Crystal Skull... I like that it melded together the legend of the crystal skulls, the legend of the lost city of gold, and the theories about ancient astronauts all into one movie. I don't think it conflicts with the Christian elements of the first and third movies (Hell, the pope just said aliens are possible.) in that it doesn't deal with something on that spiritual a level. It deals with something more terrestrial, although still fascinating in the way it challenges the idea of human history and development. It presents what could be the most important archaeological find of all time. The Indy movies have twice revealed that God exists, so as much as I would like to see another Christian artifact sought after, I've started to think that it was smart to go in a different direction. What Indy gained in this movie was the knowledge that the world God created has more to it than he realized, and the beings he came across were in essence the same thing he was - a learner and a teacher. Everyone is seeking answers no matter where they're from, and by extension, Indy knows more than anyone else (aside from his father and Marion, lol). He is wowed by the larger scope that the movie opens up, but at the same time builds a stronger personal life. In that way, I think the movie really did give his character what he wanted all along and was a fitting conclusion.

As for Noah's Ark, which I and others have mentioned as being a cool McGuffin for the possible next film. As cool as the search would be, what would the benefit be in finding it? I haven't come up with anything good. There was an Indy novel about it; The ending wasn't bad for the book, but not exciting enough for a film. Not that it couldn't work if they come up with something good. The Spear of Destiny, another popular suggestion, has the problem of being very similar in purpose to the Ark of the Covenant. So, I don't know what could be sought in an Indy V. What could top God and discovering life outside our world?
 
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Alienconspiracy

New member
I just thought the aliens were over the top..

The aliens were over the top but its alright, i enjoyed the movie. You guys need to understand this is just entertainment, your lives arent riding on this movie nor do they write the script personally for you. Just take the movie for what its worth and be happy we get these movies instead of 10 movies about Sex and the City and reality TV movies.....oh god, that makes me sick just thinking about it.

Technically they were dimensional travellers but thats still technically aliens.

As far as this topic.......... I believe in God, I believe God is the universe and not every little detail the bible tries to get you to believe but lets be honest, there are far more accounts of star travelling gods than there is of our god in the bible......... Native americans, tribes in africa...the dropa in china, Olmec and Mayan history, Egyptian Pharoahs, the Babylonians and finally our first civilization the sumerians and their star gods, the annanaki. If you look at it open minded you come to the same question, why are we so willing to believe an ancient book known as the bible but refuse to give any credit to 7 ancient cultures and their tales of star travellers who became gods to them?
 

KneelBeforeZod

New member
Alienconspiracy said:
If you look at it open minded you come to the same question, why are we so willing to believe an ancient book known as the bible but refuse to give any credit to 7 ancient cultures and their tales of star travellers who became gods to them?

Because there exists no physical or eyewitness evidence of the existance of any star-travellers -- the Bible can be supported by at least SOME factual evidence (including the actual existence of all the locales referenced, some of the major players, and eyewitness accounts of particular events) which cannot be produced in support of these ancient star-traveller religions.

Z
 
KneelBeforeZod said:
Because there exists no physical or eyewitness evidence of the existance of any star-travellers -- the Bible can be supported by at least SOME factual evidence (including the actual existence of all the locales referenced, some of the major players, and eyewitness accounts of particular events) which cannot be produced in support of these ancient star-traveller religions.

Z

Well, there are just as many eye-witnesses to UFO-sightings, so why should I believe one more than the other?

Actually I think the problem is actually on the contrary... religion is based on faith, and faith requires there to be NO PROOF, otherwise you would't have to "believe", since you actually "know". All the incidents happening in bilblical stories are only to be explained by the existence of a God, which isn't very scientific. The existence of aliens and UFOs on the other hand is CLEARLY a science-based issue, since it actually gives a physical shape and reason to the things happening (which doesn't work on the Ark, the Sankara Stones or the Grail). Making the aliens "interdimensional" loosens the science-thing up a little but, but having aliens be the McGuffin of an Indy-flick is the same as having the midichlorians explaining the Force: It takes the mystery out of things.

I think that's the main reason why a lot of people struggle with the alien part of the film.

I myself feel it's not any more crazy than the god-machine in "Fate of Atlantis", and I loved that one. So, except for too much CGI-usage and a few little bits here and there, I quite liked "Skull" the way it is.
 

Peacock's-Eye

New member
As an atheist, I find inter-dimensional entities as acceptable as Jehovah, Shiva or Jesus Christ. It's all mythology to have fun with in stories.

>>the Bible can be supported by at least SOME factual evidence<<
HUH?! WHAT?!?!
Sorry, no. Just because a legend takes place in a real place, includes an historical character, or an oral tradition records something forgotten & later unearthed, they do not "support" it as reality. What nonsense. The Bible is every bit as 'true' as an Indy movie. Gimme a break. Magic exists in the human imagination - nowhere else.
 
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