The Tree of Life

Pale Horse

Moderator
Staff member
Take a look at this pic I found. Moves the Tree of Life concept from theological theroy into practical archeology, doesn't it???

Ashurnasirpal%20tree%20of%20life2.JPG
:cool:
 

Deadlock

New member
*BUMP*

Because...
1. This is very cool thread.
2. Searching doesn't seem to work past the latest upgrade.
3. Pale Horse's comment in the "Phobia" thread make a LOT more sense if you read this. ;)
 

theinfiniteweird

New member
I might have mentioned this somewere in this thread already, but I'll mention it again anyway.

This idea about the Garden of Eden- when I first, for fun, typed in Indiana Jones 4 in Google back in 1999 and saw somehtings come up, my very first thought was, "He has to go tot he Garden of Eden." I didn't think about the fruit, which would be the artifact, per say. Just the garden. Still really cool concept to me.

He'd have to get past the angel and the sword. He's see "perfection". He'd see the tree, and be doing fine and all, studying it somehow, and then a serpent shows up and tempts him...serpent sounds corny and all, but think of LC, when he's reaching for the grail. We'll get this awesome scene of Indy being Indy, wandering through the garden, studying the tree, just being Indy, thgen suddenly he starts craviung it, wants power, tries to fight it, and eventually wins out. Some awesome dialogue and acting to be done there.

Anyway...just somehting I thought about long ago.
 

Moedred

Administrator
Staff member
Here's a scenario:
Scripture doesn't say how Adam died. Suppose he sensed death approaching and ventured alone back to the garden to eat from the tree of life, and took some fruit for later. Then the sword impaled him, and the great flood buried and preserved his remains.
- - - - - - - -
In the 1950's, Indy acquires dead sea scrolls containing a very detailed description in Genesis of Eden's location. He excavates there and finds:
* the skeletal remains of an 800 year old man, with smooth articulating facets where one rib should be.
* a rusted, dormant sword in his back.
* a leather pouch of seeds clutched in his bony fingers.

Soviets steal the entire find and drive north to Moscow. In Kazakhstan they stop at a mosque, and these atheists wonder if they possess a means to bypass God and acquire eternal life (or youth). They plant the seeds, and over the next 24 hours, the garden of Eden regrows containing "every tree that is pleasant to the sight." (Gen. 2:9).

(I know, lots of CGI here, but why not a fight scene among twisting, tightening vines? And Spielberg loves to feature coastal redwoods where they don't belong geographically (ET, The Lost World). What if a russkie was knocked unconscious over a sapling, and woke up hundreds of feet in the air?)

Anyway, Indy would have to get it on with the girl somewhere in the garden that night. Next day, villian finds the tree of life and eats, but the sword flashes back to life and impales him. Terrified henchman arms a nuke while Indy struggles to free the sword from the creepers. (What's another nuke test in 1950's Kazakhstan, anyway?) I know this sounds like the 'Saucer Men' script, but maybe the vertical flaming sword in the ground helps shield the blast as Indy flees. Which allows another seed to implant, yielding an undeformed Henry III nine months later. Yes, I'm a softie.
 

jjkrogs

New member
My guess, if they're sticking to Indy's age and the 1950's theme, is that it has something to do with Asia. Speilberg's already shown a willingness to explore other, more "paganist" religions with the Thugees, so no reason to think he wouldn't explore Buddism, or even Islam. The 50's saw a lot of activity in Asia, such as communist China invading Tibet, so you've A) got your religious aspect, with regard to Dalai Lama/buddist mysteries, and B) your protagonist army of the Chinese to replace Nazis. That would be my first guess. I'm not Buddist, but can anyone think of a prime "artifact" with the same significance as the Ark or Grail?

Hell, I'm still likin' the idea of the Oracle of Delphi or Atlantis, like the books. I'm pretty easy to please though, as long as it's well-written.
 
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Moedred

Administrator
Staff member
I think the Eden concept has a better chance of becoming a movie than anything so far covered by a book, comic or video game. Max McCoy called the submission process at Lucasfilm "layered in bureaucracy" ...suggesting outlines filtered all the way up to Lucas and back down again. The movie script has been passed around since the 90's, and I bet Lucas steers any Indy publisher away from what's in it.

In TheRaider's author interviews, why not ask what story elements were off limits (assuming the authors are allowed to say)?
 

roundshort

Active member
Didn't we do eternal life already? Indy has to pursue his passion, The Ark was Ravenwoods, the rocks were stupid, the cup was his dad's what is Indy's thing? To ed the series, indy has to go on his quest, I know we can argue that savign his father was his quest, but no.

Hey what about Joesph Smiths Gold tablets? We all love Morons (read under the banner of Heaven)

Two things to keep in mind (I will keep repeating these) All the women are in this one and there is supernatural, what about the River Styx?
 

Pale Horse

Moderator
Staff member
"Indy's no Morman. It's obvious, the Soviets want the Tree of Life, and they believe Indy has found it..."


Some Milton Imagery I found during research:

tree.jpg
 

Paden

Member
Just a side note to this very interesting thread. One of the proposed sites of the Garden of Eden is within the Taurus Mountains, a mountain range in southern Turkey. The entry on the mountain range at nationmaster.com states this:
Limestone has eroded to form karstic landscapes of waterfalls, underground rivers, and the largest caves of Asia.
That certainly sounds like a great site for adventure and peril, leading up to the challenges within Eden itself.
 

Joe Brody

Well-known member
Paden said:
Just a side note to this very interesting thread. One of the proposed sites of the Garden of Eden is within the Taurus Mountains, a mountain range in southern Turkey.

I'm sure the South of Spain could easily double for this locale.

Is it just me -- or do you have to have sympathy for the devil in the Milton image?
 

Pale Horse

Moderator
Staff member
If you are suggesting a certain cherubic "Peter Pan" quality, I certainly can. Milton's Paradise Lost does not vilifiy Satan and his Minions in the same way Dante represents Hell.
 

Paden

Member
I hope that it is acceptable for me to warm this thread back up. It?s easily one of the most interesting I?ve run across here, and in rereading it this morning, it spurred some thoughts regarding the themes of some of the past Indiana Jones films, as well as a plausible one (at least in my mind) for Indy IV. For purposes of this post, I?m going to be talking about the films in chronological order. Translation: Temple of Doom took place prior to Raiders and Last Crusade and isn?t going to be included in what I?m extrapolating on. ;) I am going to talk a little theology here, not from the standpoint of forcing the films to conform to a strict Biblical foundation (as I know creative license is going to be applied), but from the idea of how the movies tie in to certain Biblical concepts. Yes, the ride could get a little bumpy, so hang on.

The idea that Jones? goal could be the Garden of Eden is one that has grown on me since I first read it proposed here. The more I?ve considered it, the more sense it makes within what I regard as some of the broader themes of the series. Eden, from a Biblical standpoint is the foundation of creation, where God first placed man following His creation of the earth and all that was within it. In what is frequently referred to as the Edenic Covenant, God had made mankind stewards over all that was in the earth, animals and plants alike: man was essentially the keeper of creation. Notably, Adam and Eve enjoyed unbroken fellowship with God and access to His holy presence, as sin had not yet entered human history. The only restriction on mankind was that the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil never be eaten. In essence, Eden was creation as God intended it to be, unsoiled by mankind?s rebellion. Of course, ultimately the serpent is able to deceive Eve, and through her Adam, into breaking God?s command, sin breaks man?s relationship with God, and the first covenant in broken. Man is forced out of the Garden.

Next God forges a covenant with Abraham, referred to as the Abramic Covenant, in which God promises to place His chosen people, the children of Israel (Jacob), in a land flowing with milk and honey. It takes some generations to see the covenant fulfilled, but it begins with the exodus of the Israelites from Egypt under the leadership of Moses. One key development during this time is the establishment of the tabernacle, where the Ark of the Covenant, crafted according to God?s instructions, is kept and represents the presence of God with His people. Throughout the exodus and into the conquest of Canaan, which is led by Joshua, God passes judgment on those nations that persist in wickedness and reject Him. Even the generation of Israelites that followed Moses out of Egypt are barred from entering Canaan due to their unbelief.

The New Covenant, established by Christ, answers the problem of sin. Luke 22:20: ?This cup is the new covenant in my blood, poured out for you.? God?s Law, perfect and holy, cannot be fulfilled by imperfect man. Thus Christ fulfills the Law through a perfect life, and through His sacrificial death and resurrection, is able to offer man forgiveness of sin and reconciliation with God, restoring the fellowship that was lost at the Garden. In point of fact, Christ?s triumph over sin is first prophesied in the wake of the sin in the Garden (Genesis 3:15).

Now, to consider the Indiana Jones films in relation to the above, Jones has had interaction with artifacts significantly tied to two of the covenants named. The Ark of the Covenant is one of the central artifacts related to the fulfillment of the Abramic Covenant, and the Holy Grail is associated with Christ and the Last Supper, where He declared the establishment of the new covenant of grace. Now to interject Eden as central to the fourth Indiana Jones film would have Indy find an artifact/place that was associated with the first covenant, made at the onset of creation. The critical observer will notice that Jones has met with the covenants in their chronological order, until now, where this last prize is apparently from a period that precedes all of the others. But does it?

As already noted in this thread, the Tree of Life is mentioned prominently at the close of the Book of Revelation. ?Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations.? (Revelation 22:1-2) ?Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city.? (Revelation 22:14) A central part of the prophecy of Revelation is the fact that God remakes earth, creating a new earth that conforms to His original design: free of sin and corruption. In other words, Eden is restored and the earth becomes a place where man is able once more to have unbroken fellowship with God. In considering how Eden might relate to Indiana Jones thematically, I think it is this aspect of Eden that is relevant to Indiana?s experience.

So how does all this talk of covenants tie into the Indiana Jones films? I see it as follows:

Raiders of the Lost Ark: (Judgment) Jones is skeptical of the existence of the supernatural, (?Who knows?lightning?fire?the power of God.?) but is aware of its Biblical significance. Ultimately, those that are proud (Belloq, the Nazis) and would seek to manipulate power for their own selfish/evil ends are destroyed by the power of God, manifested through the Ark. Jones, who responds in reverence (Thank you, Deadlock ) is spared, and has a different respect for the Ark and the Power behind it.

Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade: (Forgiveness/Reconciliation) Through the quest for the Holy Grail, the past bitterness between Jones and his father is forgiven and their relationship is restored. Or, to look at it from a certain scriptural slant, the prodigal son returns to the father.

Indy IV: (Restoration) Jones, through his quest for Eden and another encounter with the supernatural is brought full circle, gaining something from the experience that enables him to come to peace with his life and the decisions, good and bad, that he has made. In settling with his past, he is afforded a new beginning.

Perhaps I?m drawing far too much into all of it (I have a bad tendency to do that at times), but as I considered it this morning, it made a lot of sense. :)

Oh, and for the record, I like the idea of the ambiguous ending, ala Shane.
 

indyt

Active member
You probably are going to ridiculed a bit for your religious themes and ideas for the next movie Paden, but I love your ideas. I hope the next movie is based on another Biblical artifact or concept and I do think the tree of life plot would make a great Indy movie. :D
 

TombReader

New member
Possibly TOJ,but I think that Paden has made the best case yet for the inclusion of Eden in IJ4.As the last covenant,it makes a fitting quest for Jones at this point in his life.
 

Moedred

Administrator
Staff member
"IJ& the First Covenant" would be perfect to follow "Last Crusade." The tree described in Revelations sounds like the apple tree Luther Burbank grafted together at his CA home. I'm still for a plot where the garden is replanted from tree of life seeds and regrown in a day, like in Genesis. But the flaming sword should be the McGuffin.
 

Pale Horse

Moderator
Staff member
Moedred said:
My suggestion back on the epic Tree of Life thread - which I wish someone would revive - was that the Soviets regrow the garden in Kazakhstan in 24 hours using ancient seeds from the tree, then nuke it when things get supernatural. Better than a trip to Aetherium.


You're wish is my command. Shameless plug for a re-read of a thread that never strays.
 
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