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Old 01-19-2010, 01:57 AM   #51
lairdo
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Thanks Montana for listening to the segment, and I'm glad you found the ideas interesting. I don't think I would go all the way to suggest that the entire series is meant to be seen in this light of tall tales. However, for the episodes that do have an Old Indy (or even 50 year old Indy in Chicago), it is perfectly valid to suggest that he has embellished them. The films don't have the wrappers, so I wouldn't put them in the same category. And as I mention on the Podcast but don't explain all that well, in London, Old Indy does see Vickie again. If you haven't seen that segment (I know Stoo has put them up on Youtube), Old Indy hears "Deeds Not Words" spoken from offscreen at the end of the show and that's exactly what Vickie has been saying all episode. And of course, it turns out to be her 70 years later. So, there we have a flashback that ends with a character appearing, and it actually validates the episode. Of course, Indy still could have embellished all the details.

But what I do think you hit upon is how George thinks about these stories. In many ways, he was most inspired by Joseph Campbell. There is a great documentary with Bill Moyer interviewing Campbell at Skywalker Ranch from the late 80's just before Campbell died. They talk about Star Wars and Indy a bit. I'll have to dig it up and do a review for the Indycast.

In fact, mythology was so important to George, that the whole Luke & Leia saga is tied to old myths. My film teacher in high school who was a great inspiration in my life guessed what happened in Jedi before he saw it. I asked how he knew Leia was Luke's sister, and he said it was because he knew mythology.

One last thing to think about - the Paris 1919 episode has a newsreel opening which could actually argue for that makes Indy really part of history.

Best,

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Old 01-19-2010, 02:20 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by lairdo
Thanks Montana for listening to the segment, and I'm glad you found the ideas interesting. I don't think I would go all the way to suggest that the entire series is meant to be seen in this light of tall tales. However, for the episodes that do have an Old Indy (or even 50 year old Indy in Chicago), it is perfectly valid to suggest that he has embellished them. The films don't have the wrappers, so I wouldn't put them in the same category.

I agree that it's a big leap to suddenly view the movies, TV series, books, comics etc as all the result of an old man's active imagination! But the idea occurred to me as I was writing the post above a little while ago. I like the idea of Indy being part of a real chronology, and events falling neatly into place, and whilst the tall story element would explain a lot of inexplicable events and coincidences (the miraculous escapes, the chance meetings with so many important personalities etc) it does take away a layer of depth, leaving behind just hollow inventions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lairdo
But what I do think you hit upon is how George thinks about these stories. In many ways, he was most inspired by Joseph Campbell. There is a great documentary with Bill Moyer interviewing Campbell at Skywalker Ranch from the late 80's just before Campbell died. They talk about Star Wars and Indy a bit. I'll have to dig it up and do a review for the Indycast.

Definitely do that, Laird. I, for one, am always interested in discovering the ideas that lie behind stories.

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Originally Posted by lairdo
In fact, mythology was so important to George, that the whole Luke & Leia saga is tied to old myths. My film teacher in high school who was a great inspiration in my life guessed what happened in Jedi before he saw it. I asked how he knew Leia was Luke's sister, and he said it was because he knew mythology.

Yes, it's the strength of the embedded myths that make Star Wars such a powerful and enduring story. I've forgotten much of what I read on the mythology, but remember something about the significance of losing hands.

Indy is a mythic character. His adventures are larger than life, and if they aren't merely tall tales, I view him as occupying a world that isn't our own, one in which history has taken a slightly different path, and where physics operate differently. A lost world of supernatural adventure that we can no longer attain, similar to the golden age that the ancient Greeks looked back on, in which gods, demi-gods and heroes walked the earth.
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Old 01-19-2010, 09:05 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Montana Smith
- but seeing 'Masks/Transylvania' in its original context as a ghost story gave it the option of being one of Indy's tall stories, and therefore better placed within the Young Indy series.

I hadn't thought of it in this way because I never saw the bookends...

Quote:
Originally Posted by lairdo
I don't think I would go all the way to suggest that the entire series is meant to be seen in this light of tall tales...

Since listening to your stories, I'm getting the distinct impression that while it has that common narrative thread, they each seem to be unique stand alone adventures. I read about the writers conferences recently and though they collaborated somewhat, they were all driven, (and picked) to tell the stories with their own unique voices/backgrounds, (which I'm sure George pared down)

Campbell on Indy sounds interesting.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Montana Smith
I agree that it's a big leap to suddenly view the movies, TV series, books, comics etc as all the result of an old man's active imagination! But the idea occurred to me as I was writing the post above a little while ago. I like the idea of Indy being part of a real chronology, and events falling neatly into place, and whilst the tall story element would explain a lot of inexplicable events and coincidences (the miraculous escapes, the chance meetings with so many important personalities etc) it does take away a layer of depth, leaving behind just hollow inventions.

You could say they "tall tales" parts of the story could be embellished or simply honestly perceived, (who knows what you're really seeing when you're "scared out of your wits"). To understand he was one a teacher and maybe trying to recapture a little of the magic of his youth, (the great unknown) the bookends really ARE indispensible.

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Old 01-19-2010, 09:42 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by Rocket Surgeon
You could say they "tall tales" parts of the story could be embellished or simply honestly perceived, (who knows what you're really seeing when you're "scared out of your wits"). To understand he was one a teacher and maybe trying to recapture a little of the magic of his youth, (the great unknown) the bookends really ARE indispensible.

I finished watching all the episodes of Young Indy (all three volumes) this morning, and the ones that stand out as different are 'Masks/Transylvania' and the slapstick/absurd Kafka episode. Without the benefit of the bookends the viewer doesn't get the chance to decide whether these ought to be seen as part of Indy's history, or whether they are lessons for the kids that Indy tries to educate.

The only bookend that remains is Harrison Ford in 'Mystery of the Blues', and that's kind of a special episode that can be slotted neatly into the chronology before KOTCS (assuming that Indy let his hair and beard grow longer in 1950 cos it was cold!)
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Old 01-19-2010, 07:12 PM   #55
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Regarding Indy's beard, I'm sure you know, but just in case, it's because he was filming the fugitive at the time. And the reason it's in Wyoming is because he was home from filming in Chicago and that was part of the deal for letting him be in the show.

As I recall, NY 1920 never had any bookends, so that on DVD is the same as it was aired. And of course anything after season 2 that aired on the Family Channel (like Travels with Father and the Attack of the Hawkman) also never had bookends.

I've looked at some of StooTV, but I am not sure if they are complete. I am going to go through my copies of the show made at the time we finished the broadcast versions to check. It's one of those things on my list...

I like your idea Montana of the parallel but slightly different reality. That's a neat place to fit in Indy. I would extend that to the books and comics to some extent too and that their realities aren't identical to the shows and movies. At least we don't have a lot of Retconning going on.
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Old 01-20-2010, 05:01 AM   #56
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I have only just seen the episode, and wasn't very happy with it originally. But having read about the bookends here, that does indeed place it in a very different light.

Makes me feel a whole lot better about the episode.

I agree with Montana as well, Indy takes place in a world of it's own. Didn't the West End Games roleplaying version mention something like that as well?
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Old 01-20-2010, 09:45 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lairdo
As I recall, NY 1920 never had any bookends, so that on DVD is the same as it was aired.

This is true in the US, but there were bookends that aired in Europe. It was broadcast there as two episodes. You can find the bookends in Chapter 7 of the Old Indy Chronicles on StooTV.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lairdo
I've looked at some of StooTV, but I am not sure if they are complete. I am going to go through my copies of the show made at the time we finished the broadcast versions to check. It's one of those things on my list...

StooTV is almost complete. I think there's only one (or two?) episodes left which Stoo hasn't gotten to yet. Note that it's not just a collection of bookends, but Stoo edited them together to made "episodes" of Old Indy's adventures. There's often more than one set of bookends in an "episode". So for example, Chapter 7 starts out with Indy's visit to a Manhattan museum where he recounts his adventure in Petrograd, then he continues on to a Broadway theather to take in a show. I'm sure Stoo can explain what he's aiming for better than I.

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Old 01-20-2010, 01:38 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joosse
I agree with Montana as well, Indy takes place in a world of it's own. Didn't the West End Games roleplaying version mention something like that as well?

West End Game's 'The World of Indiana Jones' refers to the movie serials of the 1930s as being "...all about escape...America and much of the rest of the world was in the grip of a Depression and people longed for an escape from their problems. They found them in the thrills of the movie serial..."

Escapist entertainment conjures up a world of opportunity, just as the Greeks longed for a lost golden age (that never really existed, of course).
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Old 01-20-2010, 02:27 PM   #59
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I like it.
It's diferent from the other episodes, but it's good.
The first time I watched it I was surprised, I didn't expect a scary episode like that in the series.
I didn't find it out of place, Indy has encounters with a lot of supernatural creatures and artifacts, there are the zombies in the Army of the Dead, the ghosts in Raiders of the Lost Ark, the Dragon in Emperor's Tomb (and the other Dragon in the marvel comic "Dragon by the Tail"), the blood of Kali that turned people in Thugge, and much more.
It was indeed over the top for a series that was aimed at children, but I like the episode.
And it's a interesting conception of a Vampire, as someone (don't remeber who) already said.
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Old 01-22-2010, 01:01 PM   #60
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Was this one directed by Dutch director Dick Maas?
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Old 01-22-2010, 01:25 PM   #61
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He did direct it, yes.
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Old 01-22-2010, 01:54 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Junior Jones
This is true in the US, but there were bookends that aired in Europe. It was broadcast there as two episodes. You can find the bookends in Chapter 7 of the Old Indy Chronicles on StooTV.
Also in Canada, "Scandal" was shown as a 2 hr. film WITH both sets of bookends (using slightly different edits). But that's a whole other topic...The "Transylvania" bookends are Part 12.
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Phil Anderson
(I'm going to try to remember to start signing my posts so as not to be confused with the other JuniorJones with no space.)
Now that JuniorJones (w/o the space) has an avatar it may be easier for people. I knew the difference, anyway.

Re: Your explanation about my aim with the Old Indy stuff, yes, you're exactly correct except that there are *3* more left to go. Since there's a lot of new people here, check out this thread if you're interested: The Old Indiana Jones Chronicles
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Originally Posted by Joosse
Was this one directed by Dutch director Dick Maas?
Yes!

@Laird: On the latest IndyCast you mentioned that you thought "Transylvania" was one of the weaker episodes which surprised me. I love it.

In the late '90s, I made a trade for the 4 Euro episodes on VHS taped from the Austrian channel, ORF1. Instead of dates at the beginnings, they have titles. This episode was called, "Der Fürst des Schreckens" ("The Prince of Terror"!)

"Oganga" may be the clear favourite amongst most fans but it's interesting that "Transylvania" generates so much discussion and is still being talked about...because "there is only one thing in the world worse than being talked about and that is..."
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Old 03-16-2010, 08:13 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by Montana Smith
It appears quite suddenly, as if from nowhere, and is as absurd as the Kafka episode.

The Kafka episode, however, was supposed to absurd.

I also just caught up to the Masks of Evil episode/movie/whatever, and I have to concur: It's the weakest of the lot so far. Indy running around the streets of Constantinople shouting "Where's the document?!" is almost as groan inducing as Spring Break Adventure. "Golly gee, they got guns!"

I primarily have issue with the Constantinople bit. In what should've been a rousing bit of television, Ataturk gets shoehorned into yet another trite spy-lite adventure. That's all Lucas & Co. could think to do with one of the most dynamic figures of the Twentieth Century? I get the impression that they were phoning it in, and trying to extend the "war years" as long as possible. Indy catching up with the Father of all Turks during the Turkish Civil War would've been far more interesting.

And I won't even comment on the Dracula bit.
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Old 03-17-2010, 07:32 AM   #64
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Wow, Saboteur. Here is where our tastes clearly diverge because these are some of my favourite episodes. You didn't like Bob Peck's interpretation of Vlad?

For me, the Istanbul episode stands out from the rest because it's one of the few which is played straight and doesn't contain any humour. Re: Ataturk being underused. Sure, the viewer doesn't get a sense of who he was or what he accomplished but sometimes Indy brushes with famous people are just fleeting moments.
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Old 03-19-2010, 11:13 PM   #65
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Wow, Saboteur. Here is where our tastes clearly diverge because these are some of my favourite episodes.

Unfortunately, yes, in this case our tastes do diverge. I wanted to like them, but both fell on their face in terms of execution.

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Originally Posted by Stoo
You didn't like Bob Peck's interpretation of Vlad?

Yes, but I didn't like having the incisors as his fangs. He reminded me of a shuffling rat at times.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoo
For me, the Istanbul episode stands out from the rest because it's one of the few which is played straight and doesn't contain any humour.


I really wish they would've called it "Constantinople". The city wasn't renamed "Istanbul" until 1923, and the founding of the Turkish Republic by Ataturk. In my book, that's a fairly significant lapse. Two minutes of dialogue could've remedied any resulting confusion.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoo
Re: Ataturk being underused. Sure, the viewer doesn't get a sense of who he was or what he accomplished but sometimes Indy brushes with famous people are just fleeting moments.

I don't mind the fleeting appearance. They could've done so much more with that appearance, however, if they had adjusted the timetable to post-WWI and made an excellent point about colonialism & nationalism in the process. But more importantly, SPF can't emote; he was trying to achieve pathos, and couldn't do it. I spent a lot of time laughing when I shouldn't have been.

The one perk, however, of the episode was seeing a young Peter Firth. He would later go on to play Harry in MI:5/Spooks. Check it out if you haven't seen it.

And for all of his wartime experience, Indy is seemingly unaffected by it all. You'd think he'd be slightly more cynical after four years of warfare.
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Old 03-20-2010, 01:18 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by Le Saboteur
I really wish they would've called it "Constantinople". The city wasn't renamed "Istanbul" until 1923...

I actually suggested that, but George wanted the newer name. The first cut we got actually said "Istambul," which I also pointed out was not the correct US spelling although it is sometimes used outside the US.

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Old 03-20-2010, 02:16 AM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lairdo
I actually suggested that, but George wanted the newer name. The first cut we got actually said "Istambul," which I also pointed out was not the correct US spelling although it is sometimes used outside the US.

Interesting. I've seen that variant before, but would've preferred that they use "Stamboul."
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Old 03-20-2010, 05:59 AM   #68
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Very interesting indeed!

But if you look at it as a story told by an older Indy looking back, the name Istanbul does make sense.

Allthough I too would have preferred Constantinople.

Before I realised it had been changed I spent hours pouring over maps as a child, trying to find out where Constantinople actually was...
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Old 03-20-2010, 09:06 AM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joosse
But if you look at it as a story told by an older Indy looking back, the name Istanbul does make sense.

Yes, that's true about the perspective. However, British East Africa is the name for the episode when Indy is in Africa. Of course today that is Kenya. Similarly Congo would be the modern name for the other Africa episodes. I guess Transylvania is correct from either perspective since there still is that region of Romania. Peking 1910 was used as well instead of the now accepted Beijing. (Heck, I remember growing up and it being Peking!)

So, I think Istanbul is just an inconsistency with how the other shows are named.
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Old 03-20-2010, 10:47 AM   #70
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I agree that it is an inconsistancy. Like I said, I too would have preferered Constantinople.

Or even 'Ottoman Empire' if we are going to stay in the same tone and be as broad as 'British East Africa'. But perhaps 'Anatolia' would have been best.

I was just trying to argue the point of why he wanted it to be called Istanbul.

It may also have had to do with the fact that most people in the intended audience would not know where the Ottoman Empire or Anatolia were, but they would know where Istanbul was.
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Old 03-20-2010, 12:59 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joosse
But if you look at it as a story told by an older Indy looking back, the name Istanbul does make sense.

Except that you can't. Old Indy has been jettisoned, and without prior knowledge of his existence the viewer is left to assume that these are actual events that they're experiencing in the third-person limited sense

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joose
Before I realised it had been changed I spent hours pouring over maps as a child, trying to find out where Constantinople actually was...

You and I both! Except I inherited an atlas from my great-great grandmother from the turn-of-the-century that still calls it Constantinople!
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Old 03-20-2010, 01:03 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by Le Saboteur
Yes, but I didn't like having the incisors as his fangs. He reminded me of a shuffling rat at times.
Oh, I like those fangs because they are Nosferatu-style and not the typical kind that are often depitcted.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Saboteur
I really wish they would've called it "Constantinople". The city wasn't renamed "Istanbul" until 1923, and the founding of the Turkish Republic by Ataturk. In my book, that's a fairly significant lapse. Two minutes of dialogue could've remedied any resulting confusion.
You probably know more about this than I but isn't the 1923 date just the "official" change? It's my understanding that people were already calling it Istanbul before 1923 since it literally means, "In the city".

Here' an interesting tidbit: The boat trip "red line montage" in "Travels With Father" was modified for the DVD! Istanbul is marked on the map in the TV version but changed to Constantinople. An extra stop in Greece was also added. So, the difference in the map sequence goes like this:

T.V.: Odessa > Istanbul > Athens
DVD: Odessa > Constantinople > Thessalonike > Athens

Since this modification was made and all the title/date cards were removed from the VHS/DVDs, the 1st half of "Masks of Evil" doesn't necessarily take place in "Istanbul" anymore.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Saboteur
The one perk, however, of the episode was seeing a young Peter Firth. He would later go on to play Harry in MI:5/Spooks. Check it out if you haven't seen it.
"Young" Peter Firth?! He's OLD in this episode! You have to see "Aces High" from 1976 where he stars with Malcolm McDowell. He's practically a kid! (It's also one of the films that was raided for footage to use in YIJC. Loads of shots from "Hawkmen" are taken from it. See post #19 from this thread: References to other films/TV shows in YI. ) I've never seen "Spooks" but will check it out.
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Old 03-20-2010, 01:05 PM   #73
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(Heck, I remember growing up and it being Peking!)
Same here. Heck, I still say Peking, The Orient, Bombay, Ceylon, Rhodesia, etc.

Double post...Ooops!
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Old 03-20-2010, 02:55 PM   #74
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And don't forget Burma!

(Plus all the Balkan countries now.)
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Old 03-20-2010, 03:45 PM   #75
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...and Czechoslovakia, which came and went. And Siam.
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