Obama's speech to Muslims

monkey

Guest
Interesting conversation.

I see that there are still Neo-Conservatives blithering on with the "Terrorism" nonsense. "They want to kill us all!!" "They hate Freedom!!" "They hate our way of life!" Yada-yada-yada.

I guess it will take some time for the brainwashing to wear off. For some it will unfortunately never wear off.

But I also see though that there are some True Conservatives here ...Rocket Surgeon, you seem to be a True Conservative. You probably would be surprised by how much we probably agree on. In some ways I consider myself to be a True Conservative........just maybe a bit further to the Right.

But then there are some idiots who see the world in only two colors: GEORGE BUSH, and LIBERALS; Nothing else, nothing in between. If you don't agree with torturing people, lying to the American people, shredding the Constitution, and needlessly sending America's best young men and women to die tin a War of Choice for the interests of a Foreign Country, then you are a ..........."LIBERAL".

Don't some idiots here realize that Everything the Bush Administration accomplished, enacted, created, fomented, achieved, and stood for was ultimately the most UN-AMERICAN agenda you could imagine?

They dragged America through the mud! They served a Foreign Power over the interests of America! They disregarded, disrespected, and subverted the Constitution of the United States of America. I don't know about anyone else here, but I swore an oath to uphold and defend, with my life, the Constitution of the United States of America against all enemies, Foreign and Domestic. I take that oath seriously.

When I am referred to as a "Liberal" I can only chuckle,.....

The fact is that President Obama is the Scalpel that is needed to remove the cancerous tumor that George Bush implanted in America. He is the right man, at the right time, in the right place.

Whether one fully agrees with each and every one of Obama's economic policies does not change the fact that President Obama's current actions on the World Stage is having an ENORMOUSLY positive effect. His speech to Muslims last night was an seminal event that I think will be seen as one of the more important speeches in recent history.
 

Le Saboteur

Active member
Hmm...

It seems that the "enjoyment" of Obama's speech remains riven among party lines.


But without going too far into the politics, Obama's speech can be summed up as this: The most powerful man in the world is admitting US culpability to a significant event in the region. It was wrong, and he's laid out a general road map to rebuilding/strengthening/whatever the US's ties in the region. Gone is the emphasis on gas & oil extraction, and a basis on those ideals that which the US is supposed to stand for.
 
monkey said:
The fact is that President Obama is the Scalpel that is needed to remove the cancerous tumor that George Bush implanted in America. He is the right man, at the right time, in the right place.

Whether one fully agrees with each and every one of Obama's economic policies does not change the fact that President Obama's current actions on the World Stage is having an ENORMOUSLY positive effect.

When evaluating Obama's speeches, try to keep in mind the pie in the sky promises he made to get elected. As mentioned before, no special interests, lobbyists in the his administration, and a "transparent" administration at that. The cornerstone of his debate with Hilary Clinton was lambasting her lack of experience, specifically foreign policy. Yet he made her Secretary of State.

Bush was a nightmare but keep in mind Bubba had Bin Ladden in his grasp and let him go. The first Trade Center bombing was during the Clinton administration and the last was a few months after.

Bush didn't implant the tumor, it was there...trouble is, he still fed it greasy food, lit it's cigarettes and took it for long drives under the power lines to the nuclear power plant.

Monkey I'm sure we would have quite a conversation around a campfire!

Obama hasn't DONE anything but talk. So I would change one word in your post...(the one in bold face).

Diplomacy is the first step, he's begun the journey...delivering is a different matter.

Only time will tell...and the victors will write the story
 

monkey

Guest
Rocket Surgeon said:
When evaluating Obama's speeches, try to keep in mind the pie in the sky promises he made to get elected. As mentioned before, no special interests, lobbyists in the his administration, and a "transparent" administration at that. The cornerstone of his debate with Hilary Clinton was lambasting her lack of experience, specifically foreign policy. Yet he made her Secretary of State.

Bush was a nightmare but keep in mind Bubba had Bin Ladden in his grasp and let him go. The first Trade Center bombing was during the Clinton administration and the last was a few months after.

Bush didn't implant the tumor, it was there...trouble is, he still fed it greasy food, lit it's cigarettes and took it for long drives under the power lines to the nuclear power plant.

Monkey I'm sure we would have quite a conversation around a campfire!

Obama hasn't DONE anything but talk. So I would change one word in your post...(the one in bold face).

Diplomacy is the first step, he's begun the journey...delivering is a different matter.

Only time will tell...and the victors will write the story

Rocket Surgeon, that was an OUTSTANDING post!!

You made me actually laugh out loud for real with your:

"Bush didn't implant the tumor, it was there...trouble is, he still fed it greasy food, lit it's cigarettes and took it for long drives under the power lines to the nuclear power plant."

That was cool, and really funny! You have a talent for writing.

Not only do we probably share a lot of common opinions, we also probably share a similar sarcastic sense of humor.

And I'm sure we would have some great conversations around a campfire. I'm there man. Just bring some beer. We'll figure out all the world's problems before we finish the 12 pack ( I don't know,...might take a case).

I am obviously no fan of Dubbya, but neither am I a fan of Bubba.

16 years of bad Presidency might perhaps inflate Obama a bit, but nonetheless, he is at the very least, the best President in the last 17 years, and Number 1 of 3 of the last 3 Presidents.

I support him.

Until he comes to take away my guns! Then it's a different story.
 
monkey said:
Not only do we probably share a lot of common opinions, we also probably share a similar sarcastic sense of humor. ...before we finish the 12 pack ( I don't know,...might take a case). I am obviously no fan of Dubbya, but neither am I a fan of Bubba.16 years of bad Presidency might perhaps inflate Obama a bit, but nonetheless, he is at the very least, the best President in the last 17 years, and Number 1 of 3 of the last 3 Presidents. I support him.Until he comes to take away my guns! Then it's a different story.

Thanks...forgot to mention they were holding "hands" in the car, (make that a truck).
We should each bring a case and a bottle, (mine's Jameson)...you never know when friends might show up. Maybe some steamed spiced shrimp, (bout 5 lbs will do). You might not want to be around me the next morning though!

I support him as well and have nothing but the highest hopes for a successful administration...( in my best Happy Gilmour voice) I just hate that Nancy Pelosi! ( Clinton just can't hide how patronizing and fake she is...and don't get me started on Barney Fife, I mean Frank)

Yeah! good luck getting my guns!
 

Short Round

New member
monkey said:
Interesting conversation.

I see that there are still Neo-Conservatives blithering on with the "Terrorism" nonsense. "They want to kill us all!!" "They hate Freedom!!" "They hate our way of life!" Yada-yada-yada.

I guess it will take some time for the brainwashing to wear off. For some it will unfortunately never wear off.

But I also see though that there are some True Conservatives here ...Rocket Surgeon, you seem to be a True Conservative. You probably would be surprised by how much we probably agree on. In some ways I consider myself to be a True Conservative........just maybe a bit further to the Right.

But then there are some idiots who see the world in only two colors: GEORGE BUSH, and LIBERALS; Nothing else, nothing in between. If you don't agree with torturing people, lying to the American people, shredding the Constitution, and needlessly sending America's best young men and women to die tin a War of Choice for the interests of a Foreign Country, then you are a ..........."LIBERAL".

Don't some idiots here realize that Everything the Bush Administration accomplished, enacted, created, fomented, achieved, and stood for was ultimately the most UN-AMERICAN agenda you could imagine?

They dragged America through the mud! They served a Foreign Power over the interests of America! They disregarded, disrespected, and subverted the Constitution of the United States of America. I don't know about anyone else here, but I swore an oath to uphold and defend, with my life, the Constitution of the United States of America against all enemies, Foreign and Domestic. I take that oath seriously.

When I am referred to as a "Liberal" I can only chuckle,.....

The fact is that President Obama is the Scalpel that is needed to remove the cancerous tumor that George Bush implanted in America. He is the right man, at the right time, in the right place.

Whether one fully agrees with each and every one of Obama's economic policies does not change the fact that President Obama's current actions on the World Stage is having an ENORMOUSLY positive effect. His speech to Muslims last night was an seminal event that I think will be seen as one of the more important speeches in recent history.

I don't get you, do you not think terrorism is a threat?
The memos from the White House proved enhanced interrogations WORKED and that we saved LIVES from using them. Would you honestly rather let innocent people die than "torture" a terrorist? Bush didn't lie to the people, he was given that information by our intel, British intel, and Russian intel. Shredding the Constitution? You'll have to explain because this seems to be the road Obama is taking using socialism.

You don't explain anything! "Bush is bad and Obama is great" is what you say constantly. How has Obama had an "enormously positive effect"??? Give me some examples! He has done NOTHING but make our great country look weak.
 
'Make our great country look week'

Hmmmmmmmm

As an Irish person, and someone who is 'looking at' America. Heres my 2 cents. Bush made me Hate America, a country whose propaganda I grew up on. He made me fear for the future of the world as Led by an increasingly arrogant, foolish, terrorising America, his whole notion that Terrorism occurs seemingly without provocation is really very scary in its complete stupidy. More so in that so many people seem to believe it. America has killed far far far more innocent civilians then were killed in 9/11, both before and after the event. Such events have consequences. Thats historical fact.

Obama has given me hope, hes been in office for such a short time, but he hasn't dissapointed me yet. For the first time since Jimmy Carter, here is an American president who is trying to live by the ideals of Freedom and Democracy that all presidents have spouted while simultaneously denying such rights. Obama is what the world needs.

And Short Round, how can america seriously expect the rest of the world to believe its rhetoric when it holds untried prisoners in illegal detainment camps? When it commits crimes against international law and passes the buck along by doing it out of america? Read any history book about the results of torture as used by the USSR, the Spanish Inquisition, the Nazis, and you'll consistently see the same result. The same logical result. When you are in extreme pain you say not what you know, but what you think your attacker WANTS to know; so you'll confess to things you never did, accuse the innocent, and go to your grave screaming lies, just to make it stop. Again. Historical fact.

Also, speaking of history, who was it said Muslims have a history of violence and fear? Forcing Conversions? Interesting statement, Obviously made by someone with no concept of the proud history of Islam. Try reading some books.

Its all happened before, human reaction ain't such a mystery. Indy'd agree with me, just read history.
 
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Short Round

New member
Jeremiah Jones said:
'Make our great country look week'

Hmmmmmmmm

As an Irish person, and someone who is 'looking at' America. Heres my 2 cents. Bush made me Hate America, a country whose propaganda I grew up on. He made me fear for the future of the world as Led by an increasingly arrogant, foolish, terrorising America, his whole notion that Terrorism occurs seemingly without provocation is really very scary in its complete stupidy. More so in that so many people seem to believe it. America has killed far far far more innocent civilians then were killed in 9/11, both before and after the event. Such events have consequences. Thats historical fact.

Obama has given me hope, hes been in office for such a short time, but he hasn't dissapointed me yet. For the first time since Jimmy Carter, here is an American president who is trying to live by the ideals of Freedom and Democracy that all presidents have spouted while simultaneously denying such rights. Obama is what the world needs.

And Short Round, how can america seriously expect the rest of the world to believe its rhetoric when it holds untried prisoners in illegal detainment camps? When it commits crimes against international law and passes the buck along by doing it out of america? Read any history book about the results of torture as used by the USSR, the Spanish Inquisition, the Nazis, and you'll consistently see the same result. The same logical result. When you are in extreme pain you say not what you know, but what you think your attacker WANTS to know; so you'll confess to things you never did, accuse the innocent, and go to your grave screaming lies, just to make it stop. Again. Historical fact.

Also, speaking of history, who was it said Muslims have a history of violence and fear? Forcing Conversions? Interesting statement, Obviously made by someone with no concept of the proud history of Islam. Try reading some books.

Its all happened before, human reaction ain't such a mystery. Indy'd agree with me, just read history.

Oh cut the bs about making you fear. Bush did no such thing even though there WAS reason to fear. Almost 3,000 people were killed on September 11th, 2001. Propaganda? You mean trying to spread patriotism in a time of despair? What's wrong with that? NOTHING.
America didn't kill more innocent civilians after 9/11. That is a lie and you have no proof of it. I guess you are just repeating what you have heard. Try doing some research.

Oh wow! Look at this! Obama's like Jimmy Carter! Well that's just great. Carter represents one the worst attempts at leadership and is probably the worst president of all time! But I guess you enjoyed his position on the Hostage Crisis, in which he did nothing.

I don't care if you take America seriously. The world does, whether it likes us or not. We did what was necessary to save lives. By using those techniques we saved thousands of peoples lives. If anyone has a problem with that, that is their problem. I'd rather innocent lives saved than making sure terrorists are comfortable. You're analysis is incorrect. The U.S. used enhanced interrogations a couple times to get any information. And it worked. The information saved LIVES. To say that it never works is pure ignorance.

"proud history of Islam"? uh...ok. Sure.

You and Obama live in a fantasy world. You don't understand what it takes to protect a nation.
 

Attila the Professor

Moderator
Staff member
You should all probably know this by now, as a few of you are regulars in this sort of thread, but after a pretty reasonable start, things are getting tenser, and the thread definitely has our eye on it. So, behave, unless you want it closed like so many other threads on these subjects.

(Politics <I>and</I> religion? Yeah, this one will last.)
 

monkey

Guest
Point taken Attila.

Good advice. Let us all calm down just a bit.

Rocket Surgeon, I'll bring the Jameson, ...can you find some Suntory Whiskey for me?

Short Round, I respect the passion with which you convey your opinions. I think that they are wrong, but that doesn't mean that I disrespect you.

Torture is wrong. Always, everywhere. There is NO deviating from that.

Torture is UN-AMERICAN! Torture is IMMORAL!

Would I rather see innocent people die than torture a terrorist? YES.

Let me ask you some questions: In world war II, why didn't we torture captured U-boat sailors? They could have given information that would have certainly saved American lives...right? Why didn't the Germans torture captured Allied Airmen? There is no question that information from them would have saved many innocent German lives (women and children of Dresden, Hamburg, etc.)

We interrogated captured German U-boat Sailors, and the Germans interrogated Allied Airmen, but torture was not used nor condoned.

Why didn't we/they? Because it is WRONG, it is uncivilized, it is against the Geneva Convention, there is no moral justification for it, it does NOT give accurate information anyway, and it is UN-AMERICAN!!

Don't want to listen to me??? Then will you please listen to Senator John McCain? He'll tell you all about Torture.

I really must agree with everything that Jeremiah Jones said in his post.

Suggested reading: "The Transparent Cabal" by Stephen J. Sniegoski, "Where the Right went Wrong" by Patrick Buchanon, "Imperial Hubris" by Michael Scheuer.

I'm not sure if you watch Fox News, but if you do, try turning it off for a bit and reading some of these books.
 

indy34

New member
I had this discussion on torture at a defence force summit last year. I've only read monkeys last comment on torture because I'm too tired to read the rest of the thread.
Yes torture is bad very bad but I'm a realist and I believe under certain circumstances torture is the right thing to do if you can save 10's 100's maybe even thousands by acquiring vital information that could save people from something like a chemical attack( in which they would die horribly) just by torturing one terorist, who wouldnt even hesitate to torture you if you were capured. what would you do?
 

monkey

Guest
indy34 said:
I had this discussion on torture at a defence force summit last year. I've only read monkeys last comment on torture because I'm too tired to read the rest of the thread.
Yes torture is bad very bad but I'm a realist and I believe under certain circumstances torture is the right thing to do if you can save 10's 100's maybe even thousands by acquiring vital information that could save people from something like a chemical attack( in which they would die horribly) just by torturing one terorist, who wouldnt even hesitate to torture you if you were capured. what would you do?

I would NOT torture.

It is WRONG. It is reprehensible. It gives inaccurate information.

Even if it gave accurate information, I would not torture. Because if you torture, then you have given up the morals that define you, and your society, culture, race, identity.

If you torture, then they (whoever the enemy of the moment is) have succeeded in destroying your "Way of Life", they have succeeded in destroying your cultural identity, your morals, your principles...........they WIN!! You LOSE!!

Why can't people see that???

It is truly slippery slope when you start to discuss torture, along with saving "Innocent Lives". Put that power in the wrong hands and you have a catastrophe for humanity.

WRONG is WRONG. IMMORAL is IMMORAL. There is no: "but if it could save lives......." There is no middle ground on this.

And it does NOT matter that your enemy would torture YOU!! That is totally irrelevant to the whole argument.

Eye for an Eye does NOT define my morals. I should hope that Western Civilization has risen above the "Eye for an Eye" mentality that is foreign to Western Man, and comes from Foreigners to Western Civilization.

"Torture is OK" is something that comes from somewhere else. Unfortunately that 'somewhere else' is now dominating Western Civilization.
 

indy34

New member
monkey said:
I would NOT torture.

It is WRONG. It is reprehensible. It gives inaccurate information.

Even if it gave accurate information, I would not torture. Because if you torture, then you have given up the morals that define you, and your society, culture, race, identity.

If you torture, then they (whoever the enemy of the moment is) have succeeded in destroying your "Way of Life", they have succeeded in destroying your cultural identity, your morals, your principles...........they WIN!! You LOSE!!

Why can't people see that???

It is truly slippery slope when you start to discuss torture, along with saving "Innocent Lives". Put that power in the wrong hands and you have a catastrophe for humanity.

WRONG is WRONG. IMMORAL is IMMORAL. There is no: "but if it could save lives......." There is no middle ground on this.

And it does NOT matter that your enemy would torture YOU!! That is totally irrelevant to the whole argument.

Eye for an Eye does NOT define my morals. I should hope that Western Civilization has risen above the "Eye for an Eye" mentality that is foreign to Western Man, and comes from Foreigners to Western Civilization.

"Torture is OK" is something that comes from somewhere else. Unfortunately that 'somewhere else' is now dominating Western Civilization.

So what if it were your whole family you could save you wouldnt even do it for that?
 

monkey

Guest
indy34 said:
So what if it were your whole family you could save you wouldnt even do it for that?

Indy34, please don't take this the wrong way, no disrespect intended, but that is a silly argument.

I don't know how much more clear I can be with my opinion on Torture.

What is your opinion on Mr. Obama's speech?
 

Short Round

New member
monkey said:
Indy34, please don't take this the wrong way, no disrespect intended, but that is a silly argument.

I don't know how much more clear I can be with my opinion on Torture.

What is your opinion on Mr. Obama's speech?

Monkey, please answer that question. Would you torture a murderer to save your family?

I sincerely despise your opinion. You actually say you would rather innocent people die than torture a terrorist. Maybe if you actually saw what the monster has done with your own eyes, you would change your opinion.

Are you honestly telling me you would rather let everyone on these boards die than torture Bin Laden?

All I ask is for you to answer those 2 questions.
 
I really don't see that you need to answer such a stupid question Monkey.

Guys I think you're totally not seeing our point. Or my point anyway. Why do you think these people are angry at america? You think torturing suspected 'terrorists' (and I use that word with hesitancy) is going to win the 'war on terror' for you? Do you even understand why attacks such as 9/11 happened in the first place? Obviously not. Attacking other peoples countries, and killing thousands of innocents is not really a logical way to get countries to stop attacking you.

Claiming that torturing people saves anybody is fairly ludicrous when its a method thats been disproved since the spanish inquisition. The scenario you present is equally ludicrous. As is your notion that you 'despise his opinion' it never fails to amaze me that in the so called 'land of the free' there can be such a severe hatred for free speech and opinion. I thought America was supposed to stand up for free speech, for concepts like liberty and justice, apparently, Short Round, you don't agree with this. As a serious sociological question short round, what is 'America' to you? Really, I'd honestly like to hear your answer.
 
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Attila the Professor

Moderator
Staff member
There's a framing of these issues that I've always been attracted to, probably because it offers no comfort whatsoever.

The old classic argument about torturing the terrorist in order to stop a dirty bomb from going off in Manhattan, or some similar scenario. Obviously, it's an artificial scenario to a high degree, because it assumes that a tortured individual will actually reveal accurate information. But leaving that detail aside, if you can possibly garner useful information, then you would hope that a soldier or official would engage in torture in order to get that information. Of course, it's still wrong, and should still be illegal - but that's the price you pay for undertaking the role of public servant, because those are the people we delegate the responsibility of having dirty hands to.

See, the relativists are wrong, because there are moral absolutes. But the people who think that there are absolute easy answers are wrong too, because while there are moral absolutes, there are a heck of a lot of them. And they happen to come into conflict with one another more often than not. Justice & mercy is the classic example, but the toughest one is individual moral purity vs. community welfare.

Torture's wrong - absolutely wrong. But sometimes, you have to do it anyway.
 

Short Round

New member
Attila the Professor said:
There's a framing of these issues that I've always been attracted to, probably because it offers no comfort whatsoever.

The old classic argument about torturing the terrorist in order to stop a dirty bomb from going off in Manhattan, or some similar scenario. Obviously, it's an artificial scenario to a high degree, because it assumes that a tortured individual will actually reveal accurate information. But leaving that detail aside, if you can possibly garner useful information, then you would hope that a soldier or official would engage in torture in order to get that information. Of course, it's still wrong, and should still be illegal - but that's the price you pay for undertaking the role of public servant, because those are the people we delegate the responsibility of having dirty hands to.

See, the relativists are wrong, because there are moral absolutes. But the people who think that there are absolute easy answers are wrong too, because while there are moral absolutes, there are a heck of a lot of them. And they happen to come into conflict with one another more often than not. Justice & mercy is the classic example, but the toughest one is individual moral purity vs. community welfare.

Torture's wrong - absolutely wrong. But sometimes, you have to do it anyway.

I strongly agree with much of your analysis. There are most definitely moral absolutes, however sometimes they need to be crossed. In other words, the end justifies the means in many situations. Torture by definition is wrong, but it becomes necessary on some occasions as it can save lives in the end, which I believe makes it right. This crosses into another moral question. Is it moral to let thousands die when something can be done about it? I obviously believe it is not. I believe enhanced interrogations should be legalized but only used if authorized by either the President or the head of the CIA.

Hmmmm, this all reminds me of A Few Good Men...
Jack: "You live safely under the protection I provide, then you question the manner in which I provide it!"
 

indy34

New member
monkey said:
Indy34, please don't take this the wrong way, no disrespect intended, but that is a silly argument.

I don't know how much more clear I can be with my opinion on Torture.

What is your opinion on Mr. Obama's speech?
well I guess thats your opinion then, I just see it as a small sacrifice for the greater good.
as for the speech I only watched half of it when it first came out but it seemed as though it will ease things with your average Muslim and the American government.
Now onto why they hate America only the average person hates America because they hear all these things about torture and getting into wars they shouldn't have been in in the first place. But with the terrorist most of them have been taught at a young age to hate and this continues as the war goes on their parents are killed more often than not by things like stray American bombs then they are taken in by the terrorist organization and taught to hate and its not hard when your starting from a young age and already hate filled.
 

Attila the Professor

Moderator
Staff member
indy34 said:
Now onto why they hate America only the average person hates America because they hear all these things about torture and getting into wars they shouldn't have been in in the first place. But with the terrorist most of them have been taught at a young age to hate and this continues as the war goes on their parents are killed more often than not by things like stray American bombs then they are taken in by the terrorist organization and taught to hate and its not hard when your starting from a young age and already hate filled.

Well, and that's another side of the story. The hate has to start somewhere. Somewhere, either in recent memory or in the deeper recesses of the past, there's a start to the resentment, be it an errant bombing or news of tortured prisoners or a sense that Americans are careless money-grubbers with little concern for higher allegiances. (Gee, I wonder where that last one came from, eh.)

Capitalism is good. Prosperity is good. For the country, as a whole, a rising tide raises at least <I>some</I> of the ships.

But there are a lot of people who are left out. Poverty is an ever-present element of human civilization, and when it's not just within a given nation but between nations that the divide is so strongly felt, the resentment can fester in an ever-broader group of people. And this resentment goes for both money and military might.

And so that's why we should be careful not to drop bombs in places we shouldn't, or start wars we shouldn't start, or torture people unless we absolutely have to. And even when we do do these things, we must manage our rhetoric carefully, and be prepared to censure or punish those who do the necessary thing.

Because appearances matter. If there's anything the past eight years should have taught us, it's that. Y'know, President Bush, I expect history will show, was not a great president. Frankly, he was far under par, and there are a good number of conservatives who will tell you that (a few of them are posting in this thread). But would he have been a better president were he not so consistently demonized, and did he not invite it so much in his demeanor and public posturing, and that of his administration? Triumphalism must be avoided at all costs. Sometimes we need it at home - we needed that bullhorn in the rubble moment - but the American people didn't need a banner and a flight jacket. And even if they need, I'd imagine that the need for the rest of the world to not have that particular aircraft carrier set piece outweighs whatever good it does those back in the U.S.

We can't afford to be careless. There's always so much talk about Reagan - whatever happened to the City on the Hill? Whether it's still the foremost world leader or whether it is one of a few, the United States has to act like it.

All of which is to say...a major address like this is far from a terrible idea.
 
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