Darth Vile said:No PT bashing please... My avatar will get upset.
Lance Quazar said:What about "Avatar" bashing? Or will your PT get upset?
Wait, what?
Dayne said:Quite frankly, I believe none of the sequels deserve to be in the presence of Raiders, quality-wise.
Dayne said:Can anyone explain their views on why they think Last Crusade fits in with the originals and why KOTCS does not? Because for the life of me I cannot see what makes that film so much better to "fit in" with the others while Kingdom can't. Quite frankly, I believe none of the sequels deserve to be in the presence of Raiders, quality-wise.
JuniorJones said:Kotcs is the film equivelant of your dad getting up and trying to show you how he can still dance.
It's kind of fun at first because you remember dad being a good dancer but unfortunatley he's a bit slow, his jokes are not funny and he needs obvious assistant to make it work. It's embrassing and you wish he'd never got up.
In retrospect, it was nice seeing your dad dancing again, it made you feel young again but ultimately, it wasn't like it was before and you'd rather forget he did it by pretending it didn't happen and try to remember how he was.
Ajax the Great said:Yet for some reason, as much as I wasn't thrilled about Dad's first dance, I think was a little rusty and has that all sorted out now. So I'd like to see Dad dance again.
This is getting weird.
OmegaSeamaster said:Last Crusade is an original, being part of the original trilogy. Many of the creators from the first two films were still involved with it. To that end, it doesn't have to "fit-in." Skull brought in new people trying to make the new film conform to the tone and spirit of the "originals." This was hit or miss, mostly miss.
Crusade offers many great reasons why it is a better film than Crystal Skull.
1. The great chemistry and comedic timing between Ford & Connery.
2. Nazis were always the essential Indy villains, with Elsa, Donovan and Vogel being fun antagonists (Mac, Spalko and Dovchenko were poor clones - Traitor: Elsa/Mac, Boss: Donovan/Spalko, Tough Guy: Vogel/Dovchenko)
3. The great Douglas Slocombe did the cinematography.
4. The tank chase in the desert was epic. (No monkeys)
5. Walter Donovan's death was as good as Belloq's and left you feeling satisfied.
6. The booby traps (3 challenges) were great...Skull hardly had any, were weak, or were left on the cutting room floor
7. Lack of major CGI and Lucas' tendency to go off the rails kept mercifully in check
8. The Holy Grail was a classic McGuffin based in history/legend and not outer space
9. Sallah and Marcus came along for the adventure
10. The ending was great. Indy saves his dad, Elsa pays for her arrogance, the knight bids the group farewell and the heroes ride off into the sunset as opposed to watching ET and Elliott fly away.
11. John Williams contributed a memorable score that soared. Indy gets ready to make his leap of faith and the music just takes off.
12. The rats were real.
13. The script was very clever:
"Oh it breaks the heart...."
"And the head."
"I'll never forgive myself."
"It's ok Dad, I'm ok..."
"Thank God......it's a fake! You can tell by the cross section!!!"
I dunno...I just can't see how anyone can convince themselves that Skull is on the same level with it. It may be a fun movie if you like Indy, but to me it will always be a let-down.
Darth Vile said:Where to start really... I adore TLC, but your list is very, very subjective.
Darth Vile said:Where to start really... I adore TLC, but your list is very, very subjective.
I'd agree, in principle, about Slocombe being a great cinematographer, but it's not really at the forefront of TLC (IMHO). I'd agree that Williams score for TLC is a strong point (possibly the best Indy score)... But the use of the Holy Grail as the McGuffin is pretty contrived, unoriginal, and has as much, if not less, basis in fact than aliens or the Loch Ness monster. I do like Connery as Jones Senior (in fact I think it's the movies biggest success), but that's more to do with the qualities he brings to the part, rather than how it's written on the page/directed.
To me, Crusade?s lack of originality alone is why it isn?t. For all it?s high points - and there are quite a few - it?s still just RaidersIIOmegaSeamaster said:Crusade offers many great reasons why it is a better film than Crystal Skull.
Agree1. The great chemistry and comedic timing between Ford & Connery.
For me, a draw.2. Nazis were always the essential Indy villains, with Elsa, Donovan and Vogel being fun antagonists (Mac, Spalko and Dovchenko were poor clones - Traitor: Elsa/Mac, Boss: Donovan/Spalko, Tough Guy: Vogel/Dovchenko)
No opinion either way.3. The great Douglas Slocombe did the cinematography.
At times too long and too silly - and yes, so were the monkeys and the crotch hits in Kingdom.4. The tank chase in the desert was epic. (No monkeys)
Better than Belloq to me.5. Walter Donovan's death was as good as Belloq's and left you feeling satisfied.
A draw again - Crusade looses points for the silly giant blade. The leap of faith, however, is fantastic.6. The booby traps (3 challenges) were great...Skull hardly had any, were weak, or were left on the cutting room floor
Draw - CGI or models that look like models & background paintings that look like background paintings. Also, I feel (judging by interviews) that this time it was Lucas who kept Speilberg reeled in on the comedy.7. Lack of major CGI and Lucas' tendency to go off the rails kept mercifully in check
The Holy Grail is based only on legend, not history. Aliens in South American mythology is every bit as real in their paintings & beliefs as the grail is in western culture.8. The Holy Grail was a classic McGuffin based in history/legend and not outer space
More Raiders II, plus the humor wasn't natural, it was just straight comedy relief.9. Sallah and Marcus came along for the adventure
Indy & Marion getting married worked for me.10. The ending was great. Indy saves his dad, Elsa pays for her arrogance, the knight bids the group farewell and the heroes ride off into the sunset as opposed to watching ET and Elliott fly away.
Definitely one of the better Indiana Jones scores and the music for the grail itself is one of Williams? strongest pieces ever.11. John Williams contributed a memorable score that soared. Indy gets ready to make his leap of faith and the music just takes off.
No opinion either way.12. The rats were real.
It had some great moments and some cringe moments - Marcus as a bumbling idiot, as well as Indy?s entire trademark identity formed all on the same day and in just a few minutes - whip, snake fear, scar, hat - weak and very Star Wars Shrunken Universe.13. The script was very clever:
"Oh it breaks the heart...."
"And the head."
"I'll never forgive myself."
"It's ok Dad, I'm ok..."
"Thank God......it's a fake! You can tell by the cross section!!!"
To me, it?s better because it?s no re-hashed. I like Crusade a lot. In fact, I just watched it two days ago. However, in the end it?s just a return to Raiders. I prefer a new adventure each time.I dunno...I just can't see how anyone can convince themselves that Skull is on the same level with it. It may be a fun movie if you like Indy, but to me it will always be a let-down.
Rocket Surgeon said:As is EVERYTHING you say and do, good friend.
Darth Vile said:...The point being that whilst objective and subjective critiques are not mutually exclusive, there isn't much mileage in bullet pointing individual preferences such as "KOTCS is a much better movie than TLC because it has Area 51 in it"... It may be a reason why one prefers KOTCS over TLC, but it's not a particularly scientific one.
Originally Posted by Dayne
Can anyone explain their views on why they think Last Crusade fits in with the originals
Darth Vile said:...very, very subjective.
I too used to think LC was a rehash, but since I saw "the making of LC" thing I realized it's just a lazily made film. GL and SS were out to make a character picture with Indy in it, I see how they would want that after the pulpy ToD failed with critics and audiences alike, but instead of making a unique original story like RotLA they picked up some generic Indy plot.StoneTriple said:To me, Crusade?s lack of originality alone is why it isn?t. For all it?s high points - and there are quite a few - it?s still just RaidersII
JuniorJones said:yes, we all like to see Dad dance again. We all want to see him do better but we don't want him to further degrade our memory of him.
I guess we all know in our hearts it's not the same and prehaps it's time to let go.
Nurhachi1991 said:Yeah well what if Dads next dance was like Moonwalk status and we dont give him a chance. Never let go
Rocket Surgeon said:When some one posts a reply to a question like:
Seems odd to me to critique the list for being:
...and comes off condescending.
JuniorJones said:Dad could moonwalk great in the 80s, he tried to moonwalk in the 00s and frankly it was, in most parts, embrassing. The Grandkids love it, they thought it was great because they didn't know better.
It's sad to see dad this way because of people's love for him is so great.
But they are blinded by this love because they want him to succeed they are prepared to let dad dance on regardless of the cost.