Let's talk about...the Holy Grail

For those of you who might think this is a "is indy immortal?" thread, don't worry, it's not. That question has been answered in abundance on these boards...however, I would like to talk about the Grail and its interest to the Nazi party.

How exactly would the Grail benefit them?

From the way I see it, yes, you gain eternal life, but that does not mean you are invulnerable to death by unnatural causes such as being shot, stabbed, etc.

Henry Sr. was shot and it healed his wound...but if he was shot again it's not like he would be invulnerable to the gun shot wound.

So, to me, Hitler or whoever could drink all they wanted, it doesn't mean they couldn't be killed...so I don't see the dire need to have the Holy Grail unless you just wanted to stay out of harms way for all eternity. It doesn't seem like a good "weapon" to have unless you live a very secluded, careful life.


(Yes, I'm obviously overthinking the whole plot behind the movie...I hope some of you don't mind and have some fun with this.)

RaideroftheArk said:

From the way I see it, yes, you gain eternal life, but that does not mean you are invulnerable to death by unnatural causes such as being shot, stabbed, etc.

Henry Sr. was shot and it healed his wound...but if he was shot again it's not like he would be invulnerable to the gun shot wound.

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Actually, I disagree. I think that the power of the Grail would in fact protect you from death by old age as well as death by "unnatural causes" like gunshots, etc.

I think that Hitler, like Donovan, wanted the eternal life that the Grail promised. The problem is that it only works so long as the Grail is not taken beyond the great seal. But neither Hitler nor Donovan could have possibly known that before speaking with the Grail Knight. So, the Nazis' desire for the Grail is perfectly understandable.

RaideroftheArk said:

...How exactly would the Grail benefit them?...

(Yes, I'm obviously overthinking the whole plot behind the movie...I hope some of you don't mind and have some fun with this.)

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Quick thoughts, preserve the highest officers and scientists, breed the immortals with virginal women to produce an immortal aryan race....

One thing that didn't make sense to me about LC was Donovan's speech about "drinking his own health."

He said that the Nazis merely wanted to "write themselves into the Grail legend," but that he wanted the "cup itself?" And he'd be immortal while Hitler died? Huh?

Why would Hitler eschew the chance to drink from the Grail himself and gain immortality? Did the Nazis not know that was really the true motive of Donovan's quest? Did Donovan somehow keep that nugget of information from his Nazi bosses? The Nazis just wanted bragging rights?!?!

Didn't seem to make much sense.

Pale Horse said:

Quick thoughts, preserve the highest officers and scientists, breed the immortals with virginal women to produce an immortal aryan race....

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Just what I thought of, too, Pale Horse

Lance Quazar said:

Why would Hitler eschew the chance to drink from the Grail himself and gain immortality? Did the Nazis not know that was really the true motive of Donovan's quest? Did Donovan somehow keep that nugget of information from his Nazi bosses? The Nazis just wanted bragging rights?!?!

Didn't seem to make much sense.

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Hitler wanted the idea of the Grail above all else. He probably would drink from it too (I mean, who wouldn't?), but regardless of its limitations, the point was to be in possession of one of the greatest and most powerful artifacts of all time. How the Grail works isn't as important as how your enemies view your power. Who would dare fight against an "immortal"?

-Coronado

Impressive! Outstanding points! I love taking the original ideas of the movie a little further.



Something that always bothered me about Donovan...Here is a guy that seems to be obsessed with grail lore but when he is finally faced with his choice he has no idea what it looks like!!!???

Did he really have to state "I'm not a historian, I have no idea what it looks like" are you kidding??? You mean, all those pictures, drawings, carvings you have all over your house you couldn't give an educated guess as to what THE HOLY GRAIL might look like???

RaideroftheArk said:

Impressive! Outstanding points! I love taking the original ideas of the movie a little further.



Something that always bothered me about Donovan...Here is a guy that seems to be obsessed with grail lore but when he is finally faced with his choice he has no idea what it looks like!!!???

Did he really have to state "I'm not a historian, I have no idea what it looks like" are you kidding??? You mean, all those pictures, drawings, carvings you have all over your house you couldn't give an educated guess as to what THE HOLY GRAIL might look like???

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I think it's probably safe to say that there were few, if any, accurate pictures of the Grail.

The line could have been better since, yeah, you'd figure Donovan would have done his homework.

But I'd imagine that accurate images of the Grail probably did not exist anywhere.

RaideroftheArk said:

Impressive! Outstanding points! I love taking the original ideas of the movie a little further.



Something that always bothered me about Donovan...Here is a guy that seems to be obsessed with grail lore but when he is finally faced with his choice he has no idea what it looks like!!!???

Did he really have to state "I'm not a historian, I have no idea what it looks like" are you kidding??? You mean, all those pictures, drawings, carvings you have all over your house you couldn't give an educated guess as to what THE HOLY GRAIL might look like???

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Actually, one gets the idea that he's really more of a pocket-Charles Foster Kane, collecting everything he can, chasing his youth all the while. The Grail is special as an artifact in that it gets him his youth, and he's certainly put some work into it, but I don't think that much of what we see in his house has anything to do with the Grail. The manuscript and the tablet seem to be exceptions. He's really a rich industrialist, let's not forget.

RaideroftheArk said:

For those of you who might think this is a "is indy immortal?" thread, don't worry, it's not. That question has been answered in abundance on these boards...however, I would like to talk about the Grail and its interest to the Nazi party.

How exactly would the Grail benefit them?

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The Knight said the power of the Grail does not pass beyond the Great Seal. I'm thinking that was a detail no one knew about and could not have known about until they met with the Knight face to face (clearly, Elsa didn't get it even though she was standing there when the Knight said it). Based on the information they had, the Nazi's assumed possessing and drinking from the Grail would ensure eternal life anywhere on Earth. If Hitler wanted to use the Grail as he intended, he would have had to make the Grail's temple his headquarters or perhaps extricated the Great Seal to a location of his choosing (which is a huge gamble because so much could go wrong during its transportation).

It leaves me wondering what is the connection between the Grail and the Great Seal. Why are they bound together?

Attila the Professor said:

Actually, one gets the idea that he's really more of a pocket-Charles Foster Kane, collecting everything he can, chasing his youth all the while. The Grail is special as an artifact in that it gets him his youth, and he's certainly put some work into it, but I don't think that much of what we see in his house has anything to do with the Grail. The manuscript and the tablet seem to be exceptions. He's really a rich industrialist, let's not forget.

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Exactly! Or he would not have employed Dr. Henry Jones, Sr and later his son. Donovan was not a scholar by any means. What he told Indy was likely something he gleaned from conversations with Jones, Sr. and was merely parroting back.

Coronado said:

Hitler wanted the idea of the Grail above all else. He probably would drink from it too (I mean, who wouldn't?), but regardless of its limitations, the point was to be in possession of one of the greatest and most powerful artifacts of all time. How the Grail works isn't as important as how your enemies view your power. Who would dare fight against an "immortal"?

-Coronado

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Right, I think the idea is the same as the Nazi's wanting the Ark. "He's obsessed with the Occult. Hitler's gone nuts on the subject." TLC continues the story set forth in RotLA. What Hitler wants is possession of icons of power.

Imagine, he get the Ark, the Grail, Excalibur, the Spear of Destiny, Pandora's jar, Thor's hammer, whatever...supernaturally charged objects, and because he drank from the Grail, he's immortal. Nukes are a few years away yet and his Nazi army has crushed every other army (as Jones, Sr hints) who are only armed with mere guns. Nuke technology gets appropriated by the Nazi's and ultimately developed by them...and who now stands a chance to oppose them??? No one.

I know this doesn't exactly focus on how the Nazis would use the Grail, but I like the fact that the ending of LC is a bit ambiguous, which leaves me with the following questions that center around the Grail.

I've always wondered what happened to the knight. Does he just die after he waves goodbye or does he keep living on? Does the Grail still exist within the Great Seal even though it fell down a crevice? Will more people come looking for it in the future since it's still there waiting to be discovered again? Or is it irrevocably lost?

Heavy-Sixer said:

I've always wondered what happened to the knight. Does he just die after he waves goodbye or does he keep living on? Does the Grail still exist within the Great Seal even though it fell down a crevice? Will more people come looking for it in the future since it's still there waiting to be discovered again? Or is it irrevocably lost?

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We don't know for sure, so everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I like to think that the grail temple was miraculously restored, the grail returned to its place among the others, and the knight continues his vigil. After all, he has been miraculously provided for and sustained all those centuries while confined to a single room without food, water and sunlight.

Heavy-Sixer said:

I've always wondered what happened to the knight. Does he just die after he waves goodbye or does he keep living on? Does the Grail still exist within the Great Seal even though it fell down a crevice? Will more people come looking for it in the future since it's still there waiting to be discovered again? Or is it irrevocably lost?

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Those are great questions! Like maybe Indy returns to make a concentrated search for the Grail; he and his father know how to get that far; I presume they only left because they were ill prepared to do anything lasting more than a day or two (a quick trip out and back). Or perhaps the Knight retrieves it. After all, it appears there are caverns below the main temple entrance (as in below the "J").