Does the finale hold up to the original 3? (thoughts & opinions)

michael

Well-known member
I will be the first to say that the journey to the temple was a little stale. And the suspense of what the actual skull could actually do when united, wasn't there. When we see them come together and Spalko's mind explodes, we say, ah yes, that was going to happen. More or a less a multiple answer question: You don't know it right after you read the question, but when you see the answer, you say: "Oh, of course it's that one."
It wasn't baaaaad, just, meh, right?

What was done amazingly though, was the departure of the flying saucer, and Indy is alone on screen watching it take off. Just a wonderful scene, that IN MY OPINION, can hold a candle to other 3 films.

Raiders captured that feeling of mystery and suspense of wanting to know the powers of the Ark. The actual opening was jaw-dropping. The brilliance of the "don't look at it Marion!" Amazing stuff. The opening of the Ark.

Temple of Doom is the oddball (but not a bad thing). The suspense on the bridge and the fight with Mola Ram make it unique from the other 3 and thrilling! Ask anybody who says they don't really prefer Temple of Doom, I'm sure they will like the rope bridge sequence. And guess what? you DO see the power of the stones on the return to the village, it's just a little bit more subtle. Rope Bridge Scene

Last Crusade, well this is an easy one. The 3 challenges to obtain the grail. I have never & will never be so anticipated for a finale to a movie ever again. I can still remember the first time watching it, just waiting to see what happens when they finally get to the Grail Temple. The challenges themselves hold up extremely well also, and the power of the Grail is majestic, as we see it give & take life. The fact that Indy's dad was most effected by the actual grail, makes it even more powerful. Temple of the Grail

After typing that, I say to myself, how can Kingdom's finale even touch those? I really do believe that the departure of the flying saucer & Indy watching comes REALLY REALLY CLOSE. Maybe it's my love for all things sci-fi and "flying saucers" but what it does do, it gives Indy a MAGNIFICENT FIND in a different decade. It measures up to the things he's witnessed in the 3 other films. And I will say this: The flying saucer taking off makes up for everything after they get to the actual temple. In my eyes, it's that good and significant in the world that is Indiana Jones.
 
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Cole

New member
It was pretty much impossible to top what they did with the original films. This much is clear.

You only hope to subscribe to a similar level of quality........and I feel this film accomplished that.

The mix of legend, fact and myth comes to create another intriguing, smart story I think.

When Indy marries Marion, and Marion plants that huge kiss on Indy and Indy grabs the hat right before you think Mutt's gonna put it on...........I don't see how any Indiana Jones couldn't leave the theater with a big smile.
 

michael

Well-known member
Cole said:
When Indy marries Marion, and Marion plants that huge kiss on Indy and Indy grabs the hat right before you think Mutt's gonna put it on...........I don't see how any Indiana Jones couldn't leave the theater with a big smile.
I had the BIGGEST SMILE on my face when that happened man. It's not your time kid, Indy is still the man. It gave me goosebumps!
I kinda of left out the actual scenes that happen right before the credits, focusing more on the "action" finale of the films. But I whole heartedly agree that last part is a great way to end the movie. That definitely holds up!
 

James

Well-known member
Last Crusade is probably the most satisfying finale, although mainly because of the Henry Sr. storyline.

Temple would be the weakest. The rope bridge is a great sequence, but Mola Ram's death and the MacGuffin's "power" both feel like afterthoughts.

I do feel that the saucer reveal and subsequent wedding make up for the earlier events in the pyramid. I also like the fact that Indy seems genuinely awed by what he is seeing- something that didn't really come across with the stones or the Grail.
 

The Drifter

New member
Of course nothing will ever hold a candle to the original three. I know the first three were great movies, but I think that it has alot to do with us being kids when we first seen them.
Everything seems better when we were kids; the cartoons, the music, and the movies.
 

DocWhiskey

Well-known member
Spalko's death is a bit anti-climatic. But the UFO flying away made up for it. The CG was quite flawless. I think the shot of Indy walking up to the mushroom cloud and Indy in front of the UFO is some really beautiful stuff. Even if the predicament leading up to it was a bit underwhelming.
 

indyclone25

Well-known member
granted the "aliens" were not the most awe inspiring finale we have seen as in the other movies but when indy and marion tie the knot that was another fine finish in my book, finally seeing the two together for what seems like the rest of their lives , made me smile just as much as seeing indy and the gang riding off into the sunset in last crusade.
 

Wilhelm

Member
I think Indy 4 was necessary for Indy because at the end of Last Crusade the story arc of Henry Jones Sr. is resolved but not Indy's life.

"What did you find, Junior?" He didn't answer. He's sad with the death of Elsa and he's alone again.

But in the end of Skull Indy finds a family and "knowledge" after the departure of the UFO.

The idea of a flying saucer under an ancient temple is great and the image very iconic. He's alone after the atomic bomb, but the same image is mirrored in the end with the new members of his family. A perfect ending.
 

AndyLGR

Active member
KOTCS finale (and the lead up to it) is confusing and to my mind is just too far out there. I know people will say how can you say that when they opened an ark that fired lightening or they used a cup that gives eternal live. But to my mind all the other 3 films has plausible endings and outcomes that suited their supernatural / religious macguffins. You knew pretty much what each of them did in the original 3 and the anticipation of the lead characters getting to that finale was to me anyway higly anticipated, (although arguably TOD has the weakest central plot item).

My problem with KOTCS is I dont understand what the skull was for or why they had to return it. To top it off a crystal skeleton comes to life and then we see an alien.......... in short, the whole end sequence did not make any sense to me at all and the fact it includes aliens and a spaceship is an additional nail in the coffin. I just did not think the ending was clear and no one I know who went to see the film can tell me either. I have never walked out at the end of a film feeling so disappointed.

And I still think that no one involved in the film knew what was going on either. How anyone on the production team could not have thought 'hang on does anyone understand the storyline and the finale' is beyond me. If someone did think it then they didnt have the balls to tell the bearded ones.
 

Forbidden Eye

Well-known member
As much as I like Kingdom, I have to agree the finale was by far the weakest of the 4. It certainly doesn't hold up to Raiders or Temple. Even though I don't think Last Crusade is all that good, it somewhat makes up for being Indy-lite by having the three challenges which is by far the best and most interesting part of the movie(though the final shot ruins it for me).

I have zero problems with the aliens or UFOs(in fact, I actually like of Indy staring at the UFO). What I did have problems was how rushed they got rid with Mac("I'm gonna be alright." Um....okay). Those goofy/sentimental lines they recite feel pretty forced. The wedding scene is okay, outside of the fact it limits the potential of an inevitable Indy 5.

I definitely think the beginning can compare with the other three though.
 

Darth Vile

New member
Similar to Forbidden Eye... Although it's a movie I much enjoy, KOTCS IMHO, has the weakest dénouement of all 4 movies. Mainly for 3 key reasons: -

1). The finale tries too hard to be a hybrid of Raiders and TLC. Consequently, it stretches itself too thin. Therefore, it lacks the visual/visceral and concise impact of Raiders, and the emotional impact of TLC (which was largely attributable to the father/son/Ford/Connery relationship).

2) The quite random and throwaway nature of Mac's death. Putting some emotional depth into Mac's demise could have improved the finale (and overall movie) threefold for me. Sadly, Mac's death doesn't seem to have any relevance and ultimately erodes his entire characters significance, and the significance of his relationship with Indy. This for me is the singular biggest flaw in KOTCS... and ironically I think it would have been the easiest/quickest thing to fix in post production.

3). The CGI alien and flying saucer seems too incongruous with the rest of the movie, the previous movies, and the general aesthetic of what is expected of an Indy movie. I think the alien and UFO are rendered lovingly and exhibit great craftsmanship? but for me, I would have liked an air of mystery to prevail e.g. lets just see shadows or bright lights etc. I accept that seeing the archetypal ?grey? alien type and having a shiny flying saucer is in keeping with the pulp elements of 1950?s sci-fi movies (to which KOTCS references), but I personally would have preferred a tad more mystery. I also except that this point may be my problem and not that of the movie.
 

AndyLGR

Active member
Darth Vile said:
Similar to Forbidden Eye... Although it's a movie I much enjoy, KOTCS IMHO, has the weakest dénouement of all 4 movies. Mainly for 3 key reasons: -

1). The finale tries too hard to be a hybrid of Raiders and TLC. Consequently, it stretches itself too thin. Therefore, it lacks the visual/visceral and concise impact of Raiders, and the emotional impact of TLC (which was largely attributable to the father/son/Ford/Connery relationship).

2) The quite random and throwaway nature of Mac's death. Putting some emotional depth into Mac's demise could have improved the finale (and overall movie) threefold for me. Sadly, Mac's death doesn't seem to have any relevance and ultimately erodes his entire characters significance, and the significance of his relationship with Indy. This for me is the singular biggest flaw in KOTCS... and ironically I think it would have been the easiest/quickest thing to fix in post production.
Also I think the fact that there are 5 'hero' characters all vying for screen time during the finale means that none of them really get enough attention for their characters to mean something. I didnt feel that I cared about what was happening to them.
 

Cole

New member
AndyLGR said:
Also I think the fact that there are 5 'hero' characters all vying for screen time during the finale means that none of them really get enough attention for their characters to mean something. I didnt feel that I cared about what was happening to them.
I don't think they're vowing for screen time, I think it reinforces the family theme of the film.
 

Cole

New member
AndyLGR said:
KOTCS finale (and the lead up to it) is confusing and to my mind is just too far out there. I know people will say how can you say that when they opened an ark that fired lightening or they used a cup that gives eternal live. But to my mind all the other 3 films has plausible endings and outcomes that suited their supernatural / religious macguffins. You knew pretty much what each of them did in the original 3 and the anticipation of the lead characters getting to that finale was to me anyway higly anticipated, (although arguably TOD has the weakest central plot item).

My problem with KOTCS is I dont understand what the skull was for or why they had to return it. To top it off a crystal skeleton comes to life and then we see an alien.......... in short, the whole end sequence did not make any sense to me at all and the fact it includes aliens and a spaceship is an additional nail in the coffin. I just did not think the ending was clear and no one I know who went to see the film can tell me either. I have never walked out at the end of a film feeling so disappointed.

And I still think that no one involved in the film knew what was going on either. How anyone on the production team could not have thought 'hang on does anyone understand the storyline and the finale' is beyond me. If someone did think it then they didnt have the balls to tell the bearded ones.
The legend of the crystal skull is whoever returns it will gain control over its power.

I like the fact that the ending has some amount of ambiguity and retains some amount of mystery about the aliens, but I don't think it's so confusing that it makes the film a sham or something.

I think it's pretty clear that Spalko is destroyed from too much knowledge: it's more than her mind can handle.

Upong entering the temple, Spalko mentions how the aliens are "hive mind. One being, phsyically separate, but with a collective conscious. More powerful together than they can ever be apart."

My line of thinking is that the alien physically manifestates itself into the 13 separate entities we see.......to essentially weaken itself and share knowledge with the native tribes and not harm them. Notice how Spalko does not become harmed until the aliens start forming into one body.

Thus, the skeletons do not leave because the alien cannot become "whole" again without the missing skull.

I think the alien overloads Spalko with knowledge because it knows Spalko wants to use the power for selfish, greedy reasons (hence the skull only communicates with Indy, Ox). The shot of the alien peering at Spalko is almost like it's peering into her soul or something. It's a cool shot.
 

Dr.Jonesy

Well-known member
Actually, the KOTCS finale is my 2nd favorite finale of the 4.

-Raiders
-Skull
-Crusade
-Temple

I'd explain why but I don't feel like typing it all up.
:p
But the KOTCS finale, to me, was the second most bombastic, beautiful and exciting.
 

James

Well-known member
Cole said:
I don't think they're vowing for screen time, I think it reinforces the family theme of the film.

I have to admit, I've never understood why this was such a problem for many fans. It was essentially what we saw in LC- even down to the nature of each character's role.

Indy
Henry Sr./Mutt - Sidekick who gets to shine
Sallah/Marion - Underused Raiders favorite
Brody/Oxley - The bumbling fool
Kazim/Mac - First revealed as a villain, ultimately redeemed

True, Kazim's role was significantly smaller, but he was still a "good guy" that kept popping up throughout the film. And as everyone likes to point out, Mac's loyalties were in question the entire film. So if you count him as a bad guy (as most do), the rogues gallery breaks even with LC.

Donovan/Spalko - The champagne villain
Vogel/Dovchenko - The heavy
Elsa/Mac - The greedy ally

Ultimately, I just view the last act as Indy being part of an expedition- much like his "crusade" in the last one. Sure, I'd like to see fewer sidekicks in an Indy 5, but it didn't bother me to see a slightly different approach here.
 

Darth Vile

New member
James said:
I have to admit, I've never understood why this was such a problem for many fans. It was essentially what we saw in LC- even down to the nature of each character's role.

Indy
Henry Sr./Mutt - Sidekick who gets to shine
Sallah/Marion - Underused Raiders favorite
Brody/Oxley - The bumbling fool
Kazim/Mac - First revealed as a villain, ultimately redeemed

True, Kazim's role was significantly smaller, but he was still a "good guy" that kept popping up throughout the film. And as everyone likes to point out, Mac's loyalties were in question the entire film. So if you count him as a bad guy (as most do), the rogues gallery breaks even with LC.

Donovan/Spalko - The champagne villain
Vogel/Dovchenko - The heavy
Elsa/Mac - The greedy ally

Ultimately, I just view the last act as Indy being part of an expedition- much like his "crusade" in the last one. Sure, I'd like to see fewer sidekicks in an Indy 5, but it didn't bother me to see a slightly different approach here.

Agreed - the amount of characters and the ensemble feel really isn't an issue for me. It's ultimately what they do with them that counts... and in the final third, they don't really do that much. It's too action focused if anything... even TLC had it's breathing space in the finale.
 

AndyLGR

Active member
Cole said:
I don't think they're vowing for screen time, I think it reinforces the family theme of the film.
The point I'm trying to make that I probably didnt explain very well is that I think with there being so many characters with Indy that none of them have the time to be developed very well.

The father / son angle didnt seem right, Indys reaction and relationship with Marion seems too rushed and was nothing like the spark they had in the first movie.

Mac was under used and could have been an interesting foil for Indy, whilst Ox had no meaningful input with his character other than being the cause of the muddled story.

I just thought the screen was too cluttered with too many on the quest at the end.

I understand it was like a family of 5, but it was too much of a crowd in my view.

It would be interesting to know how Indys father would have fitted into the story had Connery decided to do it.
 
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