Indy-Belloq Bar Scene

mathmat

New member
Hi. I'm new to this forum and this is my first post. Apologies if it is long but I have a question that's really bugging me...

I was just watching Raiders and some things that I had never thought of hit me all of a sudden. Specifically how the Nazis and Belloq wanted to kill Indiana Jones.

Now at the beginning of the movie, after retrieving the Idol, Belloq sends the Hovitos to kill Indy. So that clearly establishes that Belloq wants to eliminate Indy.

Then there is the monkey. The monkey is first seen in Sallah's home, and it becomes clear throughout the movie that the monkey is following Indy and reporting to his master who in turn reports to the Nazis regarding Indy's current location.

First, there is the whole Basket Chase scene. And later there is the poisoning attempt. Both involve the Monkey Man trailing Indy via the monkey and attempts on Indy's life.

But my questions concerns the bar scene interaction between Indy and Belloq. Before the German henchmen come to Indy to tell him to that Belloq wants to see him, you see the Monkey Man drive up on his motorcycle. So it is clear that he has told the Nazis that Indy is there. It is consistent with him reporting to the Nazis just like before the Basket chase.

So the audience knows that they are going to try to kill Indy at the bar (or take him from the bar and kill him somewhere else.) But my questions regard when Indy himself realizes he will be killed:

1) When the Germans come to him while he is drinking and tell him someone wants to see him, does Indy know he is going to be killed?

2) When Indy sees Belloq for the first time seated, and consequently knows that the German henchmen are in with Belloq, does he know he will be killed at that point? He says he should kill Belloq but makes no attempt and sits down. Does he want to hear Belloq out and maybe buy time? Or is he too drunk to make an accurate shot before getting shot himself?

3) During the conversation with Belloq it becomes very clear that Indy is going to die. Belloq basically says that Indy is going to die. So I'm guessing that's why Indy tries to draw his gun and shoot Belloq, because if he's going to be killed he might as well take Belloq with him? And if this then is Indy's motivation at this point, why didn't he draw his gun when he first saw Belloq sitting? (My question #2 above) Also, when Indy escapes you can see the look of disappointment on Belloq's face. So it's clear Belloq wants Indy dead.

Also, are the Arabs in the bar who draw their guns on Belloq's side or are they just patrons. It seems Indy thinks they are just patrons since he says "these Arabs don't care if we kill each other." The scene seems a little ambiguous, especially since they run outside after Indy leaves and are laughing and smiling.

Anyway, I was hoping somebody might have some insight into this scene. Like I said, when they show the Monkey Man pulling up on his motorcycle we the audience know that they are going to try to kill Indy. But when does Indy himself realize this?

Thanks for any input. Like I said this scene is really bugging me.
 

MancIndyFan

New member
Hi there I am new here too and this is my first post also.
I was watching Raiders on the BBC the other night and also had a question about why Belloq doesn't kill Indy but I was thinking about after he threatens to shoot the ark with the RPG near the end. They kept him alive to allow him to witness the ark opening ceremony after all the trouble he caused and friends of those German soldiers he had killed?

Regarding the Cairo bar scene. I thought Indy probably understood his sittuation when he saw it was Belloq. I think all the Arabs were on the Nazis side so when Indy drew his gun he didn't expect that much opposition. Factor in he was v drunk too and I don't think he went in expecting to die.
 

Mickiana

Well-known member
I think Indy is so depressed by the apparent death of Marion that he loses hope and possibly the will to live. He seemed pretty serious about taking Belloq out then and there and was prepared to go with him, albeit with Belloq leading the way.

I can imagine behind the scenes Belloq may have secretly wanted to keep Indy alive as he stole from and exploited Indy very well. Belloq's attempts to off Indy seemed half hearted. He may have felt that Indy was one person who could understand him in his obsession for the relics they sought, so he played with him, teased him, humiliated him and stole his achievements from him.

When I word it that way, it seems somewhat parallel to the relationship between Hannibal Lecter and Will Graham in the latest TV series, "Hannibal". A dark, malevolent force that subversively toys with and manipulates another whom he thinks may be like himself.
 

mathmat

New member
Thank you very much for your responses. I appreciate them but I have to respectfully disagree with some points.

I find it hard to believe that Indy would lose the will to live after Marion's supposed death. That is just VERY out of character. He's probably the most driven movie hero that's ever been seen. And if he does lose the will to live, he's certainly NOT the hero we all know and love. That would be very disappointing.

Furthermore I don't believe Belloq's attempts to kill Indy were half-hearted. Sending at least 30 Hovitos to kill Indy and then sending multiple Arab swordsman during the Basket Chase scene (as well as Arabs with machine guns) hardly seem half-hearted. And those are the only 2 times we see Belloq try to kill Indy.

Also, after Indy eescapes the bar you can see the look of disappointment on Belloq's face. That reveals a lot regarding Belloq wanting Indy dead.

Indy went to the bar to drown his sorrows, but many people do that without losing the will to live. They just want to get drunk. Besides, when Indy and Sallah go to the old man to discuss the headpiece Indy seems quite excited. I don't think you can lose the will to live and then a few hours later be all motivated again.

Here is what I think happened:

When the 2 Germans come to pick up Indy he knows he's in some kind of trouble. Then when he sees Belloq he knows he's going to be killed. Indy believes Belloq to be responsible for the Basket Chase attack. Plus Belloq has his Nazi henchman standing behind Indy. I find it almost impossible to believe that Indy didn't think there was going to be an attempt on his life.

Furthermore, Belloq's speach about how things between them were going to end and finding a new adversary further clearly indicate Belloq wants him dead.

The reason Indy doesn't try to kill Bellloq when he first sees him is simply for story purposes. They have to show the similarities and differences between the two. It's also why the Germans didn't take Indy's gun. All for the sake of moving the plot along and giving Indy character development and motivation. Silly, but necessary for the story.

But after the exposition is done, Indy, knowing he will be taken away and shot, figures if he's going to go he might as well take Belloq with him. That's why he tries to draw his gun. And then after Sallah's kids have rescued him, you clearly see the look of disappointment on Belloq's face. You even see him look back at the Nazi henchman. It's clear he's thinking "This guy might get the ark before me. I missed my chance to kill him." So that's why the Monkey Man goes to the old man's house to poison Indy. Another attempt to try to kill him.

Just put yourself in Indy's situation: If you're at a bar getting drunk and your arch-enemies' henchmen come pick you up and take you to him, all the while standing behind you, I think you'd be pretty convinced that you were going to die. Especially when he's tried to kill you before.

Again, apologies for the long post and any feedback is greatly appreciated.

Thanks!
 

Joe Brody

Well-known member
Here's a few additional observations:

1.) Indy's State of Mind: I'd argue there's more than just the immediate loss of Marion at work at the beginning of the scene. Go back to scene at the Raven where Marion informs Indy that Abner is dead and says "do you know what you did to my life?" Two things: at that point Indy has to absorb the loss of his mentor and acknowledge what he did to Marion. However, by Indy and Marion getting back together so quickly and teaming up, Indy doesn't have to fully own up to his mistreatment of Maron and own up to his past actions -- but with Marion's seeming death Indy has to process it all and he has to come to grips with not just her loss but his own past conduct. In no way do I think he's lost the will to live -- instead, he's getting drunk to dull some nasty self knowledge.

2.) Does Indy Know He's Going to Be Shot? Despite his opening comment, I don't think Indy knows what's going on (that he's about to be killed) because he goes to an Arab first instead of looking for a European. Also, he takes the bottle with his gun hand. If he thought he was going to see action, I don't think he'd bring the bottle. Further, the Mahala Bar is a big place, and not the place for a shooting. Which takes us to. . .

3.) Belloq's plans and the arming of the patrons. I think the patrons have all been engaged by the Germans/Belloq -- but I take that as a defensive action and not necessarily a plan to shoot Indy at that instant. It's good film but it doesn't make sense. I'd argue in the film noir world of the '30's that there's a different standard for the Indys and Belloqs of the world. In the jungle or if you're in Hobbes, the state of nature, the two will go at it with little fear of reprecussions. Outside of the jungle, however, they have to act to a greater or lesser extent as civilized men and won't shoot other cold on sight. Recall, Indy only goes to pull his weapon after being provoked -- and he's drunk. Also, Egypt at the time is under British control and there would be law enforcement and, eventually, a trial. A shooting of an American could compromise the Germans dig if they were implicated in a shooting. Sure, bribes work, but I don't think Belloq's plan was to have Indy shot in the bar. I think the plan was to take him and lead him out. Heck, look at the weapons and the guys in the bar. If shooting opened up, Belloq likely would have bought it in the cross fire.

I'm as guilty as anyone of overthinking the scenes in Raiders -- so don't put much stock into what I say. At the end of the day, not all that goes on during the Belloq/Indy exchange makes much sense. It is however, good film.
 

mathmat

New member
Hi Joe Brody. Thank you for your observations, which I largely agree with. I'd like to give some thoughts on your points:

Joe Brody said:
1.) Indy's State of Mind: I'd argue there's more than just the immediate loss of Marion at work at the beginning of the scene. Go back to scene at the Raven where Marion informs Indy that Abner is dead and says "do you know what you did to my life?" Two things: at that point Indy has to absorb the loss of his mentor and acknowledge what he did to Marion. However, by Indy and Marion getting back together so quickly and teaming up, Indy doesn't have to fully own up to his mistreatment of Maron and own up to his past actions -- but with Marion's seeming death Indy has to process it all and he has to come to grips with not just her loss but his own past conduct. In no way do I think he's lost the will to live -- instead, he's getting drunk to dull some nasty self knowledge.

I agree that Indy has not lost the will to live and is simply getting drunk to dull pain. Indy losing the will to live is just WAY out of character as well as inconsistent with the next scene with the old man.

Joe Brody said:
2.) Does Indy Know He's Going to Be Shot? Despite his opening comment, I don't think Indy knows what's going on (that he's about to be killed) because he goes to an Arab first instead of looking for a European. Also, he takes the bottle with his gun hand. If he thought he was going to see action, I don't think he'd bring the bottle. Further, the Mahala Bar is a big place, and not the place for a shooting. Which takes us to. . .

I don't think Indy necessarily knew he was going to get shot until he saw Belloq. He was drunk when the Nazi henchmen came to him and like you said he asked an Arab "You looking for me?" But I think the sight of Belloq quickly sobered him up and he knew at that point.

Joe Brody said:
3.) Belloq's plans and the arming of the patrons. I think the patrons have all been engaged by the Germans/Belloq -- but I take that as a defensive action and not necessarily a plan to shoot Indy at that instant. It's good film but it doesn't make sense. I'd argue in the film noir world of the '30's that there's a different standard for the Indys and Belloqs of the world. In the jungle or if you're in Hobbes, the state of nature, the two will go at it with little fear of reprecussions. Outside of the jungle, however, they have to act to a greater or lesser extent as civilized men and won't shoot other cold on sight. Recall, Indy only goes to pull his weapon after being provoked -- and he's drunk. Also, Egypt at the time is under British control and there would be law enforcement and, eventually, a trial. A shooting of an American could compromise the Germans dig if they were implicated in a shooting. Sure, bribes work, but I don't think Belloq's plan was to have Indy shot in the bar. I think the plan was to take him and lead him out. Heck, look at the weapons and the guys in the bar. If shooting opened up, Belloq likely would have bought it in the cross fire.

I agree that Indy would not have been shot in the bar and the plan was to take him out of the bar and shoot him someplace less conspicuous. This is exactly why Belloq and the Nazis hired Arabs to kill Indy in the streets of Cairo. So no Germans would be implicated.

Joe Brody said:
I'm as guilty as anyone of overthinking the scenes in Raiders -- so don't put much stock into what I say. At the end of the day, not all that goes on during the Belloq/Indy exchange makes much sense. It is however, good film.

I think you are right on the money, Joe Brody. I think your analysis is very intelligent and identical to mine, including the fact that not all that happened in the bar made sense. Specifically the Nazi henchmen not taking Indy's gun. Also it makes sense that Indy couldn't shoot Belloq when he saw him since he had the bottle in his gun hand and there would be no time to draw before he was shot himself. That's why he sat down and put the bottle on the table and consequntly freed up his gun hand. I didn't think of that until your observation in your 2nd point!

I was just curious what you thought of why Indy drew his gun to kill Belloq? Seems the only possible reason given your analysis is that he wanted to take Belloq with him.
 

Mickiana

Well-known member
"You wanna talk to god? Let's go see him together. I've got nothing better to do!" And then reaches for his gun.

It is out of character for Indy to forgo survival, normally, but in this situation it seems he allowed a moment for murder/suicide to become possible. Marion had been killed, he would have been feeling blame and he very much would have been feeling Belloq was to blame also and don't forget his and Belloq's history.

"I've got nothing better to do." Those are not the words of someone feeling the will to live, at that moment. Even Sallah sees this and boosts Indy: "Life goes on Indy. There is the proof." (referring to his children)

So, there is a moment, short lived as it is, where Indy was ready to combine vengeance with throwing his lot in. But it is just a moment and it wasn't a survival instinct for himself that stopped him, but Sallah's children swarming him at precisely the right moment. He pulls back from that fateful, spur of the moment decision because of the children.

The whole scene is complicated and many aspects about and between Belloq and Indy are revealed and all on the platform of Marion's very recent 'death'. The contention it raises in our discussion here shows what good writing of the script it was.
 

mathmat

New member
Mickiana said:
"You wanna talk to god? Let's go see him together. I've got nothing better to do!" And then reaches for his gun.

It is out of character for Indy to forgo survival, normally, but in this situation it seems he allowed a moment for murder/suicide to become possible. Marion had been killed, he would have been feeling blame and he very much would have been feeling Belloq was to blame also and don't forget his and Belloq's history.

"I've got nothing better to do." Those are not the words of someone feeling the will to live, at that moment. Even Sallah sees this and boosts Indy: "Life goes on Indy. There is the proof." (referring to his children)

So, there is a moment, short lived as it is, where Indy was ready to combine vengeance with throwing his lot in. But it is just a moment and it wasn't a survival instinct for himself that stopped him, but Sallah's children swarming him at precisely the right moment. He pulls back from that fateful, spur of the moment decision because of the children.

The whole scene is complicated and many aspects about and between Belloq and Indy are revealed and all on the platform of Marion's very recent 'death'. The contention it raises in our discussion here shows what good writing of the script it was.

Thanks for your reply Mickiana, but I have some issues with your analysis. To be suicidal would be to walk into Belloq's house full of armed guards and start shooting.

We have all lost people close to us but how many of us become suicidal over the death of a loved one? Not many. And to think that Indy, as determined and stong-willed as he is, would be suicidal in this instance when the vast majority of us wouldn't is, in my opinion, very wrong.

You have to remember that Indy KNOWS he's going to be killed. I think that is VERY clear from Belloq's words (New adversary, ending this way for us), the fact that he tried to kill him in the streets of Cairo and South America, and that he has his henchmen standing right behind Indy! It's clear as day.

So: as far as his words "I've got nothing better to do," couldn't those be the words of someone who knows he will die? After all, if you know you're going to be taken outside and shot, what do you have that's better to do than to kill the guy who's about to kill you? Especially if he's caused so many problems for you in the past. Indy has nothing to do at that point except to be led outside somewhere and be killed! They're just words of anger.

As far as it being Sallah's children who stop Indy from shooting Belloq, if you watch the scene closely, after Indy reaches for his gun, the Arabs and Nazis all pull out their guns and Indy freezes. This is a brief moment BEFORE the children come in. Yes, Indy is not going to shoot if children might be harmed, but he made the decision to not pull his gun out of its holster and freeze BEFORE the children came in. Watch that scene closely. It's very quick but you will see it.

And finally I don't think Sallah's "Life goes on" comment was said because he felt Indy was suicidal. Again, how many times have we had a girlfriend break up with us or lost a relative only to have a friend say the exact same thing to us? It's said not because we're suicidal, but because we're sad at that moment and need to get out of that depression because life DOES go on and we can't spend it moping around and missing out on all sorts of good things. That, I believe, is Sallah's motivation.

The whole scene depends on whether Indy knows he will be killed. If he doesn't think he will be killed, then I would agree he is being suicidal in that moment. But if he DOES know he is going to be killed, which I believe is obvious and I think impossible to argue against, then it's hard to think he is being suicidal there because it is so out of his character. It's an "If I'm going down I'm taking you wth me" sort of thing.
 

Mickiana

Well-known member
I don't think Indy is thinking, "I'm going to get killed here and now" in the bar scene. It's hard to say what the verbal stream is that's going on in his head. He is utterly miserable, he is partially drunk, but he is alert enough to hear what Belloq is saying and to reply aptly enough.

Also, Belloq is indicating Indy's demise, but it seems a bit benign. He leaves that subject about Indy being a close and similar adversary and then gets on to what really matters to him - getting the Ark and connecting with God! He is desperate to share this passion, this obsession with Indy. Indy is a better retriever of artefacts as he is willing to take risks and do the dirty work and Belloq is good at taking advantage of that, because the end justifies those means for Rene. They are both after fortune and glory, it's just that Rene is willing to let Indy do the work and he just takes it from him.

I don't think Belloq wanted to kill Indy as much as the Germans would have, in fact I don't think he wanted Indy dead at all. He virtually needs Indy. Indy's a better archaeologist (in the rogue sense) and I feel this is what drives Belloq to compete. He has an ego that needs to win even if it means stealing from a competitor such as Indy.

Even when he seals him up in the Well of the Souls, he could have easily grabbed a machine gun and riddled him from above. But he doesn't. He leaves him to his fate, allowing Indy to use his vast resources of survival. It was almost like a dare: "I won't kill you outright, but I will lock you up and the rest is up to you." is how Belloq's thinking seems to be. In fact, he probably admires Indy which both conflicts with and fuels his need to compete with him. I'm taking a leap with this supposition, but given their history I'm not sure what else to think.

Back to the bar scene, it is kind of strange how Indy just suddenly resorts to the threat of murder, to pulling his gun, after listening to Rene. What part of Belloq's speech drove Indy to this extreme reaction? His cutting and probably truthful descriptions of how similar they are, the snide comments of how he, Rene, is a better archaeologist, how Marion's death was really Indy's fault, perhaps just Marion's 'death', or that Rene was just on a crazy trip of wanting to talk to God? Whatever it was, it showed Indy reaching the end of his tether in that particular moment.

So, our contention continues, but I am enjoying pulling this issue apart. This discussion is raising more questions than answers for me.
 

mathmat

New member
Hi Mickiana. Thank you for your response! I have some thoughts.

Mickiana said:
I don't think Indy is thinking, "I'm going to get killed here and now" in the bar scene. It's hard to say what the verbal stream is that's going on in his head. He is utterly miserable, he is partially drunk, but he is alert enough to hear what Belloq is saying and to reply aptly enough.

Why don't you believe Indy thinks he's going to die? For me, I think it is obvious to Indy that he is to be killed. He may be drunk and miserable, but he's not stupid. Belloq has already tried to kill him twice in the movie, both times convincingly. If I saw my arch enemy that had tried to kill me twice sitting in a bar with his henchmen behind me, the first thought I'd have was that I would be killed. I find it hard to think anybody would think otherwise, especially when he makes comments about me being killed. (New adversary, etc.)

Mickiana said:
Also, Belloq is indicating Indy's demise, but it seems a bit benign. He leaves that subject about Indy being a close and similar adversary and then gets on to what really matters to him - getting the Ark and connecting with God! He is desperate to share this passion, this obsession with Indy. Indy is a better retriever of artefacts as he is willing to take risks and do the dirty work and Belloq is good at taking advantage of that, because the end justifies those means for Rene. They are both after fortune and glory, it's just that Rene is willing to let Indy do the work and he just takes it from him.

As far as Belloq's threat being benign, I disagree. Belloq is a smooth operator and I don't think he would be anything but condescending to Indy. I don't see it in Belloq's character to be anything but that. Regarding the Ark discussion, I think Belloq does have some respect for Indy, but I also think he wants to gloat to Indy. "It's within my reach" he says. But this is also for the viewer. It gives the scene a steady rise to the point where Indy goes for his gun. Anything else would be boring.

Mickiana said:
I don't think Belloq wanted to kill Indy as much as the Germans would have, in fact I don't think he wanted Indy dead at all. He virtually needs Indy. Indy's a better archaeologist (in the rogue sense) and I feel this is what drives Belloq to compete. He has an ego that needs to win even if it means stealing from a competitor such as Indy.

I just keep thinking to the opening scene when he gives 30 or so Hovitos the sign to cut Indy's throat. That's VERY convincing that he wants him dead. Indy ran away when Belloq's back was turned. Indy is not going to try to escape if he doesn't think he's in danger of being killed. That, combined with the attack in the streets (which Indy blames Belloq for) seems quite clear that Belloq wants him dead. Indy was being shot at with machine guns, not to mention attacked with swords.

Mickiana said:
Even when he seals him up in the Well of the Souls, he could have easily grabbed a machine gun and riddled him from above. But he doesn't. He leaves him to his fate, allowing Indy to use his vast resources of survival. It was almost like a dare: "I won't kill you outright, but I will lock you up and the rest is up to you." is how Belloq's thinking seems to be. In fact, he probably admires Indy which both conflicts with and fuels his need to compete with him. I'm taking a leap with this supposition, but given their history I'm not sure what else to think.

I think this scene is just for story purposes. If you kill Indy the movie is over. It's like the old Batman TV show. The villains always put Batman in a trap but left without watching him die. They clearly wanted Batman dead, but that was again just for story purposes. If characters behaved the way they ought to many movies would be uninteresting and over in an hour. That's where suspension of disbelief comes in.

Mickiana said:
Back to the bar scene, it is kind of strange how Indy just suddenly resorts to the threat of murder, to pulling his gun, after listening to Rene. What part of Belloq's speech drove Indy to this extreme reaction? His cutting and probably truthful descriptions of how similar they are, the snide comments of how he, Rene, is a better archaeologist, how Marion's death was really Indy's fault, perhaps just Marion's 'death', or that Rene was just on a crazy trip of wanting to talk to God? Whatever it was, it showed Indy reaching the end of his tether in that particular moment.

Well Indy's immediate reaction when he first saw Belloq was "I ought to kill you right now." Why didn't he? Well for starters he had a bottle in his gun hand and I believe didn't think he had time to drop the bottle and draw and shoot Belloq before being shot. He says "These Arabs don't care if we kill each other." which suggests if Indy shot Belloq he knows he'd be shot by Belloq's Nazi henchmen. Who else would shoot Indy after he shot Belloq? Belloq would be dead.

But again this was for story purposes. The exposition into how Belloq and Indy were similar as well as different was necessary for the audience. When the exposition was done, Indy went for his gun.

I've realized that I have to think not only in terms of what is happening on screen, but also on a meta-level. That is, understanding the motivations of the filmmakers to make an interesting story as well as the characters. Again this is where suspension of disbelief has to come in.

Mickiana said:
So, our contention continues, but I am enjoying pulling this issue apart. This discussion is raising more questions than answers for me.

Ultimately I just have a huge problem with Indy losing the will to live, even for a moment. It's just WAY out of character and never seen in any other scene in any other movie.

It just doesn't make sense that after losing the will to live a couple hours later he's all excited and focused on the headpiece in the old man's home and doesn't seem to bothered by anything that's happened before! That, as well as my argument that he knows he will die when meeting Belloq and the motivations of the filmmakers make me believe that it was, as I said in my other post, "If I'm going down I'm taking you with me."
 

Mickiana

Well-known member
Belloq took indy's gun at the Chachapoyan temple. He could have just shot him point blank. He doesn't. He gloats, he shows off and then lets the natives go after him. He may or may not care if they catch him and do whatever to him. It's almost like he gives Indy that chance to get away so that Indy can have another chance to be outdone in the future by the scheming Rene. Ditto for the Well of the Souls scene. And at the end on the way to the altar when Indy surrenders to Rene's overwhelming logic, he doesn't have him executed there and then. He has him tied up so he can watch Rene in all his glory of claiming the real prize: communication with God.

Rene had every opportunity to kill him. He doesn't. Belloq is not a killer as far as we know. And as far as wanting Indy dead, he at least seems ambivalent. I don't believe he wants him dead.

Belloq is not intent on eradicating his competition. He uses them. He lets others take out his competition, if necessary. He doesn't do dirty work. If the competition survives, they live to be used by Rene another day. Rene is a bit of a sociopath. And as Rene pointed out, so is Indy.

Indy is a killer and was prepared momentarily to kill Rene and to go with him, but it was momentary and it was an extension of character. Being an extension of character momentarily was part of the story. What's the good of a character, especially a leading one, that doesn't change or show the capacity for change? The fact that he was back on the job later, all focussed and excited, doesn't mean that hours before he had hit rock bottom. That just meant he recovered. Indy is a hard ass, but some of his mostly hidden frailties were shown in the bar scene. Mind you, he is still a hard ass there, as he threatens to take his adversary with him.
 

mathmat

New member
Hi Mickiana. Thanks again for your reply.

Mickiana said:
Belloq took indy's gun at the Chachapoyan temple. He could have just shot him point blank. He doesn't. He gloats, he shows off and then lets the natives go after him. He may or may not care if they catch him and do whatever to him. It's almost like he gives Indy that chance to get away so that Indy can have another chance to be outdone in the future by the scheming Rene. Ditto for the Well of the Souls scene. And at the end on the way to the altar when Indy surrenders to Rene's overwhelming logic, he doesn't have him executed there and then. He has him tied up so he can watch Rene in all his glory of claiming the real prize: communication with God.

Rene had every opportunity to kill him. He doesn't. Belloq is not a killer as far as we know. And as far as wanting Indy dead, he at least seems ambivalent. I don't believe he wants him dead.

Well if Belloq shot Indy in South America the movie would be over! Same thing in the Well of the Souls. That's the way of showing Belloq wants Indy dead without having the movie last only 10 minutes or an hour: by trying to kill him indirectly. Same as in those old Batman episodes. I don't see that as ambivalence. I see that as showing the motivation of the villain and still having a movie to watch. This sort of thing happens in many movies. It's clear the villain wants the hero dead but sends his goons or does it indirectly so we the audience have a movie to enjoy.

And who's to say he wouldn't have killed Indy after opening the Ark and seeing what was in it? I have no doubt if the Ark didn't do what it did then Indy would have been killed afterwards. Also it seems to me that if you're about to open the most sacred and holy of artifacts and "talk to God" the last thing you're going to do is taint the ceremony by murdering someone...

Mickiana said:
Belloq is not intent on eradicating his competition. He uses them. He lets others take out his competition, if necessary. He doesn't do dirty work. If the competition survives, they live to be used by Rene another day. Rene is a bit of a sociopath. And as Rene pointed out, so is Indy.

That's exactly my previous point. He lets others do it. But with the goal of not ending the movie abruptly.

Mickiana said:
Indy is a killer and was prepared momentarily to kill Rene and to go with him, but it was momentary and it was an extension of character. Being an extension of character momentarily was part of the story. What's the good of a character, especially a leading one, that doesn't change or show the capacity for change? The fact that he was back on the job later, all focussed and excited, doesn't mean that hours before he had hit rock bottom. That just meant he recovered. Indy is a hard ass, but some of his mostly hidden frailties were shown in the bar scene. Mind you, he is still a hard ass there, as he threatens to take his adversary with him.

I agree that you can be in a state of depression and feel better soon after. I just have a hard time accepting that someone can go from genuinely having lost the will to live to being fine in a couple hours.

I do believe Belloq wants Indy dead. And I gave my reasons as to why above. But my other point is whether or not INDY thinks Belloq wants him dead. And that's the centerpiece of my analysis of the bar scene. I DO believe Indy believes Belloq wants him dead. For the simple fact that Belloq has tried to kill him twice before they meet in the bar (not to mention the threats Belloq makes there.)

1.) Why would Indy run away from Belloq in South America if he didn't think he was going to die? Seems obvious.

2.) Indy blames Belloq for the Cairo street attack. That's obvious from their initial exchange when they meet in the bar.

So this is why I think Indy believes Belloq wants him dead in the bar scene. Whether or not Belloq "really" wants Indy dead is not the issue to Indy. (Although I do believe he wants Indy dead.) All that matters is what Indy thinks. I don't think Indy took the Hovitos trying to kill him as half-hearted, nor the attack in the streets of Cairo.

You're quite intelligent, Mickiana, and you make me think things through very carefully. :)
 

Mickiana

Well-known member
Of course Indy doesn't get killed, but it's not just to avoid the movie finishing after 10 minutes. Indy will never get killed. He always just makes it through. Some of his adversaries are intent on really finishing him off asap, while others are of two minds.

Belloq's relationship with Indy has history prior to the Raiders plot. That is obvious in the story of the movie and the book by Campbell Black. It's more interesting to have an ongoing duel with an adversary. All-out attempts to wipe out the protagonist on the part of the main antagonist is a boring idea.

Belloq is not that simple in his approach to his old nemesis. He has a love/hate relationship with him. He admires Indy while conspiring to cheat him. He competes with him and claims to be the superior one between them. Belloq has thought of their own true natures, the similarities and differences between them, more than Indy has bothered to.

His relationship with Indy brings a complexity to Indy's life that Indy doesn't want, but nevertheless has cope with it. It comes with the territory of being a good (albeit rogue) archaeologist. He sparks up competitiveness with his colleagues. Forrestal was a competitive colleague but we don't know too much about him. 'Colleague' might be too familiar a term for Forrestal and Belloq was definitely not a colleague.

It's hard to say exactly why Indy threatens to kill Belloq, both at the moment he sees Rene smoking on the hookah and when he actually goes for his gun. My guess is it has to be a combination of their history where Rene has cheated him out of the prize, Marion's 'death', a bit of alcohol and plain pissed off with Rene siding on the Germans and all of them making his life hell. But, like all good stories, it doesn't quite go how you might think and takes a neat twist. Would Indy have killed him? We won't ever know for sure. He may have only wanted to make Rene sh*t himself and I'm sure he nearly did that! But he did look serious - for a moment.

Did Rene Belloq really want Indy dead? Maybe, but he didn't really care either way I think. I tend to think more so not. It's more interesting to have a more complex take on their relationship and I think that's what Lawrence Kasdan intended. Belloq was to be a pain in Indy's ass until he brought about his own demise. In the end he wanted too much and God smote his ass!
 

mathmat

New member
Hi Mickiana. Thanks again for your reply. I agree with most everything you said, especially the complex relationship between Indy and Belloq. It's a good analysis and it does make it interesting for sure. Much more interesting than your typical hero/villain we see in the movies!

Although I'm more concerned about what is going on in Indy's head than Belloq's, I have one last point about Belloq wanting to kill Indy and why I think he does want to:

Belloq says "Next time it will take more than children to save you" when Sallah's kids rescue Indy. Save him from what? Seems to me the only thing is to save him from being killed. When Indy leaves the bar you see Belloq look at him, then look back at the Nazi henchmen who is now out of view, but it's clear he's looking in his direction, then look back at Indy walking out. Belloq has a look of real disappointment on his face. What is he so disappointed about if it's not that Indy wasn't killed at the bar? Not to mention the next scene is the Monkey Man trying to poison Indy with the dates. Let's try to kill him again. Also, while Belloq and Indy are speaking you can see Belloq's eyes repeatedly going over Indy's head and looking behind him. And who was there that he was looking at standing behind Indy? A Nazi henchman.

But I'm just curious why you believe Indy doesn't think he will die when he sees Belloq sitting there at the bar? No matter how I look at it I can't see how Indy doesn't think he will be killed. Now mind you, I don't think Indy believes he will be shot in the bar, but rather taken out somewhere. Joe Brody above made an excellent point about that.

Again the facts: Indy makes a run for it when Belloq has his back turned to him in South America. Clearly he thinks Belloq is going to kill him. There is just no other reason for his running away. And Belloq does send the Hovitos with spears and poison arrows after him. Furthermore, I think that this scene reveals that Belloq has tried to kill Indy before! That's exactly why he makes a run for it! He knows what Belloq has done in the past. That is, try to kill Indy.

Then the Cairo streets. When Belloq says "It was not I who brought the girl into this business" he's telling Indy not to blame him for Marion's "death." That makes it clear Indy believes Belloq responsible for the attack on the streets. So why when he sees Belloq, along with his Nazi henchmen, who stand right behind Indy when he sits down, would he not think that he would be taken out and killed? Furthermore, the threatening comments made by Belloq about how it was ending for them and the new adversary would just seem to substantiate this more in Indy's mind. Indy may have been drunk, but I believe the sight of Belloq together with his Nazi henchmen quickly sobered him up.

So I'm wondering, given all this, why you believe Indy could not be certain that he was going to die? I simply can't see it.

Thanks!
 

Mickiana

Well-known member
I haven't really addressed the issue of whether Indy believes Belloq would kill him, primarily because I'm not sure. I have stated I believe Rene more so wants Indy around to exploit on another day, but he gives Indy a good run for money (literally) when he can.

Indy knows perhaps best that Rene Belloq is ruthless, ambitious, intelligent, unscrupulous and highly competitive, just like himself. He would know that Rene is capable of acting fatally towards Indy, but also knows Rene would never deal the fatal blow. So, I agree with you that Indy believes/knows/is wary of Rene's proclivities, but they are competitors in archaeology, not duelling swords until death.

Indy runs from the Hovitos' spears and darts and so is indirectly running from Belloq. Here, Belloq may not have cared if Indy made it or not. It created a chance though for Rene to give the Hovitos the slip and make off with the idol, cheating both Indy and the natives. I'm extrapolating here, but we are just guessing overall.

I will still abide by my argument that Rene is not especially invested in seeing Indy die. He is ambivalent about that. He is a bit surprised when Jones turns up again each time he thinks he has given Indy the flick. He is not distraught but is frustrated. I bet he half suspects Jones to have survived what he throws at him before he next sees Jones alive and well. It's a pattern they have developed.

In the bar, I think Indy knows he's in trouble, but he is more concerned with loathing Belloq on the platform of his misery. The Germans though, like Rene, seem reticent about actually killing him themselves as they each use henchmen to do the dirty work. If Indy really was in trouble, if there really was an intent to kill him, would his assailants have let children get in the way? It's wonderfully ambiguous as to whether Indy was close to dying in the bar as another twist delivers him by the skin of his teeth to safety, depriving us the audience of knowing for sure how close he was to any harm.

All up, I think Rene just wanted to talk to him, especially after snaffling his girl while making him think she was dead. ;)
 

mathmat

New member
Hi Mickiana. Again thanks for your feedback!

Mickiana said:
Indy runs from the Hovitos' spears and darts and so is indirectly running from Belloq. Here, Belloq may not have cared if Indy made it or not. It created a chance though for Rene to give the Hovitos the slip and make off with the idol, cheating both Indy and the natives. I'm extrapolating here, but we are just guessing overall.

My point on this: I think he is running directly from Belloq. It seems obvious Indy thinks Belloq has the Hovitos under his control. Also, they don't go after Indy until Belloq gives the sign to cut his throat. As far as Belloq using that as a diversion, I'm sure he had multiple plans to get out of there regardless of what happened with Indy. He's too smart. Besides, when back at his college, Indy is convinced Belloq escaped with the Idol.

Mickiana said:
In the bar, I think Indy knows he's in trouble, but he is more concerned with loathing Belloq on the platform of his misery.

What trouble do you think Indy knows he is in? That he will be killed? If I believe someone has repeatedly tried to kill me and he corners me in a bar with his henchmen and furthermore makes threats, the most prominent thought in my mind is going to be "I'm a dead man."

Mickiana said:
The Germans though, like Rene, seem reticent about actually killing him themselves as they each use henchmen to do the dirty work. If Indy really was in trouble, if there really was an intent to kill him, would his assailants have let children get in the way? It's wonderfully ambiguous as to whether Indy was close to dying in the bar as another twist delivers him by the skin of his teeth to safety, depriving us the audience of knowing for sure how close he was to any harm.

The only time the Nazis use henchmen is in the Cairo street scene. And I think that is just for entertainment. Watching Indy go up against a bunch of swordsman gives us the chance to see him fight with his whip and all. Also they use the Monkey Man to trail Indy. But that's because he blends right in. All spys have to be inconspicuous.

As far as Indy's assailants letting the children get in the way, that's the only way Indy was going to escape! We know Indy has to escape the bar. That's obvious. He has no militia to come in and overpower the gunmen so how else could he have? Granted, it doesn't make logical sense and requires suspension of disbelief, but it's just for the purpose of moving the story along.

___

But to understand what Indy is thinking in the bar I wanted to get another perspective on the scene so I went to the novel by Campbell Black. Now of course the novel is not the movie and I question the level of "canonicity" of the book. But it was authorized by Lucasfilm and the credits to the movie mention it so I have to give it some type of legitimacy. (The other Indy novels and comics I largely dismiss or at most take with a grain of salt.)

(There is a scene with Belloq talking to Dietrich about what to do with Indy. Dietrich asks Belloq if he should go ahead and kill Indy and Belloq agrees. It might be argued that Belloq might be somewhat leary about it, but in the end he agrees. After all, Dietrich was asking Belloq thereby seemingly giving the ultimate decision to Belloq. In the movie I might argue that it's the Nazis who really decide that Indy is to die, especially after what happened at the Raven. That's why when they find out he's in Cairo they send the Monkey Man to follow him and report. The Nazis may be working with Belloq to kill Indy, but I think they're also taking matters into their own hands. They are, after all, the ones in control of the dig.)

As far as the bar scene, although the dialogue is different as well as some other things, the basic idea of the scene is the same. Here Belloq does give the sign to kill Indy, although it seems the shooting would be there in the bar. Also it mentions Indy bracing himself for the shot since his assassins (who it states were Nazis) were stting directly behind him. So this makes it clear Indy was aware of his impending death in the novel. But right then the children come in and Belloq tells his men to lower their weapons claiming "he has a soft spot for dogs and children."

It further states after Indy has escaped Belloq has "an insight hat surprised him vaguely." He was not ready to kill Indy YET. He doesn't care if the kids got killed but hesitated because he wants to see the Ark slip through Indy's fingers. That, and the death of Marion, for Belloq is a fate worse than death for Indy. And he wants Indy to suffer. He wanted "to let the man (Indy) live a little longer." "A little longer" suggests he will kill him later?

But again, I'm not so concerned with what's going on in Belloq's head as what is in Indy's. In the novel Indy knows he will be killed. He "braced himself" for the shot by the assassins seated behind him. (Just as they were standing behind him in the movie.) That tells all.

Again, how "legitimate" you take the novel to be is a personal preferance since a lot is different from the movie. But the fact that the credits to the movie mention it tells me that it is there to expand on the story.
 

Mickiana

Well-known member
The novel does extrapolate on the movie in order to get some length into it. From the movie: Indy knows he's taking his life into his own hands in many situations. It's par for the course.

BUT:

If Indy knew he was most likely going to be killed in the bar where Belloq was, don't you think he walked into a bit too nonchalantly for that? I know he was drunk to some degree, but he wasn't staggeringly or blitheringly drunk. He is told, "The man in the bar wants to speak to you." And he doesn't know who it is that wants to talk to him. He even asks one of the Arabs standing there if he's the one who wants to talk to him. He then gets a sense, some vibe, perhaps the smell of the hookah as Rene is blowing it directly at the back of his head, and Indy whirls around to see his nemesis and then passionately threatens him.

So, who knows if Indy feels like he is willingly walking into a death trap? To me he seems unaware of danger. Sure, there are a couple of henchmen behind him, but Rene is there to talk, to tease, to share, to humiliate and to obsess. He indicates vaguely of Indy becoming absent in his life, "Where should I find a...", and yes, it might mean he's got a definite plan to take him out the back and plug him, but that is not revealed.

Rene wants to talk and Indy knows this, but Indy gets to the point of being p****d off enough to rashly and directly threaten to kill. If he had have shot Rene, there's no doubt he would have received a bullet in the back from one or more of the henchmen. But that is extrapolating outside the bounds of the movie and we are creating another story.

Given their history and how Rene likes to play with his opposition and not get rid of them, at least with Indy, I think Indy knows this and also knows that as long as Rene is around, he will have Rene as a constant agitation in his life, trying to steal from him. But Rene goes and gazes upon the inexplicable and exits from Indy's life by his own actions.
 

mathmat

New member
Mickiana said:
If Indy knew he was most likely going to be killed in the bar where Belloq was, don't you think he walked into a bit too nonchalantly for that? I know he was drunk to some degree, but he wasn't staggeringly or blitheringly drunk. He is told, "The man in the bar wants to speak to you." And he doesn't know who it is that wants to talk to him. He even asks one of the Arabs standing there if he's the one who wants to talk to him. He then gets a sense, some vibe, perhaps the smell of the hookah as Rene is blowing it directly at the back of his head, and Indy whirls around to see his nemesis and then passionately threatens him.

According to the script, when the Nazis pick up Indy, he thinks to himself that he is too drunk to kill or be killed so he goes off with them. (Which to me suggests he knows he's in danger of his life.) It seems to me that anyone watching the movie at that scene is going to immediately think "uh oh!" especially immediately after seeing the Monkey Man pull up. And that could be why he threatens Belloq and doesn't shoot him when he sees him sitting there. Too drunk to get off a shot before getting shot himself, as you said would happen. Belloq even says "Please sit down before you fall down," aware of his drunken state.

Mickiana said:
So, who knows if Indy feels like he is willingly walking into a death trap? To me he seems unaware of danger. Sure, there are a couple of henchmen behind him, but Rene is there to talk, to tease, to share, to humiliate and to obsess. He indicates vaguely of Indy becoming absent in his life, "Where should I find a...", and yes, it might mean he's got a definite plan to take him out the back and plug him, but that is not revealed.

I believe he's just too drunk to show that he is in danger. That doesn't mean he's not thinking it, as it does say in the script. Drunk people generally don't act logically.:D So given the script, I believe that Indy knew he was in danger. Just because he asks that Arab "You looking for me?" doesn't mean he doesn't think he will die. He's just confused as to what will happen and how. But that becomes clear when he sees Belloq. And being drunk could be why he responds disdainfully "try the local sewer." He knows he will die and that's the best he could get out with all the alcohol in him.

Mickiana said:
Rene wants to talk and Indy knows this, but Indy gets to the point of being p****d off enough to rashly and directly threaten to kill. If he had have shot Rene, there's no doubt he would have received a bullet in the back from one or more of the henchmen. But that is extrapolating outside the bounds of the movie and we are creating another story.

Extrapolating is the whole point of this discussion and why I started this thread. And what makes it fun to talk about.

___

But I just had an interesting idea that I'd like to share with you. Maybe you are right in thinking that Belloq is ambivalent about killing Indy. Maybe he does in some way want him around. It's definitely a debatable question and I can see your point. :)

Now the Nazis are in charge of the dig and Belloq is just a hired hand. Indy refers to Hitler as Belloq's boss. Granted, he has a lot of say, but ultimately it's Dietrich who is in charge of the dig. That is seen when he throws Marion into the pit against Belloq's wishes, when he sends Toht to interrogate her, etc. Dietrich is running the show for Hitler.

Now somebody wants Indy dead and if it's not necessarily Belloq then it's obviously the Nazis. Indy prevented the Nazis from getting the headpiece at the Raven. That makes me think that when Toht returned to Cairo he said Indy is on his way and we must eliminate him to prevent him from causing more trouble. That's where the monkey and Monkey Man come in. The attack on the streets is at the very least orchestrated by the Nazis. Whether or not Belloq had any say we don't know. But we do see Nazis giving the order to Arabs to go kill Indy.

Which brings us to the bar scene. Right before the Nazis find Indy you see the Monkey Man pull up on his motorcycle, clearly indicating he led the Nazis to that bar (and suggesting, I think, that there will be an attempt on Indy's life to keep consistency with the Monkey Man's actions.) Now like the script says, Indy thinks he is too drunk to kill or be killed, so he goes and sees Belloq. Yes he knows he wants to talk since Belloq asks him to sit. Then Belloq basically tells him that Indy's days are numbered.

So maybe it's the Nazis who want Indy dead and Belloq is just relaying that the Nazis are going to take Indy out when he talks about a new adversary, etc. It's ambiguous if Belloq really wants him dead (as you elaborated why very thoughtfully) but the Nazis have no care for Indy or for anyone. To them he is just a nuisance and must be eliminated.

So here is my argument as to why Indy was going to be killed at the bar (by the Nazis), or more likely taken from the bar and killed. After Indy escapes the bar the Monkey Man is waiting there to trail him and he goes off to poison him. Now if the Nazis tried to kill Indy in the streets, and then try to poison him immediately after he escapes the bar, how could their motivation be anything other than wanting to kill him at the bar!? They're not going to just shake Indy's hand and say goodbye and let him go and them immediately try to kill him again! That would be completely silly. That's exactly why the Monkey Man is waiting outside the bar! If Indy somehow escapes the assassination attempt, trail him and try to assassinate him again!

So as for why Indy draws his gun (which is really my ultimate question) I think it's a combination of anger at Belloq and himself for Marion's "death," Nazi henchmen standing behind him with guns, being drunk (which loosened his inhibitions), and the fact that he's sitting and maybe a little more in control of his motor skills. Like I said, "If I'm going, you're coming with me."

I'd love your feedback Mickiana! And anybody elses of course.
 

Mickiana

Well-known member
You've thought this through far more than I have. Tying in the Monkey Man to the build up of his assassination attempt with poison is a good explanation of the intent on the part of the Nazis to kill Indy in the bar scene.

But it was an interesting dynamic then between the Nazis and Belloq. They might have just wanted to quickly dispose of Indy in the name of efficiency, but they allowed Belloq to have his little chin wag session. Belloq has no allegiance to the Nazis. As you say, he is just a hired hand. But Rene has a lot invested in finding the Ark and it's this he wanted to share with Indy. This is where he actually wanted to appeal to Jones, to see if Jones shared the same obsession. He wanted to find a 'compatriot' in Indy.

But Indy wanted to see if this Ark was authentic and contained "the actual stone tablets Moses brought down out of Mt Herob...". He was interested in its historical value and having the fortune and glory of finding and displaying it. Rene obviously had these intentions as well, but there was his obsession too of phoning through to his maker.

As to how much Indy thought he was in danger in the bar, I cannot be sure. I find it hard to reconcile how blithe he was with any feeling he might have been harbouring as to his life being ended any moment. He was fed up, depressed, drunk and p****d off with Rene. He may not have been thinking about the danger too much.
 

mathmat

New member
Mickiana said:
You've thought this through far more than I have. Tying in the Monkey Man to the build up of his assassination attempt with poison is a good explanation of the intent on the part of the Nazis to kill Indy in the bar scene.

But it was an interesting dynamic then between the Nazis and Belloq. They might have just wanted to quickly dispose of Indy in the name of efficiency, but they allowed Belloq to have his little chin wag session. Belloq has no allegiance to the Nazis. As you say, he is just a hired hand. But Rene has a lot invested in finding the Ark and it's this he wanted to share with Indy. This is where he actually wanted to appeal to Jones, to see if Jones shared the same obsession. He wanted to find a 'compatriot' in Indy.

But Indy wanted to see if this Ark was authentic and contained "the actual stone tablets Moses brought down out of Mt Herob...". He was interested in its historical value and having the fortune and glory of finding and displaying it. Rene obviously had these intentions as well, but there was his obsession too of phoning through to his maker.

As to how much Indy thought he was in danger in the bar, I cannot be sure. I find it hard to reconcile how blithe he was with any feeling he might have been harbouring as to his life being ended any moment. He was fed up, depressed, drunk and p****d off with Rene. He may not have been thinking about the danger too much.

At this point my opinion on why Indy felt he was threatened in the bar was due to Belloq's comments, the "uh oh" when the Nazis pick him up, but mostly from what it says in the script about Indy not being in any condition to kill or be killed.

The only reason Kasdan would put something like that in there would be to indicate that Indy knew there was threat. If some little old lady asked him the time or some kid asked him for money, etc., Kasdan wouldn't have put a line like that in there.

__


Also I wanted to mention something about the Hovitos scene and Belloq trying to kill Indy. I've thought a lot about your analysis of the relationship between the two. Maybe Indy was running because he was afraid that the Indians might take matters into their own hands. And Belloq sending them after Indy could have been just to "keep up an appearance" with the Hovitos. After all, Indy did trespass on their sacred ground and if Belloq just let him go that might not go over too well with the Hovitos. After all it there is a scene in the script (during the bar scene, no less) that mentions Belloq never got away with the Idol.
 
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