2008 Indy Games

oki9Sedo

New member
At times the line between "rip-off" and "homage" can be blurred.

Indiana Jones is an homage without question. Like I said in another thread, its has more than enough ideas and iconic features of its own to be unique in and of itself, and it updated it for the 1980s with modern effects (but without changing their period setting and spirit).

Tomb Raider and Rick O'Connell from The Mummy are blatant rip-offs of Indiana Jones (although he was still an entertaining character).
 

Finn

Moderator
Staff member
oki9Sedo said:
At times the line between "rip-off" and "homage" can be blurred.

Indiana Jones is an homage without question. Like I said in another thread, its has more than enough ideas and iconic features of its own to be unique in and of itself, and it updated it for the 1980s with modern effects (but without changing their period setting and spirit).

Tomb Raider and Rick O'Connell from The Mummy are blatant rip-offs of Indiana Jones (although he was still an entertaining character).
I agree, up to the part with Tomb Raider. Even though I find the movies lame and blatant and the game series should have stopped a few installments ago (well, the couple of newest ones were actually moderately enjoyable), the concept of Lara is still original enough not to be called a rip-off. People just do that too eagerly.

Let's imagine for a second that one of us was to write a pulp adventure story. The author enjoys the genre immensenly, so of course our guy wants to load it with exotic locations, death traps and femme fatales. The point is, however he creates his own characters and a plot line that doesn't openly resemble any already existing stories so that it's clearly the author's creation.

Let's also imagine that this same fellow somehow gets it published. Along come a random ravener, reads it and says: "It was good, man. For a rip-off." Ouch. Nice. Thanks man, I really appreciate your comments.

Now, if this same guy instead just walks out of a cinema after seeing a new Indy film and figures that this is going to be a hot topic for the next couple of years... a bulb gets lit above his head and he heads home for some so-called "creative development"... well, that is ripping off.
 

Vlad Dracula

New member
I personally don't see Drake's Fortune as a rip off of Indiana Jones.

For starters, just game play mechanics wise, the game doesn't feel like you are controlling Indiana Jones. The vast majority of the combat is done in a Gears of War type of take cover and shoot. Indy has always been more of a hand to hand fighter.

The characters (heroes and villains) also all have their own unique personalities and are very well animated and voice acted. It's a great game and homages the genre nicely. But Drake doesn't rip off either Indy or Lara. It really stands on its own.
 

Lambonius

New member
I think a big part of the reason people were especially quick to label Lara an Indy rip-off was that fact that Tomb Raider was the type of game (completely innovative in it's time, as well) that they all expected to see Indiana Jones in. Even though the characters and storylines were largely original, you always felt like the game would have been just a little better if it were Indy and not Lara. At least I know I did. On the other hand, of course, my teenage hormones got the better of me and I soon found Lara to be quite endearing. ;) Seriously though, lets not forget that by the time Infernal Machine finally came out, IT was a truly blatant rip-off of Tomb Raider, to the point where I'd say it hurt the game as whole.

Edit: Come to think of it, I remember reading a lot about Tomb Raider when it came out, and the developers openly acknowledged it as going for an Indiana Jones feel, even labelling some elements of the game (rolling boulders for example) as direct homages. If anything, I'd say Tomb Raider falls more into the realm of paying respect than ripping off. My opinion, anyway.
 
Last edited:

snake_surprise

New member
Thanks for clarifying the earlier ambiguity, Finn.

Finn said:
This genre of adventure pulp tends to have some basic principles concerning characters and plot devices (like a masculine hero, pretty girl, exotic locations etc) you can find in every other piece before and after Indy.
Agreed. But I think there is a vein of this genre that Indy really captured, that other properties capitalize on because it works. Specifics thereof are probably for a different thread (as if this is not heading off initial topic already). I think we are generally on the same page with this, but since our experiences and mindsets/worldviews of this genre are simply different, the perception of a game like Drake is going to be different. If Joe Schmoe consumer (who knows next to nothing compared to us on the history of this genre) sees Drake's in the case at Target, buys it, and declares to his friends that it reminds him of "those Indiana Jones" movies, then his perception isn't necessarily incorrect. I am referring to the casual gamer who would play this game...the gamer who would see something comparable as mainstream as Indy and not novels from the 70s in Cussler's work, or old Quartermain serials, etc...

Finn said:
Drake's Fortune employs these same general devices, yeah, but up to my impression there's also enough differences to talk it as a standalone genre piece.
Yes, but I maintain that without Indy this genre would be at a loss, and a game like this would maybe not get made...at least in the creative skin that it is in. Who knows.

Finn said:
As far as Indy goes, Spielberg and Lucas have themselves openly said that they were just trying to imitate that old matinee serial style.
Correct. But what they did was take the best bits of all these serials they are alluding too and combined them into a well oiled machine. Several aspects of Indy that are pretty original are the ones I am also speaking of. Those aspects are another discussion like I said earlier.

Finn said:
The 1985 version of King Solomon's Mines is a good example of something that goes little too far in similarity.
Don't forget Romancing the Stone, and its horrible sequel in Jewel of the Nile.
 

Finn

Moderator
Staff member
Lambonius said:
Come to think of it, I remember reading a lot about Tomb Raider when it came out, and the developers openly acknowledged it as going for an Indiana Jones feel, even labelling some elements of the game (rolling boulders for example) as direct homages. If anything, I'd say Tomb Raider falls more into the realm of paying respect than ripping off. My opinion, anyway.
Agreed. Original Tomb Raider the game was popular mainly because it was what it was, a hugely innovative and good video game for its time. Its plot elements paid huge respects to the Indy films, but they didn't define that genre of gaming. Actually, if we're to go down this road, we'd actually find Indy game the Infernal Machine little too much a TR rip-off, not vice-versa. The movies were made to cash in on the success of the games, not Indy.

Just a curiosity, but perhaps one of the things that makes us so hyped about Tomb Raider is the kind of in-joke it employs somewhere as Lara comes across a skeleton clad in too familiar gear caught in a booby trap in some long-lost chamber... Kind of funny though, as I can throw from the top of my head few other games that employ the same joke. And Tomb Raider, actually wasn't even the first one.

***

The Mummy is a mixed bag to me. A few similarities, a few original ideas, so I'm not going to comment on that. Except its timing is delicate, as it came out in 1999 and honestly, I don't recall any good adventure films coming out during the nineties. They were clearly trying to breath new life into the genre. In which they succeeded, judging by the fact we got films like Tomb Raider and National Treasure shortly afterwards. One of the things we could wonder is that would even KotCS be getting to us if The Mummy hadn't shown us there's still market for adventure.

snake_surprise said:
Thanks for clarifying the earlier ambiguity, Finn.
The pleasure was all mine.

snake_surprise said:
Agreed. But I think there is a vein of this genre that Indy really captured, that other properties capitalize on because it works. Specifics thereof are probably for a different thread (as if this is not heading off initial topic already). I think we are generally on the same page with this, but since our experiences and mindsets/worldviews of this genre are simply different, the perception of a game like Drake is going to be different. If Joe Schmoe consumer (who knows next to nothing compared to us on the history of this genre) sees Drake's in the case at Target, buys it, and declares to his friends that it reminds him of "those Indiana Jones" movies, then his perception isn't necessarily incorrect. I am referring to the casual gamer who would play this game...the gamer who would see something comparable as mainstream as Indy and not novels from the 70s in Cussler's work, or old Quartermain serials, etc...
Lack of information should be no excuse for ignorance. The fact that we have less reference should make us more eager to check out the new evidence presented to us and then reforge the argument if there is need. Or at least that's what I like to think, part from a few religious debates where I've figured the other side's not going to give any ground no matter what you fling at them... but that's something we should definitely NOT start discussing here. Plenty of opportunities for that in archaeology section, though I partially wish no one ever unearths them. Anyway, Joe is probably completely right to say that the game reminds him of Indy, I never wanted to argue that. I simply said that it's likely not proper to call it a rip-off, as that term in my mind has somewhat a negative undertone. It's practically a synonyme for stealing, which drawing from the general pool of genre principles IMO isn't.

snake_surprise said:
Yes, but I maintain that without Indy this genre would be at a loss, and a game like this would maybe not get made...at least in the creative skin that it is in. Who knows.
True. Who knows. Dr. Cussler however would likely still be writing his pieces was there ever Indy or not. But how many of the other pieces that have been brought up in this discussion would have been made... okay, let's admit, maybe not THAT many. In desert, however, the best place to find other people is there where's water. Nothing new in that.

snake_surprise said:
But what they did was take the best bits of all these serials they are alluding too and combined them into a well oiled machine. Several aspects of Indy that are pretty original are the ones I am also speaking of. Those aspects are another discussion like I said earlier.
Have you thought that in similar manner some of the the newer franchises take the best bits of Indy and threw in some of their own ideas to cook up something of their own. Indy draws from someplace, they draw from someplace. As a species, humans aren't as individualistic as they like to think. They tend to emulate. When it comes to defining a rip-off, I like to look into the creator's motives rather than the creation itself.

snake_surprise said:
Don't forget Romancing the Stone, and its horrible sequel in Jewel of the Nile.
I kind of like Romancing the Stone... it's true what you allude, however, there was plenty of market for that kind of movies in the eighties, mostly thanks to Indy. Crocodile Dundee is another fine example. These things are always ambiguous. If we look at the newest Bond flick, Casino Royale, I figure it wouldn't have been made the way it came out without the eventual success of the Jason Bourne franchise. But can we truly call the new Bond a Bourne rip-off as it's part of a lot older franchise? This business is really full of shades of grey if you ask me...
 
And of course there's always just good old cryptomnesia....

I think though that Finn raises some interesting points on Tomb Raider. I've always considered it a rip-off but really when it's spelled out as he has, it really seems less a cash-in than an homage.

And I do really like Tomb Raider, derivative or not. The games, anyway. The first movie was terrible and I haven't dared try the second.

Tomb Raider Legend was excellent. Just played through that last month and it had a very strong Indy vibe... an Indy 3D game done right... only without Indy.


Hopefully Indy 2008 can finally get the formula right. A little of IM, a little ET... and it'd be perfect. Both games just on their own are only... passable.
 

Finn

Moderator
Staff member
ResidentAlien said:
Hopefully Indy 2008 can finally get the formula right. A little of IM, a little ET... and it'd be perfect. Both games just on their own are only... passable.
The biggest flaw in both games wasn't actually in the gameplay mechanics, but the story was rather weak and poorly presented in both occasions.

ET, in my book, is the worst piece of Indy fiction ever created, even surpassing some of the sillier YIJC episodes. It felt like it was simply a background device that enabled the possibility to send Indy into few different parts of the world to beat the crap out of Nazis and other thugs. Euphoria engine, few new combat tricks or huge levels can't save the game if the plot's same kind of jumbled mess as the Emperor's Tomb was.

To further emphasize the point, I'd like to mention games like Max Payne and my absolute number one pet peeve adventure game of all time, Dreamfall. The first one was pretty much one-trick shooter albeit one with good mechanics, yet I guess what really made people play through it was that they wanted to see what happens next. In Dreamfall's case it's even more like that. Heck, it wasn't even a game if you ask me. It was a straightforward tube you just walked on through without having to do nothing more than clicking a button or two in the way. Yet people have mainly positive experiences about it and it received good reviews. Why? Because as it took you through that tube it managed to tell one hell of a story in the process (the ending though made me think I'd just been robbed of $50).

Okay, I just a did a short visit to YouTube, where somebody had actually uploaded all of Drake's Fortune cutscenes. I didn't see a second of actual gameplay, but somehow that didn't hinder from the experience. It was like watching an excellent adventure movie. I was positively surprised and honestly, blown away by the quality of the storytelling. Phenomenal. Nearly as good as... damn, I can't believe I'm going to say this... FoA.

You can find the clips by following this link. Remember to watch them in order.

Stop playing with the new gimmicks, LucasArts. Hire some writers. Your biggest success on the 2000s is Knights of the Old Republic. Go figure why.
 

-INDY-

New member
well, if adventure has a name it must be Indiana Jones...

Indiana Jones defined the concept of Adventure so clearly(danger, thrill, mistakes which may lead to disasters etc) that after seeing the movie whatever we see looks like an Indiana Jones 'copy'. People want to see Adventure in the way they saw Indiana Jones.

Think about it, what is your concept of adventure. If you would be making something adventure related, what would it be? How would you view it?

Nothing is a copy (unless it's verbatim to the original). If you don't believe me, check out the meaning of copy from the dictionary, it should be:
an imitation, reproduction, or transcript of an original
The game you talk about took a conception from Indiana Jones, the rest of the picture and details, the maker painted themselves out of their own imagination, so it would be quite harsh to go as far as calling them rip-offs.

One more thing, (and I don't mean to be rude or anything) we are alluding from the point of this topic a little, and going into useless arguments.

the game may be 'inspired' by Indiana jones.

Now Indiana Jones was inspired by saturday morning serials, now would you call Indiana Jones a ripoff, or copy of those serials.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Finn

Moderator
Staff member
-INDY- said:
One more thing, (and I don't mean to be rude or anything) we are alluding from the point of this topic a little, and going into useless arguments.
I don't see any useless arguments, only healthy discussion. People are meant to disagree, that's natural. It only gets useless when somebody starts digging verbal foxholes with no intention to acknowledge any points the other side makes, no matter how well put they are.
 

-INDY-

New member
Finn said:
I don't see any useless arguments, only healthy discussion. People are meant to disagree, that's natural. It only gets useless when somebody starts digging verbal foxholes with no intention to acknowledge any points the other side makes, no matter how well put they are.
yeah i agree with you with that healthy discussion thing.
 

snake_surprise

New member
Finn said:
Original Tomb Raider the game was popular mainly because it was what it was, a hugely innovative and good video game for its time. Its plot elements paid huge respects to the Indy films, but they didn't define that genre of gaming. Actually, if we're to go down this road, we'd actually find Indy game the Infernal Machine little too much a TR rip-off, not vice-versa. The movies were made to cash in on the success of the games, not Indy.
I agree with all of this. I do think that without Indy, there is no Tomb Raider, and as you mention, without Tomb Raider there would be no Infernal Machine.

In reading interviews with Hal Barwood, he goes on the record by saying how LucasArts/Lucas wanted to capitalize on the Tomb Raider-esque games/engine and scrapped plans for the next Indy graphic adventure (Iron Phoenix), legal issues with Germany and Nazi portrayal aside.

But there are two different issues here: graphical approaches in games and influences thereof, and story material/content/plot devices.

Finn said:
The Mummy is a mixed bag to me.
Same here. My biggest issue is the Brenden Frasier character. I think I can safely use the term 'rip off' here in comparison with Indy (even in the simplest ways including costume, era, etc...). Worst of all, I cannot get over the acting by Fraser...just doesn't fit to me. It was worth watching, but I am over it at the same time.

Finn said:
One of the things we could wonder is that would even KotCS be getting to us if The Mummy hadn't shown us there's still market for adventure.
Again, you open a new can of worms in terms of discussion, Finn. ;)
The Beards have the luxury of putting their name on anything and people will come. The big three making this movie have never really lost together, and with people complaining about the Prequels (me included) and Spielberg's films being more 'earthy' lately, this seems smart to do from a marketing standpoint. Or it could be that Lucas kept pushing his idea and he always gets his way.

Finn said:
Anyway, Joe is probably completely right to say that the game reminds him of Indy, I never wanted to argue that. I simply said that it's likely not proper to call it a rip-off, as that term in my mind has somewhat a negative undertone. It's practically a synonyme for stealing, which drawing from the general pool of genre principles IMO isn't.
That is all I was trying to get across. I know there are nerdier people out there like you and me who know more about this topic and Indy than 99% of the population, but people like us do not matter...its the 99% that matter. As a filmmaker I have to keep reminding myself this. It can work the other way, unfortunately. A film or game can come out with an original idea, but if the general perception is that it is unoriginal, then the material is labeled unfairly...but so be it. Look at The Prestige and The Illusionist. Someone may avoid one, claiming one to be a clone of the other. More research would point out that the stories are based on older written material independent of one another, but alas, people don't care or want to take the time to do the research into that, and for the most part, I don't blame them.

Finn said:
Have you thought that in similar manner some of the the newer franchises take the best bits of Indy and threw in some of their own ideas to cook up something of their own. Indy draws from someplace, they draw from someplace. As a species, humans aren't as individualistic as they like to think. They tend to emulate. When it comes to defining a rip-off, I like to look into the creator's motives rather than the creation itself.
I do think this. However there is some grey area, as another forumer pointed out. I will say though, that Indy takes the best bits of several sources, whereas some newer material in media just takes the best bits from Indy and the rest is just convulsed ideas mixed within. I think of The Mummy in this way.

Finn said:
If we look at the newest Bond flick, Casino Royale, I figure it wouldn't have been made the way it came out without the eventual success of the Jason Bourne franchise. But can we truly call the new Bond a Bourne rip-off as it's part of a lot older franchise? This business is really full of shades of grey if you ask me...
You bring up a great point with Bourne, it certainly impacted the Bond franchise especially from an aesthetic standpoint. But the main elements of Bond have not changed since 1962 (the films).
On an unrelated note, I was talking with a cameraman over the Holidays who is close with the tech crew of the Bourne series and he and I went on and on about the editing and framing of the Bourne movies, in terms of how annoying it can be. They need to pull the camera back, let the action/sequence speak for itself. Anyone can film a fight scene with extreme close ups of flailing arms, legs, etc...and edit with .4 seconds on each shot, 40 shots in a row, and cartoonish sound effects to boot.
Sorry, I digress.
I do really like the Bourne films, for the record.
 

Bjorn Heimdall

Active member
snake_surprise said:
In reading interviews with Hal Barwood, he goes on the record by saying how LucasArts/Lucas wanted to capitalize on the Tomb Raider-esque games/engine and scrapped plans for the next Indy graphic adventure (Iron Phoenix)

Ok now I hate Tomb Raider(n)
 

The_Raiders

Well-known member
I know Lego Indy is for PS2 so I'm defenetly getting that :) but the other Indy game is only for PS3, and X-Box 360:( I'll have to use my dividend check on a 360 this october I guess :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
 

Insomniac

New member
Imagine the Indy on the Wii. Big Nintendo fan. It would be cool if thy redid the series and made the game "Indy the trilogy"you could use the Wiii zapper and be any Indy Hero.:D
 

Deckard

New member
Arab Swordsman said:
Here is a link to the new Vanity Fair article on Star Wars: Force Unleashed. It has some really cool info on how the Euphoria system (which is going to be used in the next Indy game) works. Pretty interesting stuff.

http://www.vanityfair.com/culture/features/2008/03/lucas200803

Yes, the physics of the world around Indy and the ways and abilities to interact are very cool and since none of it is scripted it will provide fresh gameplay over and over again. I hope there is alot of thinking involved and some very tough puzzles to solve in addition to the action.
 

OmegaSeamaster

New member
Finn said:
Okay, I just a did a short visit to YouTube, where somebody had actually uploaded all of Drake's Fortune cutscenes. I didn't see a second of actual gameplay, but somehow that didn't hinder from the experience. It was like watching an excellent adventure movie. I was positively surprised and honestly, blown away by the quality of the storytelling. Phenomenal. Nearly as good as... damn, I can't believe I'm going to say this... FoA.

I got "Uncharted: Drake's Fortune" the day it came out. Incredible game. The cutscenes are great, but when you actually play through the game it's even more rewarding and fun. It's probably the best-looking next-gen game out there, and looks better than anything on the 360, in my opinion.

Any Indy fan should play through it at least once. (y)
 

adventure_al

New member
so this other games (not the lego one) will be released around the time of the film, for what consoles?

as for ps3 its easily the best console out. many of my friends have traded in their xbox 360 for one recently. and with blu-ray it has the potential to go so much further. its worth it for uncharted alone, which is a must have game for any idy fan. it has a great story line and the graphics are beautiful.

noticed poster above me mentioned uncharted aswell, suposedly they only used 50% of what the blu-ray 'could' be capable of. you can see even from first ps3 releases how much the games have came on. i think its going to outshine the 360 by far.
 
Top