Did the Feudal System exist? Were the Dark Ages truly "Dark."

Raiders90

Well-known member
I had an ancient history professor this year who claimed that the idea of Feudalism existing during the Middle Ages was a myth--A creation of revisionist historians. I'm trying to learn what I can about Medieval history, I'm a Medievalist in the way that Henry, Sr. is shown to be. My professor's claim was that essentially with some individual exceptions, Feudalism was not the virtual slavery it's portrayed as, but an early form of capitalism, especially in terms of social mobility. He claimed you could gradually work your way up the ladder from serf to Noble.

He also claimed that the "Dark Ages" weren't so "Dark." He claimed that women had a much better standing in the Middle Ages than they did earlier, or even for quite a bit later--That they were acknowledged as leaders in the Middle Ages, using examples of Clothilde and others. He pointed to what he claimed was the fact that for the first time in history, women were made property owners (upon the deaths of their husbands). He promoted Christianity as the first ''true'' religion--The first religion that was followed seriously, in comparison to the way the Greeks and Romans regarded their religion. He pitted the Celts as the saviors of the knowledge of the Greeks, and painted it as though the knowledge and Greek spirit was gradually lost amongst the Romans. He had us read a book entitled, "How the Irish saved Civilization" to exemplify this. He made parallels with our nation since FDR to the Roman Empire after Julius Caesar. He paralled the Roman bread program to Social Security and other welfare programs, saying they were an early form of Socialism, and also had us read from Plato in which Plato supposedly derided the idea (then unnamed and unknown, of course) of a theoretical Communism. The professor equated the gradual decline of the Romans' Constitution with our history since 1933. He also subtly equated Caesar, Nero and other Roman Emperors to Hitler, FDR and Stalin

He also said the Middle Ages were better in terms of morality--Even better than the present day. He drew a timeline and listed all of the wars and horrors of the 20th century and 21st--WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam, 9/11, Spanish Flu, etc, and claimed that such things didn't really happen all that often in the Middle ages. He claimed the Black Death wasn't as major in terms of numbers as mainstream historians make it out to be, and that such plagues happened periodically throughout history and thus the Black Death was just the norm, not a tragic aberration. He claimed people were more liberal in their sexuality, citing the Decameron as one example. Basically, overall, the pounding themes of his message were that the Dark Ages weren't ''Dark'' at all and were a time of great knowledge and progress, and that Feudalism was not slavery but early Capitalism.

His ideas seemed very alien, and even kind of, well...nuts...to me, and I was wondering if there were any hardcore Medievalists, Historians or History Buffs in general who could set me as to whether this professor was right, or wrong.
 
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Montana Smith

Active member
Raiders112390 said:
I had an ancient history professor this year who claimed that the idea of Feudalism existing during the Middle Ages was a myth--A creation of revisionist historians. I'm trying to learn what I can about Medieval history, I'm a Medievalist in the way that Henry, Sr. is shown to be. My professor's claim was that essentially with some individual exceptions, Feudalism was not the virtual slavery it's portrayed as, but an early form of capitalism, especially in terms of social mobility. He claimed you could gradually work your way up the ladder from serf to Noble.

He's missing out the part that claimed that every individual was perceived to have a God-given place in society. A king was a king by divine right, and a peasant a peasant by divine right. There were laws that dictated each class was permitted only to wear certain clothing. One punishment for a peasant wearing clothing beyond their station was to have a hole bored in their ear as a lasting mark.

When I took my history degree the text of that law was one of the very first photocopies presented to us.

The renaissance brought about change. Shakespeare was remarkably radical in his writings against such things as the 'body politic' - where the king was represented by the head, and all other parts of society by various parts of the body.

Raiders112390 said:
He also claimed that the "Dark Ages" weren't so "Dark." He claimed that women had a much better standing in the Middle Ages than they did earlier, or even for quite a bit later--That they were acknowledged as leaders in the Middle Ages, using examples of Clothilde and others. He pointed to what he claimed was the fact that for the first time in history, women were made property owners (upon the deaths of their husbands). He promoted Christianity as the first ''true'' religion--The first religion that was followed seriously, in comparison to the way the Greeks and Romans regarded their religion. He pitted the Celts as the saviors of the knowledge of the Greeks, and painted it as though the knowledge and Greek spirit was gradually lost amongst the Romans. He had us read a book entitled, "How the Irish saved Civilization" to exemplify this. He made parallels with our nation since FDR to the Roman Empire after Julius Caesar. He paralled the Roman bread program to Social Security and other welfare programs, saying they were an early form of Socialism, and also had us read from Plato in which Plato supposedly derided the idea (then unnamed and unknown, of course) of a theoretical Communism. The professor equated the gradual decline of the Romans' Constitution with our history since 1933. He also subtly equated Caesar, Nero and other Roman Emperors to Hitler, FDR and Stalin

The term 'Dark Ages' has for some time been disproved. The Celts, for instance, were not barbarians, but a sophisticatred society capable of great works of art, and one in which women could be elevated in status.

The comparison of the decline of Rome to the dictators of the 1930s is an apt one, considering the decadence and madness and that filtered down through society.

Raiders112390 said:
His ideas seemed very alien, and even kind of, well...nuts...to me, and I was wondering if there were any hardcore Medievalists, Historians or History Buffs in general who could set me as to whether this professor was right, or wrong.

He sounds like he's trying to get you thinking, to make you to challenge accepted ideas. It's always a good start to challenge ideas before you accept them. You'll only get closer to the facts by digging out primary texts and putting them to the test yourself.
 
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Matt deMille

New member
I know it's only a TV show, but watch "Terry Jones' Medieval Lives". It's only 8 episodes. Jones (yes, of Monty Python) is very interested in the medieval himself, and his show turns up a lot of surprising alternatives to "known" history concerning the Middle-Ages.

The episode about "The peasant" goes into the Feudal System, amongst other things:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yg3YDN5gTX0&feature=channel

Enjoy!
 

Gabeed

New member
Raiders112390 said:
He also claimed that the "Dark Ages" weren't so "Dark." He claimed that women had a much better standing in the Middle Ages than they did earlier, or even for quite a bit later--That they were acknowledged as leaders in the Middle Ages, using examples of Clothilde and others. He pointed to what he claimed was the fact that for the first time in history, women were made property owners (upon the deaths of their husbands). He promoted Christianity as the first ''true'' religion--The first religion that was followed seriously, in comparison to the way the Greeks and Romans regarded their religion. He pitted the Celts as the saviors of the knowledge of the Greeks, and painted it as though the knowledge and Greek spirit was gradually lost amongst the Romans. He had us read a book entitled, "How the Irish saved Civilization" to exemplify this. He made parallels with our nation since FDR to the Roman Empire after Julius Caesar. He paralled the Roman bread program to Social Security and other welfare programs, saying they were an early form of Socialism, and also had us read from Plato in which Plato supposedly derided the idea (then unnamed and unknown, of course) of a theoretical Communism. The professor equated the gradual decline of the Romans' Constitution with our history since 1933. He also subtly equated Caesar, Nero and other Roman Emperors to Hitler, FDR and Stalin

I think he's reaching on several points. The Dark Ages are called such due to the fall of the Western Roman Empire, and the chaotic times afterwards. It should be noted that the Dark Ages are commonly seen as the Migration Period and Early Medieval Period, from around 300 AD (or 453 AD if you want to start with the final fall of the Western Roman Empire) to about 1000 AD. Migrating tribes who had harassed and conquered the Roman Empire had formed various kingdoms in Western Europe. Others, like the Vikings, came later. The Papacy had prostitutes in the Vatican (in the 800's, as I recall). We don't have a lot of written information from that time. While monasteries did preserve some Greek and Roman works, a lot came back to Europe via the Byzantines and Islamic civilizations during the Crusades, and whatever you might think of the artwork and architecture of the time, it's clearly not as impressive as that of the Romans beforehand. It's only by the time of Charlemagne that you have artists that are merely borrowing from the Romans (I'm thinking of the equestrian statue of Charlemagne which is seemingly based off of Marcus Aurelius' equestrian statue). The Dark Ages were Dark. Perhaps some scholars say nothing of value was created during those times, and that would be going too far, but it was hardly a utopia.

I find the statement that Christians took their religion "more seriously" than that of the Greeks and Romans a surprisingly huge oversimplification, and also flat-out wrong. Rather than me making a huge paragraph as to why that is wrong, can you offer more of an explanation of the reasoning behind him saying that?

Raiders112390 said:
He also said the Middle Ages were better in terms of morality--Even better than the present day. He drew a timeline and listed all of the wars and horrors of the 20th century and 21st--WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam, 9/11, Spanish Flu, etc, and claimed that such things didn't really happen all that often in the Middle ages.

A lot of these numbers are estimates (and as always, Wikipedia has to be taken with a grain of salt), but they're still worth looking at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_and_disasters_by_death_toll#War

The Middle Ages endured the Crusades, the Mongol invasion, the Hundred Years War, the Turkish invasions of Byzantium and the Middle East, The Moorish invasions of Spain and France, the Sicilian invasions into Tunisia, the unending local, private warfare in all the feudal states of Europe which forced the Church to make the Peace and Truce of God . . .the list goes on. Yes, the modern wars had more casualties overall (although the Mongol invasion is up there in casualties, if I'm not mistaken), but with globalization and larger population numbers, that was inevitable. The Middle Ages were still a quite war-torn period both on the global level and the local level, especially in Western Europe. To compare that with the casualties of a period hundreds of years later is a deception.


Montana Smith said:
The term 'Dark Ages' has for some time been disproved. The Celts, for instance, were not barbarians, but a sophisticatred society capable of great works of art, and one in which women could be elevated in status.

Indeed, but the Celts don't come from the Dark Ages, where Western Europe stagnated technologically and culturally from the Roman influence it had over it before. By the time the Dark Ages roll around, the Franks and other invaders had pretty much pushed the Celts out of France, and the Saxons, Jutes, and Angles soon pushed the Romano-British out of England.
 
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Montana Smith

Active member
Gabeed said:
Indeed, but the Celts don't come from the Dark Ages, where Western Europe stagnated technologically and culturally from the Roman influence it had over it before. By the time the Dark Ages roll around, the Franks and other invaders had pretty much pushed the Celts out of France, and the Saxons, Jutes, and Angles soon pushed the Romano-British out of England.

Well, the Celts didn't go away from Britain and Ireland, and the Saxons, Jutes and Angles, as with the Vikings later, it is now understood, merged with the native population when they settled. But it's a long and tangled history, for which we don't have much written record, which leaves us in the 'dark', but for archaeology.

I have read that there is evidence that British chieftains were engaged in trade with the middle east after the fall of the Roman Empire, indicating that there were lines of communication. Thereby bringing in a little metaphorical light to a once perceived dark age of chaos.

But as before, all this is open to interpretation, based on scant records and a lot of archaeology.
 
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Gabeed

New member
Montana Smith said:
Well, the Celts didn't go away from Britain and Ireland, and the Saxons, Jutes and Angles, as with the Vikings later, it is now understood, merged with the native population when they settled. But it's a long and tangled history, for which we don't have much written record, which leaves us in the 'dark', but for archaeology.

I have read that there is evidence that British chieftains were engaged in trade with the middle east after the fall of the Roman Empire, indicating that there were lines of communication. Thereby bringing in a little metaphorical light to a once perceived dark age of chaos.

But as before, all this is open to interpretation, based on scant records and and a lot of archaeology.

Yes, there was merging, but they clearly weren't the dominant culture anymore (at least in England). And there was trading between Britain and the the Mediterranean world for quite some time before the Roman world. It doesn't mean they were building aqueducts or triumphal arches, or writing down complex codes of law. Remember, the labeling of Dark Ages should not be seen as a period of Hell on Earth, but rather a period that comparatively to the Roman Empire in its prime was overall more unstable and stagnant.

Btw, I would like to admit that the "Dark Ages" is a rather Eurocentric term. Islamic civilization absolutely flourishes in the 8th and 9th centuries, for example.
 

Montana Smith

Active member
Gabeed said:
Yes, there was merging, but they clearly weren't the dominant culture anymore (at least in England). And there was trading between Britain and the the Mediterranean world for quite some time before the Roman world. It doesn't mean they were building aqueducts or triumphal arches, or writing down complex codes of law. Remember, the labeling of Dark Ages should not be seen as a period of Hell on Earth, but rather a period that comparatively to the Roman Empire in its prime was overall more unstable and stagnant.

I totally agree. The revisionism, which is now a mainstream understanding, is that the 'Dark Ages' were not as chaotic as once perceived, just as pre-Roman Britain was home to traders and artists.
 

Lance Quazar

Well-known member
How refreshing to see a discussion of real substance going on here, as opposed to, say, a thread about Hannah Montana.
 

Gabeed

New member
. .and how sad to see it abandoned for a couple weeks. Here's a great video from the making of HBO's "Rome" explaining Romans and their religion, which I think would help dispel the belief that the Romans and Greeks took their religion "less seriously" than Christianity.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQtXETmYQ4w

Oh, and HBO's "Rome" is one of the best historical dramas on TV ever, if you haven't seen it before.
 

Montana Smith

Active member
teampunk said:
it's sad when facts are distorted to suit someones crazy political leanings.

Yes. The willful distortion of history for political gain is one of the reasons why all historical teaching has to be put to the test. Never believe the first book you read, but search out other sources, and if possible the original evidence.

Gabeed said:
. .and how sad to see it abandoned for a couple weeks. Here's a great video from the making of HBO's "Rome" explaining Romans and their religion, which I think would help dispel the belief that the Romans and Greeks took their religion "less seriously" than Christianity.

Since they did take it very seriously, it makes me question the seriousness of current religious beliefs, which in turn colours history. If one set of seriously taken ideas can be demoted to myth, why should a later set of ideas become truth instead? (when both are founded on shaky ground).

I don't think we should ever stop asking questions about the past, let alone the present.
 

HovitosKing

Well-known member
Montana Smith said:
Yes. The willful distortion of history for political gain is one of the reasons why all historical teaching has to be put to the test. Never believe the first book you read, but search out other sources, and if possible the original evidence.

Truthier words have never been spoken.
 

otto rahn

New member
Lance Quazar said:
How refreshing to see a discussion of real substance going on here, as opposed to, say, a thread about Hannah Montana.
A thread about Hannah Montana ! Where ? Surely not under "Archaeology" ?:p
 
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