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Old 03-04-2009, 01:30 PM   #51
The Man
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It's a fascinating brainstorm to read. Thankfully, Spielberg was fully engaged with the proposed storyline and didn't spend a decade trying to ignore it...
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Old 03-04-2009, 01:40 PM   #52
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Another reason it's interesting to read this now, is because of the way Lucas is blamed for EVERYTHING people didn't like about KOTCS. But here we see a strong argument that Spielberg took this series a lot less seriously than Lucas did. Add to this the fact that Spielberg considers LC a better crowd pleaser than ROTLA, and that he frequently joked with his editor about the comedy in KOTCS: "Am I taking this too far?"

We already know that several hated elements in KOTCS were entirely Spielberg's- yet no one's ever willing to admit it. For example, he had strong input into the Tarzan scene and wanted a shot of the monkey surviving. It was also his idea to make the 13 aliens merge into one big one. And after reading the transcript, does anyone really believe the prairie dogs or the rubber tree were entirely Lucas' creations?

It's actually Lucas that fought to keep the action in ROTLA believable. Spielberg came up with things like the life raft jump, Indy riding a camel through clotheslines, and a turban-wearing monkey. Based on this, it wouldn't surprise me if Spielberg were the real culprit behind the infamous fridge scene. We'd previously seen how Lucas approached the idea in the Saucermen script. It was still bold and over-the-top, but he didn't have Indy flying around in a refrigerator.

Most people didn't have a problem with Indy riding the initial blastwave. Or the fact that he became airborne- since he wasn't really that high off the ground. These are both similar enough to stunts Indy had already survived in TOD.

No, the most common criticism of that scene was the exaggerated landing. But to me, that comes across as having a strong Spielberg influence. It's played for laughs, and basically has the tone of, "Look at what Indy is surviving here!" This is consistent with one of Spielberg's favorite aspects of the character: Someone who can take an absurd beating, yet keep on ticking.
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Old 03-04-2009, 03:25 PM   #53
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Thanks for the Transcript

It's a great read for the obsessive fan!

I have to say it's remarkable how focused Lucas comes off. My favorite, (so far...not done with this guilty please yet!) is how much he wants to make it BELIEVEABLE! He's definitely serious about this film!

I spent many years NOT paying much attention to the "Steven Spielberg Film" line and would always give much more respect to Lucas.

Then they got old, BOTH of them, but while Lucas gave us JarJar, Spielberg gave us Munich and I started to re-think my position.

ESPECIALLY after Lucas downgraded Crystal Skull in interviews by catagorizing CS as just another adventure for this WACKY acrcheologist.

That is how he approaches the FRANCHISE these day and that is exactly what he has created with Crystal Skull...a wacky film, (cue wackety sax).

Thanks for this great read...I can rest assured that I didn't invest so many years and so much imagination in a character who's become a parody of himself.

The reason Raiders is so great is that they couldn't indulge themselves, They had to be quick dirty and cut corners, that's why we have Indy shooting first and not the (now I'm being generous) Chaplinesque slapstick they wanted.

All the subsequent movies mine from Raiders...it was the BEST of the material, and they took it SERIOUSLY. Indy was the "Archeologist with No Name" and not Frank Drebin.

Thanks for the material...I will be enjoying it for along long time!


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Old 03-04-2009, 05:31 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilhelm
super high-powered radio from one of Erick Von Daniken's FLYING SAUCERS.
I knew Lucas was inspired by Chariots of the Gods from the start!

More gallows humor:
Quote:
G — We have a scene with the villians torturing the girl a little bit, rape her, talk about the fact that they're not finding the Ark.
S — She should be screaming his name, she's so pissed off. He had to tie her up, otherwise they would know that he was around. At the same time, there are people raping and torturing her.
G — I was using that facetiously.
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Old 03-04-2009, 06:03 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocket Surgeon
It's a great read for the obsessive fan!

I have to say it's remarkable how focused Lucas comes off. My favorite, (so far...not done with this guilty please yet!) is how much he wants to make it BELIEVEABLE! He's definitely serious about this film!

I spent many years NOT paying much attention to the "Steven Spielberg Film" line and would always give much more respect to Lucas.

Then they got old, BOTH of them, but while Lucas gave us JarJar, Spielberg gave us Munich and I started to re-think my position.

ESPECIALLY after Lucas downgraded Crystal Skull in interviews by catagorizing CS as just another adventure for this WACKY acrcheologist.

That is how he approaches the FRANCHISE these day and that is exactly what he has created with Crystal Skull...a wacky film, (cue wackety sax).

Thanks for this great read...I can rest assured that I didn't invest so many years and so much imagination in a character who's become a parody of himself.

The reason Raiders is so great is that they couldn't indulge themselves, They had to be quick dirty and cut corners, that's why we have Indy shooting first and not the (now I'm being generous) Chaplinesque slapstick they wanted.

All the subsequent movies mine from Raiders...it was the BEST of the material, and they took it SERIOUSLY. Indy was the "Archeologist with No Name" and not Frank Drebin.

Thanks for the material...I will be enjoying it for along long time!



I think most would agree that Raiders is still the pinnacle of Indiana Jones. Of course, that's not to say that enjoyment cannot be found, in what are, three very well crafted sequels.
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Old 03-05-2009, 03:18 AM   #56
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I converted it to html and posted it here.
http://moedred.livejournal.com/2009/03/04
The typewriter typos remain, for identification purposes. Agent5's transcript is cleaner, and I suspect his Ebay source polished this transcript without hearing the tapes himself. Which means his copy wouldn't have the 2 missing pages either. He'd be the first to ask about them... he hangs out at COW quite a bit.
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Old 03-05-2009, 03:33 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moedred
I converted it to html and posted it here.
http://moedred.livejournal.com/2009/03/04
The typewriter typos remain, for identification purposes. Agent5's transcript is cleaner, and I suspect his Ebay source polished this transcript without hearing the tapes himself. Which means his copy wouldn't have the 2 missing pages either. He'd be the first to ask about them... he hangs out at COW quite a bit.

That makes it a lot easier to read.

Thanks.
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Old 03-05-2009, 08:28 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cdmeredith
I think Kasdan really deserves the credit for Marion though, that seems to be the one truly monumental addition that didn't come out of George. I also had always thought that it was Kasdan and Spielberg that had really fleshed out the story of Raiders, based on minor input from George, but actually the opposite was the truth. Weird. The power of the ark, and the way it appears in the film is absent from this document though, so maybe spielberg devised that later, to make it more dramatic? Lucas seems to have envisioned it as a burst of static electricity that's over in two seconds.

I really agree with you on that, Kasdan deserves almost all the credit for Marion!

Quote:
Originally Posted by James
Another reason it's interesting to read this now, is because of the way Lucas is blamed for EVERYTHING people didn't like about KOTCS. But here we see a strong argument that Spielberg took this series a lot less seriously than Lucas did. Add to this the fact that Spielberg considers LC a better crowd pleaser than ROTLA, and that he frequently joked with his editor about the comedy in KOTCS: "Am I taking this too far?"

We already know that several hated elements in KOTCS were entirely Spielberg's- yet no one's ever willing to admit it. For example, he had strong input into the Tarzan scene and wanted a shot of the monkey surviving. It was also his idea to make the 13 aliens merge into one big one. And after reading the transcript, does anyone really believe the prairie dogs or the rubber tree were entirely Lucas' creations?

It's actually Lucas that fought to keep the action in ROTLA believable. Spielberg came up with things like the life raft jump, Indy riding a camel through clotheslines, and a turban-wearing monkey. Based on this, it wouldn't surprise me if Spielberg were the real culprit behind the infamous fridge scene. We'd previously seen how Lucas approached the idea in the Saucermen script. It was still bold and over-the-top, but he didn't have Indy flying around in a refrigerator.

Most people didn't have a problem with Indy riding the initial blastwave. Or the fact that he became airborne- since he wasn't really that high off the ground. These are both similar enough to stunts Indy had already survived in TOD.

No, the most common criticism of that scene was the exaggerated landing. But to me, that comes across as having a strong Spielberg influence. It's played for laughs, and basically has the tone of, "Look at what Indy is surviving here!" This is consistent with one of Spielberg's favorite aspects of the character: Someone who can take an absurd beating, yet keep on ticking.

Well I myself enjoy those little funny things Steven throws in, what I didn't like was the aliens, and that was Lucas's idea! I still loved KOTCS, but I hated the aliens/crystal skull thing and it needed a lot more Marion!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Vile
Completely on the money. Agree 100%. We forget (or some do) that Lucas and Spielberg are actually closer to these movies than we are. Of course, that doesn't mean that their artistic/creative choices always work on screen, but I do believe they are in a better place to make these judgments than the likes of us.

I think you are falling into the trap of letting your feelings define what the movie is for everyone else. As is evidenced on this site alone, the majority of people here (considering fans can sometimes be the most critical) don’t believe this to be a “subpar film”. In fact, they enjoy/like it.

Also, lumping the original trilogy together and then comparing i.e. OT versus KOTCS, seems a little unfair and biased towards the originals. It’s only really logical to compare movie with movie. In reality, TOD is as far removed in quality from Raiders (IMHO) as KOTCS is. I don’t recall TOD being lauded for it’s great writing and character motivation… but perhaps I missed that meeting. That’s not to say one can’t have a preference, but I just don’t see it has much to do with “the writing” or “character development” etc. If anything, TOD proves that you don’t need those things in order to make a good action/adventure movie.

I absoutely agree with you, as the character development goes.. I saw little to no character development in TOD, and I never noticed Indy developing into any kind of father for shorty, all I ever saw was a cute and at times annoying temporary side kick, but the point is, maybe KOTCS did lack character development, but TOD had none either

Quote:
G — I was thinking that this old guy could have been his mentor. He could have known this little girl when she was just a kid. Had an affair with her when she was eleven.
L — And he was forty-two.
G — He hasn't seen her in twelve years. Now she's twenty-two. It's a real strange relationship.
S — She had better be older than twenty-two.
.....
G — Fifteen is right on the edge. I know it's an outrageous idea, but it is interesting. Once she's sixteen or seventeen it's not interesting anymore.

Had an affair with her when she was eleven!?!? Is he crazy?! I don't know why he would come up with an age like that, but it's a good thing they changed it to fifteen and then seventeen!

Last edited by Moedred : 03-05-2009 at 06:17 PM. Reason: 4 posts perged
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Old 03-05-2009, 03:46 PM   #59
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I'm a little more perplexed by the "And he was forty-two." Did they intend for Indy to be 52 in this film? Abner could have been 42, yes, but that's a bit of an irrelevance, yes?
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Old 03-05-2009, 04:50 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilhelm
Big Thanks cdmeredith!!!

This is a great document. I just begin to read and it's so interesting.

For example: the polemic concept of flying saucers / extraterrestials of Indy 4 was present in the genesis of Raiders from 1978.

LUCAS: "The Ark is like a radio transmiter. That's the real legend. That's what they used to do. The Israelis used to set up these tents and they would talk to God and God would tell them what to do. And then they would march with it in front of their army. The other Armies would be destroyed. Our idea was that there must actually be some kind of super high-powered radio from one of Erick Von Daniken's FLYING SAUCERS. The fact that it's electrical charges makes it vaguely believable."
(Page 28)

Take that, you Alien/UFO/SciFi Indy-hating asscracks. Sci-Fi has been here since the start. Now stop your *****ing, PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 03-05-2009, 05:15 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by kongisking
Take that, you Alien/UFO/SciFi Indy-hating asscracks. Sci-Fi has been here since the start. Now stop your *****ing, PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!

Aliens suck, and their involvement was relegated to Indy disproving the hoax.

The term 'ancient astronauts' designates the speculative notion that aliens are responsible for the most ancient civilizations on earth. The most notorious proponent of this idea is Erich von Däniken, author of several popular books on the subject. His Chariots of the Gods? Unsolved Mysteries of the Past, for example, is a sweeping attack on the memories and abilities of ancient peoples. Von Däniken claims that the myths, arts, social organizations, etc., of ancient cultures were introduced by astronauts from another world. He questions not just the capacity for memory, but the capacity for culture and civilization itself, in ancient peoples. Prehistoric humans did not develop their own arts and technologies, but rather were taught art and science by visitors from outer space.

Where is the proof for von Däniken's claims? Some of it was fraudulent. For example, he produced photographs of pottery that he claimed had been found in an archaeological dig. The pottery depicts flying saucers and was said to have been dated from Biblical times. However, investigators from Nova (the fine public-television science program) found the potter who had made the allegedly ancient pots. They confronted von Däniken with evidence of his fraud. His reply was that his deception was justified because some people would only believe if they saw proof ("The Case of the Ancient Astronauts," first aired 3/8/78, done in conjunction with BBC's Horizon and Peter Spry-Leverton)!

However, most of von Däniken's evidence is in the form of specious and fallacious arguments. His data consists mainly of archaeological sites and ancient myths. He begins with the ancient astronaut assumption and then forces all data to fit the idea. For example, in Nazca, Peru, he explains giant animal drawings in the desert as an ancient alien airport. The likelihood that these drawings related to the natives' religion or science is not considered. He also frequently reverts to false dilemma reasoning of the following type: "Either this data is to be explained by assuming these primitive idiots did this themselves or we must accept the more plausible notion that they got help from extremely advanced peoples who must have come from other planets where such technologies as anti-gravity devices had been invented." His devotion to this theory has not dwindled, despite contrary evidence, as is evidenced by still another book on the subject, Arrival of the Gods : Revealing the Alien Landing Sites at Nazca (1998).

Continue *****ing ladies and gentlemen
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Old 03-05-2009, 05:18 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kongisking
Take that, you Alien/UFO/SciFi Indy-hating asscracks. Sci-Fi has been here since the start. Now stop your *****ing, PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!

Chill Pill
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Old 03-05-2009, 05:21 PM   #63
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And Phil Kaufman who had the idea of using the ark as McGuffin, also mentions extra-terrestials:

" (...) when I was in college, a famous blood specialist had written
with another doctor an article on the Ark of the Covenant
and how he felt it provided a means of communication with some
other extra-terrestrial or God-like or whatever. It was in
a sense an elaborate radio setup. It contained silk curtains and
veils and other things."
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Old 03-05-2009, 05:29 PM   #64
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There's no difference between aliens that originate via another dimension and ghosts that arrive the same way.
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Old 03-05-2009, 05:34 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James
There's no difference between aliens that originate via another dimension and ghosts that arrive the same way.

If they arrive the same way, of course there's no difference...wait what?!?!
My Necronomicon clearly delineates aliens from interdimentional beings and ark spirits from ghosts.

Where are you getting your info from? The bathroom wall?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kongisking
Take that, you Alien/UFO/SciFi Indy-hating asscracks. Sci-Fi has been here since the start. Now stop your *****ing, PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!

Too bad the creatures in crystal Skull were NOT aliens, they were interdimentional beings

and interdimentional beings suck too!

Get your indignation straight!

Sorry guys/gals...I had to, oh I had to

Tell them I said ouch.

Last edited by Moedred : 03-06-2009 at 04:35 PM. Reason: merged 2
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Old 03-05-2009, 06:02 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Attila the Professor
I'm a little more perplexed by the "And he was forty-two." Did they intend for Indy to be 52 in this film? Abner could have been 42, yes, but that's a bit of an irrelevance, yes?
Yeah your right, all the ages they're coming up with here are insane, I still can't get over his idea of Marion being ELEVEN when Indy had an affair with her.. geeze!!! Indy's not that kind of a guy!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocket Surgeon
Aliens suck,
I agree, aliens in an Indy movie suck..

Last edited by Moedred : 03-06-2009 at 04:37 PM. Reason: merged 2
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Old 03-05-2009, 06:43 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Attila the Professor
I'm a little more perplexed by the "And he was forty-two."
I think George was being facetious again, like when he discussed Marion being raped. George, Steven and Larry are age 33, 31 and 29. Their transcript doesn't note laughter like the last segment but I'm sure it's there.

Two technical musings... I wonder why there's blank space on page 43. And more transcription after the end of tape 4 (there's a tape 5?).

There are a couple of places where I'm not sure of the speaker (ie, "He finally goes into a garage"), mainly the one spot where these indicators ran off the page (I left ?'s). But mostly I'd like to see the 2 lost pages. (And the 1 lost page of Monkey King.) Any errors you notice which I myself (and not the transcriber) made, do let me know by PM!
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Old 03-05-2009, 06:55 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocket Surgeon
If they arrive the same way, of course there's no difference...wait what?!?! My Necronomicon clearly delineates aliens from interdimentional beings and ark spirits from ghosts.

Yes, but my Complete Making Of Indiana Jones says they were both born of special effects.

But if you really want to take my post that literally, we can just omit the "arrive" part. The point is still the same. Once you have spirits entering our world from another dimension or plane of existence, it's not much of a stretch to revisit the idea in a sequel.
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Old 03-05-2009, 06:55 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocket Surgeon
Aliens suck, and their involvement was relegated to Indy disproving the hoax.

The term 'ancient astronauts' designates the speculative notion that aliens are responsible...

Is there irrefutably proof that "aliens suck" as opposed to blow?

Also, not sure what your point is… that aliens/UFO’s have no place in an Indiana Jones movie, that their supposed existence is largely a matter of faith or that you just don’t like Sci-Fi type movies???
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Old 03-05-2009, 07:41 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James
Yes, but my Complete Making Of Indiana Jones says they were both born of special effects.

But if you really want to take my post that literally, we can just omit the "arrive" part. The point is still the same. Once you have spirits entering our world from another dimension or plane of existence, it's not much of a stretch to revisit the idea in a sequel.
I thought you meant REAL Aliens! My mistake!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Vile
Is there irrefutably proof that "aliens suck" as opposed to blow?

Also, not sure what your point is… that aliens/UFO’s have no place in an Indiana Jones movie, that their supposed existence is largely a matter of faith or that you just don’t like Sci-Fi type movies???
I had to look that one up and where aliens definitely suck, interdimentional beings blow.

Nah, I was just having fun with his rant and him being so quick to say nah nah they're there! and overlooking the reason they are there in the first place, as a plot element for Indy to expose as false. Which is where the long winded explanation of Kerry Von Erich comes in...a little history lesson if you will...

Last edited by Moedred : 03-06-2009 at 04:36 PM. Reason: merged 2
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Old 03-09-2009, 03:51 PM   #71
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We have pdfscreenplays.com to thank for this script, and Koepp's. In fact, AICN linking to Darabont's script in June is what crashed and terminated their old site. Registration seems to open for just a few days every other month, or you can donate $10 to get in. But the welcome forum is viewable to all. Here's a list of scripts members may download (some are for future releases).
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Old 03-09-2009, 06:10 PM   #72
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Attention Moderators

Attention all moderators. I need the links that I posted taken down. I also need a few posts deleted, or edited. I have sent all the moderators I could find private messages. Please read them for details. Please respond as quickly as possible. Thank you.

If there are any questions, please don't hesitate to get ahold of me. thanks.
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Old 03-09-2009, 06:19 PM   #73
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Quote:
G — I was thinking that this old guy could have been his mentor. He could have known this little girl when she was just a kid. Had an affair with her when she was eleven.
L — And he was forty-two.
G — He hasn't seen her in twelve years. Now she's twenty-two. It's a real strange relationship.
S — She had better be older than twenty-two.
G — Fifteen is right on the edge. I know it's an outrageous idea, but it is interesting. Once she's sixteen or seventeen it's not interesting anymore.



There is a certain cartoon Internet bear whose image is just growling to be pasted on the margin right there...
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Old 03-09-2009, 07:16 PM   #74
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Thank you.

Thank you to the moderator(s) who edited my posts. Thank you very much.
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Old 03-09-2009, 10:30 PM   #75
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Agent5's source "said he had copies of [the tapes] and wrote it all out in transcript form, word for eligible word... whoever made this took alot of time to get it done."

Well, no. The page Agent5 posted is identical to the pdf down to the punctuation. It reads "shafts, air shafts, .little things" and indeed, the pdf has a bit of schmutz before the L. The pdf version was typed first, then the ebay huckster acquired and converted it to html rather quickly, like I did. There is still hope for finding the 2 missing pages in Agent5's copy though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cdmeredith
Thank you to the moderator(s) who edited my posts.
Looks like you got off the roller coaster just in time. Here we go...
http://www.aintitcool.com/node/40361

Last edited by Moedred : 03-09-2009 at 10:38 PM.
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