Regarding The Use of Aliens

HJTHX1138

New member
Firstly, I feel that this is going to be too big of a change/problem to feature in another related thread, so hear me out on this.

A lot of people had problems with Indy IV's plot having anything to do with aliens. The idea of "Aliens in an Indiana Jones Movie" made them cringe. I can understand this, but I get the feeling that, at least from a creative standpoint, there really wasn't anywhere else to go for them to "up the ante".

He's found The Ark and the literal Holy Grail, where do you go from there?

Some would probably have a few other beloved religious artifacts they could think of, but when you're trying to close a franchise, you're going to go big.

When I heard it was going to be called Cystal Skull I knew instantly aliens were going to be involved, I didn't think we'd actually see any. The actual crystal skulls are shrouded in mystery, there are thousands of different kinds of stories you could tell.

My problem with Aliens in KotCS is this: They didn't need to be featured directly.

What makes the artifact interesting is the mystery behind it, we weren't explicity told in Raiders that god was real, but it was heavily implied.

We see an alien kill Spalko, yet we didn't need to see a giant foot squash Belloq, did we?

So what was stopping them from handling the aliens plot in the same way?

To make this more clear, here are some examples of "Changes":

* From what we do know about the Crystal Skulls, scientists believe they would have to be manufactured some way through incredible tools. Have the movie be about a race to find the Crystal Skull machine. Maybe the machine is some kind of primitive human builder, but they only could get it to work well enough to make skulls and nothing else. This leaves us with a subtle hint that this incredible technology is not of this earth.

* Pull a Fate of Atlantis. Commies could be searching for a power source to beat us to the punch with nuclear weapons, whatever this power source is could be alien in origin.

Etc.

Thoughts?
 
Last edited:

Udvarnoky

Well-known member
You make good points, and I do think that when it comes to their problem with the alien angle, a lot of fans struggle to parse their issues.

My position on the alien factor has always been that it's been very overstated as a detriment to the picture. There's plenty of stuff wrong with the film, but on a broad conceptual level I think it's solid enough. I think all those years the movie was in development hell were way too much about concept specifically, when the actual execution, aka the script, is where the effort should have spent when it is brutally clear that it wasn't. So much time was spent arguing over what compass direction to set sail in that it left five minutes to put the boat together. My grand theory is that Indiana Jones 4 was a victim of poor prioritizing.

You read all the interviews and stories about what kept the film in gestation for so long, and the heartbreaking realization you come to is that all the false starts and the "waiting for the right story" really did come down to a consensus being reached between the three principles about how far to go with aliens/50s stuff. George ultimately won out I think (though maybe not as much as he would have preferred), but the question everyone should be asking is why the hell did that have to matter so much? Why was something so relatively superficial the big breakthrough? If even a fraction of that time and effort had been spent on drafting a good screenplay (or using the good screenplay they had instead of resetting again for egotistical reasons) no matter what the story, we would have wound up with a better movie. I truly believe that.

I think your point about it not being necessary to embrace the alien stuff quite as bluntly as the movie ultimately did is valid. It could have been handled with more ambiguity. As is now common knowledge, the Darabont draft approached the material that way, and I think the well-crafted Fate of Atlantis would have indeed been a worthy influence in that (and other) regards. Still, I don't think any approach would have been wrong, and the final movie's story, with E.T. in the casket marked Roswell appearing plainly in the movie's fifteen minutes, could have and should have worked just fine. Ultimately, it's a not a close-up of a grimacing alien or the image of a rising UFO that keeps the movie from being something really memorable. I just think that those were the easiest things to hogpile on for fans who left the theater disappointed but not entirely sure why.
 

Attila the Professor

Moderator
Staff member
At some point, i should see whether this thread should be merged with another one or not. But for now, I just want everyone to read this:

Udvarnoky said:
You make good points, and I do think that when it comes to their problem with the alien angle, a lot of fans struggle to parse their issues.

My position on the alien factor has always been that it's been very overstated as a detriment to the picture. There's plenty of stuff wrong with the film, but on a broad conceptual level I think it's solid enough. I think all those years the movie was in development hell were way too much about concept specifically, when the actual execution, aka the script, is where the effort should have spent when it is brutally clear that it wasn't. So much time was spent arguing over what compass direction to set sail in that it left five minutes to put the boat together. My grand theory is that Indiana Jones 4 was a victim of poor prioritizing.

You read all the interviews and stories about what kept the film in gestation for so long, and the heartbreaking realization you come to is that all the false starts and the "waiting for the right story" really did come down to a consensus being reached between the three principles about how far to go with aliens/50s stuff. George ultimately won out I think (though maybe not as much as he would have preferred), but the question everyone should be asking is why the hell did that have to matter so much? Why was something so relatively superficial the big breakthrough? If even a fraction of that time and effort had been spent on drafting a good screenplay (or using the good screenplay they had instead of resetting again for egotistical reasons) no matter what the story, we would have wound up with a better movie. I truly believe that.

I think your point about it not being necessary to embrace the alien stuff quite as bluntly as the movie ultimately did is valid. It could have been handled with more ambiguity. As is now common knowledge, the Darabont draft approached the material that way, and I think the well-crafted Fate of Atlantis would have indeed been a worthy influence in that (and other) regards. Still, I don't think any approach would have been wrong, and the final movie's story, with E.T. in the casket marked Roswell appearing plainly in the movie's fifteen minutes, could have and should have worked just fine. Ultimately, it's a not a close-up of a grimacing alien or the image of a rising UFO that keeps the movie from being something really memorable. I just think that those were the easiest things to hogpile on for fans who left the theater disappointed but not entirely sure why.

I couldn't agree any more with this. I thought the aliens were just fine, apart from an execution issue here and there, but the real trouble is how much effort was spent on making the aliens work for everyone.
 

The_Raiders

Well-known member
Now I hate getting into KOTCS discussions, but I can see myself getting in on this one. I agree with most of what I've read so far. I think Indy and aliens could have mixed very well actually. I agree that we just didn't need to see the aliens directly. I really love that Raiders comparison. God wasn't shown directly. If anything cutting out the alien scene would help the movie out. And the space craft. Cut that out and I'd say you have a pretty damn good Indy movie, though I was disappointed with Indys lack of whip/gun use.
 

Montana Smith

Active member
Attila the Professor said:
I couldn't agree any more with this. I thought the aliens were just fine, apart from an execution issue here and there, but the real trouble is how much effort was spent on making the aliens work for everyone.

Execution was the key.

KOTCS failed to create a sense of awe, wonder or mystery. ROTLA had the build-up to the power of the Ark through various character reactions to it throughout the film. TOD had Indy walking into Pankot palace, which was a potentially dangerous trap in itself, with a hidden subterranean cult.

KOTCS is more in line with TLC, in which the wonder about the object isn't shared very strongly by Indy himself. And if Indy isn't that bothered, why should the audience? TLC, however, was focusing more on obsession and family ties. KOTCS was a retread of those themes.

The wonder about aliens was dissipated early on with the reveal that the US government, and Indy, were already aware of the existence of intelligent alien life. Therefore, the alien and his big cousins become mere plot devices to get Indy into Peru so he can meet Mutt and wed Marion. The aliens also neatly tie up the loose ends: they erradicate Indy's main rival; their departure kills Mac; and because their job was complete, Oxley could have his mind back.

It would have been much more interesting to reveal the aliens first in Peru, maybe just the smaller versions, stalking Spalko and Indy through Peru as they attempt to take back the skull.
 

MinnesotaJones

New member
I have one reason for Aliens and one reason against aliens.

For(y)
Aliens is a good Idea because in the 50s people kept talking about aliens and UFOs.

Against (n)
Secret of the Incas heavely influenced Indiana Jones and I think that was set in the 50s. Were there any aliens? Nope.
 

Darth Vile

New member
Montana Smith said:
Execution was the key.

KOTCS failed to create a sense of awe, wonder or mystery. ROTLA had the build-up to the power of the Ark through various character reactions to it throughout the film. TOD had Indy walking into Pankot palace, which was a potentially dangerous trap in itself, with a hidden subterranean cult.

KOTCS is more in line with TLC, in which the wonder about the object isn't shared very strongly by Indy himself. And if Indy isn't that bothered, why should the audience? TLC, however, was focusing more on obsession and family ties. KOTCS was a retread of those themes.

The wonder about aliens was dissipated early on with the reveal that the US government, and Indy, were already aware of the existence of intelligent alien life. Therefore, the alien and his big cousins become mere plot devices to get Indy into Peru so he can meet Mutt and wed Marion. The aliens also neatly tie up the loose ends: they erradicate Indy's main rival; their departure kills Mac; and because their job was complete, Oxley could have his mind back.

It would have been much more interesting to reveal the aliens first in Peru, maybe just the smaller versions, stalking Spalko and Indy through Peru as they attempt to take back the skull.

I don't necessarily agree with your conclusions... but I do agree with your general points. Whatever is going on in the story, the audience have to care about the outcome. The audience have to be made to want to care by the script/direction. I didn't particularly care about the existence of aliens or wether Indy forged a successful relationship with his son because those elements really didn't take focus in the movie. When those story elements become secondary (such as they did in TOD too), the action sequences have to be sh*t hot to make up for it.
 

Montana Smith

Active member
Sharkey and replican't. I reckon you two have much in common.

If you were any closer the union could provide something more terrifying than a bunch of malicious aliens:

Question_and_shark.jpg


Do androids dream of electric sharks?
 
Who is Sharkey? Never met the man, woman, thing.

Look - why prod the smelly corpse of KOCS any longer? The aliens idea was rubbish, from conception to execution.

Here's a formula:

Raiders + Close Encounters = KOCS
All that is good about both
 

Finn

Moderator
Staff member
replican't said:
No need to discuss it.
If you truly feel like this, I can certainly relieve you of the nasty temptation to do so. Or any mod to that extent.
 

fenris

New member
It was the ending that did it. Having them face to face with the "aliens" ruined it for me. I'd rather that nothing happened when they returned the skull. I never liked that returning the skull would reanimate the alien.

Maybe they should've remained skeletons... Then in a brilliant flash of light, vanished! Leaving everyone dumbfounded, without an explanation and nothing to fight over.

Then they would realize the "power" that was supposed to be given was not real... The legend had been just that, a legend. A legend passed on from generation to generation by the Ugha tribe because they never fully understood their "gods".

In Raiders, we witnessed the power of God... But we never saw God himself. That should've been the treatment of the aliens in KOTCS... They didn't need to show us a live alien and that ship!
 

The_Raiders

Well-known member
fenris said:
It was the ending that did it. Having them face to face with the "aliens" ruined it for me. I'd rather that nothing happened when they returned the skull. I never liked that returning the skull would reanimate the alien.

Maybe they should've remained skeletons... Then in a brilliant flash of light, vanished! Leaving everyone dumbfounded, without an explanation and nothing to fight over.

Then they would realize the "power" that was supposed to be given was not real... The legend had been just that, a legend. A legend passed on from generation to generation by the Ugha tribe because they never fully understood their "gods".

In Raiders, we witnessed the power of God... But we never saw God himself. That should've been the treatment of the aliens in KOTCS... They didn't need to show us a live alien and that ship!

I agree. Maybe a flash of light, and have Spalko and her goons die some kind of gruesome, unexplained death. It was just too much, and too revealing.
 

michael

Well-known member
I've always liked the idea of saucers rather than seeing the actual aliens.

Although, I didn't mind the dead alien body.
 

Dr. Gonzo

New member
I think one of the major problems with the aliens was actually seeing them in the film...

...we never saw God in Raiders or Crusade -- or Kali or Shiva in Doom (yes we saw pictographs and statues but not the entity incarnate.)

I sometimes wonder if it would have worked better without seeing them. But how the hell would that have been done?
 
Top