Crystal Skull hatred knows no bounds

Dayne

New member
Can anyone explain their views on why they think Last Crusade fits in with the originals and why KOTCS does not? Because for the life of me I cannot see what makes that film so much better to "fit in" with the others while Kingdom can't. Quite frankly, I believe none of the sequels deserve to be in the presence of Raiders, quality-wise.
 

Dr.Jonesy

Well-known member
Dayne said:
Quite frankly, I believe none of the sequels deserve to be in the presence of Raiders, quality-wise.

Wow, I've always thought this too. Seriously, that x10!

I thought I was the only one!
:whip:
 

OmegaSeamaster

New member
Dayne said:
Can anyone explain their views on why they think Last Crusade fits in with the originals and why KOTCS does not? Because for the life of me I cannot see what makes that film so much better to "fit in" with the others while Kingdom can't. Quite frankly, I believe none of the sequels deserve to be in the presence of Raiders, quality-wise.

Last Crusade is an original, being part of the original trilogy. Many of the creators from the first two films were still involved with it. To that end, it doesn't have to "fit-in." Skull brought in new people trying to make the new film conform to the tone and spirit of the "originals." This was hit or miss, mostly miss.

Crusade offers many great reasons why it is a better film than Crystal Skull.

1. The great chemistry and comedic timing between Ford & Connery.
2. Nazis were always the essential Indy villains, with Elsa, Donovan and Vogel being fun antagonists (Mac, Spalko and Dovchenko were poor clones - Traitor: Elsa/Mac, Boss: Donovan/Spalko, Tough Guy: Vogel/Dovchenko)
3. The great Douglas Slocombe did the cinematography.
4. The tank chase in the desert was epic. (No monkeys)
5. Walter Donovan's death was as good as Belloq's and left you feeling satisfied.
6. The booby traps (3 challenges) were great...Skull hardly had any, were weak, or were left on the cutting room floor
7. Lack of major CGI and Lucas' tendency to go off the rails kept mercifully in check
8. The Holy Grail was a classic McGuffin based in history/legend and not outer space
9. Sallah and Marcus came along for the adventure
10. The ending was great. Indy saves his dad, Elsa pays for her arrogance, the knight bids the group farewell and the heroes ride off into the sunset as opposed to watching ET and Elliott fly away.
11. John Williams contributed a memorable score that soared. Indy gets ready to make his leap of faith and the music just takes off.
12. The rats were real.
13. The script was very clever:
"Oh it breaks the heart...."
"And the head."
"I'll never forgive myself."
"It's ok Dad, I'm ok..."
"Thank God......it's a fake! You can tell by the cross section!!!"

I dunno...I just can't see how anyone can convince themselves that Skull is on the same level with it. It may be a fun movie if you like Indy, but to me it will always be a let-down.
 

JuniorJones

TR.N Staff Member
Kotcs is the film equivelant of your dad getting up and trying to show you how he can still dance.

It's kind of fun at first because you remember dad being a good dancer but unfortunatley he's a bit slow, his jokes are not funny and he needs obvious assistant to make it work. It's embrassing and you wish he'd never got up.

In retrospect, it was nice seeing your dad dancing again, it made you feel young again but ultimately, it wasn't like it was before and you'd rather forget he did it by pretending it didn't happen and try to remember how he was.
 

Ajax the Great

New member
JuniorJones said:
Kotcs is the film equivelant of your dad getting up and trying to show you how he can still dance.

It's kind of fun at first because you remember dad being a good dancer but unfortunatley he's a bit slow, his jokes are not funny and he needs obvious assistant to make it work. It's embrassing and you wish he'd never got up.

In retrospect, it was nice seeing your dad dancing again, it made you feel young again but ultimately, it wasn't like it was before and you'd rather forget he did it by pretending it didn't happen and try to remember how he was.

Yet for some reason, as much as I wasn't thrilled about Dad's first dance, I think was a little rusty and has that all sorted out now. So I'd like to see Dad dance again.

This is getting weird.
 

JuniorJones

TR.N Staff Member
Ajax the Great said:
Yet for some reason, as much as I wasn't thrilled about Dad's first dance, I think was a little rusty and has that all sorted out now. So I'd like to see Dad dance again.

This is getting weird.

yes, we all like to see Dad dance again. We all want to see him do better but we don't want him to further degrade our memory of him.

I guess we all know in our hearts it's not the same and prehaps it's time to let go.
 

Darth Vile

New member
OmegaSeamaster said:
Last Crusade is an original, being part of the original trilogy. Many of the creators from the first two films were still involved with it. To that end, it doesn't have to "fit-in." Skull brought in new people trying to make the new film conform to the tone and spirit of the "originals." This was hit or miss, mostly miss.

Crusade offers many great reasons why it is a better film than Crystal Skull.

1. The great chemistry and comedic timing between Ford & Connery.
2. Nazis were always the essential Indy villains, with Elsa, Donovan and Vogel being fun antagonists (Mac, Spalko and Dovchenko were poor clones - Traitor: Elsa/Mac, Boss: Donovan/Spalko, Tough Guy: Vogel/Dovchenko)
3. The great Douglas Slocombe did the cinematography.
4. The tank chase in the desert was epic. (No monkeys)
5. Walter Donovan's death was as good as Belloq's and left you feeling satisfied.
6. The booby traps (3 challenges) were great...Skull hardly had any, were weak, or were left on the cutting room floor
7. Lack of major CGI and Lucas' tendency to go off the rails kept mercifully in check
8. The Holy Grail was a classic McGuffin based in history/legend and not outer space
9. Sallah and Marcus came along for the adventure
10. The ending was great. Indy saves his dad, Elsa pays for her arrogance, the knight bids the group farewell and the heroes ride off into the sunset as opposed to watching ET and Elliott fly away.
11. John Williams contributed a memorable score that soared. Indy gets ready to make his leap of faith and the music just takes off.
12. The rats were real.
13. The script was very clever:
"Oh it breaks the heart...."
"And the head."
"I'll never forgive myself."
"It's ok Dad, I'm ok..."
"Thank God......it's a fake! You can tell by the cross section!!!"

I dunno...I just can't see how anyone can convince themselves that Skull is on the same level with it. It may be a fun movie if you like Indy, but to me it will always be a let-down.

Where to start really... I adore TLC, but your list is very, very subjective.

I'd agree, in principle, about Slocombe being a great cinematographer, but it's not really at the forefront of TLC (IMHO). I'd agree that Williams score for TLC is a strong point (possibly the best Indy score)... But the use of the Holy Grail as the McGuffin is pretty contrived, unoriginal, and has as much, if not less, basis in fact than aliens or the Loch Ness monster. I do like Connery as Jones Senior (in fact I think it's the movies biggest success), but that's more to do with the qualities he brings to the part, rather than how it's written on the page/directed.

I always thought Sallah and Marcus added little value to the movie (although I certainly don't dislike their inclusion as some do). The rats weren't scary... at all... The entire ending inside the Grail temple was always a little too predictable, typically over sentimental (as only Spielberg knows how to), and was trying too hard to be like Raiders. Still, I really enjoy the movie. Always have, always will... but I don't think it's a suitable benchmark to assess KOTCS from... due to the fact that I think they are very similar movies, in terms of tone, technical execution and overall quality (although I do prefer TLC).
 

Ajax the Great

New member
Darth Vile said:
Where to start really... I adore TLC, but your list is very, very subjective.

I'd agree, in principle, about Slocombe being a great cinematographer, but it's not really at the forefront of TLC (IMHO). I'd agree that Williams score for TLC is a strong point (possibly the best Indy score)... But the use of the Holy Grail as the McGuffin is pretty contrived, unoriginal, and has as much, if not less, basis in fact than aliens or the Loch Ness monster. I do like Connery as Jones Senior (in fact I think it's the movies biggest success), but that's more to do with the qualities he brings to the part, rather than how it's written on the page/directed.

I agree with all of that. I think if Sean Connery hadn't been in LC, that movie would have sucked. Everybody would have called a complete rehash of Raiders.

With regards to that list, there are some things I disagree with:
2. Nazis are not the essential Indy villains. I think the Thuggee were just as good.
3. Slocombe's great, but his work wasn't as apparent in LC. Raiders and ToD were the ones with the best cinematography, IMO.
5. I thought Spalko's death was one redeeming quality of the film. The visual quality of that scene just screamed good ol' 50s pulpy pulp.
8. The crystal skull legend isn't based in outer space - they're from another dimension remember? :)
9. Sallah and Marcus came along for the adventure with clear motivations. If they didn't have clear motivations then LC would have felt like Indy and an entourage. They muddled the motivations for the characters in CS.
12. The rats were not scary. The ants were scary. But I will agree with you on the reality factor.

All in all, I'll say that CS is the weakest, and it'll probably get the least use on my DVD player - but I'm over it. I accepted what they were trying to do and I think they accomplished that.

I partially blame myself for getting too invested in CS during production. Staring at all those behind the scenes set pics, watching trailers a bajillion times to get every single image, and reading message boards like these took the surprise out of the movie. I've always felt that when you go to a movie, you should know as little about it as possible to maximize your enjoyment. It helps sustain the illusion.
 

StoneTriple

New member
OmegaSeamaster said:
Crusade offers many great reasons why it is a better film than Crystal Skull.
To me, Crusade?s lack of originality alone is why it isn?t. For all it?s high points - and there are quite a few - it?s still just RaidersII

1. The great chemistry and comedic timing between Ford & Connery.
Agree

2. Nazis were always the essential Indy villains, with Elsa, Donovan and Vogel being fun antagonists (Mac, Spalko and Dovchenko were poor clones - Traitor: Elsa/Mac, Boss: Donovan/Spalko, Tough Guy: Vogel/Dovchenko)
For me, a draw.

3. The great Douglas Slocombe did the cinematography.
No opinion either way.

4. The tank chase in the desert was epic. (No monkeys)
At times too long and too silly - and yes, so were the monkeys and the crotch hits in Kingdom.

5. Walter Donovan's death was as good as Belloq's and left you feeling satisfied.
Better than Belloq to me.

6. The booby traps (3 challenges) were great...Skull hardly had any, were weak, or were left on the cutting room floor
A draw again - Crusade looses points for the silly giant blade. The leap of faith, however, is fantastic.

7. Lack of major CGI and Lucas' tendency to go off the rails kept mercifully in check
Draw - CGI or models that look like models & background paintings that look like background paintings. Also, I feel (judging by interviews) that this time it was Lucas who kept Speilberg reeled in on the comedy.

8. The Holy Grail was a classic McGuffin based in history/legend and not outer space
The Holy Grail is based only on legend, not history. Aliens in South American mythology is every bit as real in their paintings & beliefs as the grail is in western culture.

9. Sallah and Marcus came along for the adventure
More Raiders II, plus the humor wasn't natural, it was just straight comedy relief.

10. The ending was great. Indy saves his dad, Elsa pays for her arrogance, the knight bids the group farewell and the heroes ride off into the sunset as opposed to watching ET and Elliott fly away.
Indy & Marion getting married worked for me.

11. John Williams contributed a memorable score that soared. Indy gets ready to make his leap of faith and the music just takes off.
Definitely one of the better Indiana Jones scores and the music for the grail itself is one of Williams? strongest pieces ever.

12. The rats were real.
No opinion either way.

13. The script was very clever:
"Oh it breaks the heart...."
"And the head."
"I'll never forgive myself."
"It's ok Dad, I'm ok..."
"Thank God......it's a fake! You can tell by the cross section!!!"
It had some great moments and some cringe moments - Marcus as a bumbling idiot, as well as Indy?s entire trademark identity formed all on the same day and in just a few minutes - whip, snake fear, scar, hat - weak and very Star Wars Shrunken Universe.

I dunno...I just can't see how anyone can convince themselves that Skull is on the same level with it. It may be a fun movie if you like Indy, but to me it will always be a let-down.
To me, it?s better because it?s no re-hashed. I like Crusade a lot. In fact, I just watched it two days ago. However, in the end it?s just a return to Raiders. I prefer a new adventure each time.
 

Darth Vile

New member
Rocket Surgeon said:
As is EVERYTHING you say and do, good friend.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with having, or stating, a subjective opinion. You are as subjective as us all my friend. The point being that whilst objective and subjective critiques are not mutually exclusive, there isn't much mileage in bullet pointing individual preferences such as "KOTCS is a much better movie than TLC because it has Area 51 in it"... It may be a reason why one prefers KOTCS over TLC, but it's not a particularly scientific one.
 

Ajax the Great

New member
One fault I saw with LC that I didn't see in CS was Harrison's performance. LC for me was just Harrison Ford dressed up as Indy acting really, really grumpy.

In CS, Harrison was Indy again.
 
Darth Vile said:
...The point being that whilst objective and subjective critiques are not mutually exclusive, there isn't much mileage in bullet pointing individual preferences such as "KOTCS is a much better movie than TLC because it has Area 51 in it"... It may be a reason why one prefers KOTCS over TLC, but it's not a particularly scientific one.

When some one posts a reply to a question like:

Originally Posted by Dayne
Can anyone explain their views on why they think Last Crusade fits in with the originals

Seems odd to me to critique the list for being:

Darth Vile said:
...very, very subjective.

...and comes off condescending.
 

JP Jones

New member
StoneTriple said:
To me, Crusade?s lack of originality alone is why it isn?t. For all it?s high points - and there are quite a few - it?s still just RaidersII
I too used to think LC was a rehash, but since I saw "the making of LC" thing I realized it's just a lazily made film. GL and SS were out to make a character picture with Indy in it, I see how they would want that after the pulpy ToD failed with critics and audiences alike, but instead of making a unique original story like RotLA they picked up some generic Indy plot.
 

Nurhachi1991

Well-known member
JuniorJones said:
yes, we all like to see Dad dance again. We all want to see him do better but we don't want him to further degrade our memory of him.

I guess we all know in our hearts it's not the same and prehaps it's time to let go.


Yeah well what if Dads next dance was like Moonwalk status and we dont give him a chance. Never let go
 

JuniorJones

TR.N Staff Member
Nurhachi1991 said:
Yeah well what if Dads next dance was like Moonwalk status and we dont give him a chance. Never let go

Dad could moonwalk great in the 80s, he tried to moonwalk in the 00s and frankly it was, in most parts, embrassing. The Grandkids love it, they thought it was great because they didn't know better.

It's sad to see dad this way because of people's love for him is so great.

But they are blinded by this love because they want him to succeed they are prepared to let dad dance on regardless of the cost.
 

Ajax the Great

New member
Rocket Surgeon said:
When some one posts a reply to a question like:



Seems odd to me to critique the list for being:



...and comes off condescending.

I think Darth was trying to say something else. You can't just say that CS is better than LC because it has Area 51 and leave it at that. There's got to be a justification so that we can understand why a person holds that particular opinion. At least, that's how I look at it. Say whatever you want about any movie, as long as you have some type of reason.

JuniorJones said:
Dad could moonwalk great in the 80s, he tried to moonwalk in the 00s and frankly it was, in most parts, embrassing. The Grandkids love it, they thought it was great because they didn't know better.

It's sad to see dad this way because of people's love for him is so great.

But they are blinded by this love because they want him to succeed they are prepared to let dad dance on regardless of the cost.

I disagree on one point. Dad moonwalked in the 80s. He tried to breakdance in the 00s because George Lucas told him it would be cool.

I think Dad should stick to moonwalking.

I love this analogy. Let's chronicle the whole Indy 4 process with it.

In the late 1970s, George Lucas came to Steven Spielberg and said, "Steven, I got this great idea for a dance." And Steven said, "No George, I want to do ballroom dancing." and George said, "Screw that. Learn how to moonwalk." So they got Harrison Ford to moonwalk, and it was a big hit. A few years later, they got Harrison to wear some goth stuff and moonwalk, but audiences were mixed about it. So they finished off with more traditional moonwalking.

Then people started missing the dance. So George was like, "Yo Steve and Harrison! I got another idea--breakdancing!" But Steven wouldn't have it, because he wanted to do ballroom dancing. George wouldn't budge, Steven ended up doing his ballroom dancing and was very good at it. Then Harrison tried some crazy Russian traditional mixed with hiphop and his career fell in the toilet. He needed a legitimate dance. Finally, Steven agreed to breakdance.

That was illuminating.
 
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