A High Five for Indy V!

Robyn

New member
OOOhhh, end Skull with a wedding, start Tree with a funeral. You're killing the lovers out here man!

Yeah.. what a brilliant idea!!! In Indy 4 let's have Indy be really down because he thinks he's lost his chance in life at having a family, then we'll give him family and let Indy finally get the woman that was perfect for him and we'll end it with Indy being happier than he's ever been at his wedding... THEN we'll make Indy 5 and destroy everything we built up in Indy 4 and kill off his wife! It's brilliant!!!!:rolleyes: NOT!!!!(n)

I think if anyone seriously believes that Steven would kill off Marion's character than you should go back and watch the behind the scenes interviews from Crystal Skull.. The cast was so overly excited to have Karen back, or you can read the last issue of the Indiana Jones magazine, Shia recalls the first time Karen appeared on set "Everyone had tears in their eyes." Wake up and smell the coffee.. whether you love Marion or hate her, there is no way Steven would build up her Return and give them a happy wedding just to kill her character off and leave Indy sad wifeless, you missed the whole point of the wedding!


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And the Marion haters can go ahead and start bashing me now if you like, I just wanted to rant for minute! I'm done now:hat:
 

James

Well-known member
ronicle said:
And the Marion haters can go ahead and start bashing me now if you like

As Indy would say, "Take it easy." ;)

Spielberg and Lucas would never kill off Marion, because it wouldn't be true to the genre. There's very little pathos in the world of Indiana Jones, just as there was very little in the films which inspired it.

Lucas has known for years that today's fans prefer a darker vision of their childhood heroes. In addition to notorious fan scripts which reduced Marion to an alcoholic (Sons of Darkness) and Indy to a man full of regrets (Sword of Arthur), Lucas was able to gauge this firsthand via the SW prequels. Yet despite this, KOTCS contained some of the lightest touches in the series- because that's what was dictated by the genre.

(None of which is intended as a comment on the OP- just a little reassurance to ronicle that she doesn't need to worry so much about losing Marion. :hat: )
 

Stoo

Well-known member
Pale Horse said:
As far as the cardinal posts go, this is one of the twist/key plot points. 'Everyone' thinks a compass only has four points, North-South-East-West...but in actuality it has five. The Lakota speak of this along with other more ancient cultures.
The fifth cardinal point is the centre.:) We're on a similar wavelength, Master Horse, as I was imagining Marion getting killed.

ronicle said:
And the Marion haters can go ahead and start bashing me now if you like, I just wanted to rant for minute! I'm done now
Wanting Marion to die in Indy 5 does not make one a "Marion hater". (I don't think any Indy fan "hates" Marion.) Anyway, what's with all the Spielberg business? He's the director, not the writer of the story and, furthermore, unless you share the same brain, you don't really know what S.S. would/wouldn't do.
 

Pale Horse

Moderator
Staff member
Quick Synopsis - (like the secret shadow...snicker)

ACT I

Indy is seen as a washed up old failure - Indy Noir as this forum would have it. There, in Alaska, he is comforted by booze and by a nurturing 'Indian' and presented with the possibility of resolution to the death and absence in his life

  • Enter The Indian
    Enter the death of Marion
    Enter the abandonment of Mutt to a far away land

Cut to Mutt

  • Presented with the opportunity to find 'the garden' though not as we know it.
    In Forum like-mindedness - Mutt becomes drunk with Fortune and Glory

    • Lust of Flesh - Money
      Lust of Eyes - Fame
      Pride of Life - Reconcile himself to dad, and family legacy

    Presentation of Nemesis
    • The Bilderbergs/CIA/RIAA/KGB N.W.O. type with intent on human capital
      • The power of to be like gods (tree of life)
        The power of ultimate weapon (flaming sword)
        The power to influence the whole world (possible alien cops)

    Mutt unknowingly, then knowingly becomes a pawn:
    • Reference to KOTCS "God's Head is not like that, man"
      Mutt recalls a story of god's power from his dad (RotLA reference)
      Mutt decides he's not ready to suffer god's fate


    Indy awakens in Alaska, 'feels' Mutt and decides to hearken to Indian calling

ACT II

The quest is on. Indy must reverse engineer the clues to the location to the garden of Eden with the information included in the Original Post while at the same time Mutt is discovering them as part of his Mandatory Indenture.

  • Insert details here I am not at liberty to disclose, but piece-meal of the Raven's scraps will fill in a lot of the 'holes' I'm sure the skeptics will point out.

ACT III

Indy and Mutt are on a collision course to the Four Rivers. The five pillars have been realized, the five points have been followed, and the five elements have been combined on the pentagram married to the Torah. Again the five land masses have been redlined in the Act above. Now comes the finale

  • Indy and Mutt become enemies, due to the BCRK-NWO above.
    Indy can't lose Mutt to Eden's Fate
    Skywalker Ranch provides great CGI of Eden and Sword powers against said BCRK-NWO
    The Tree of Life and its mythology is revealed in the redemption with Father and Son
 

Crack that whip

New member
Stoo said:
The fifth cardinal point is the centre.:) We're on a similar wavelength, Master Horse, as I was imagining Marion getting killed.

Wanting Marion to die in Indy 5 does not make one a "Marion hater".

Indeed, but wanting her to die and suggesting it'd feel like "offing Jar Jar Binks" (as the OP did) darn well might, wouldn't you say? ;)

To elaborate further on what I said earlier... I'd actually be open to the idea of killing Marion, if it were done in a way that genuinely served the story, further enriched the character of Indy, etc., and/or allowed us to at least perceive a satisfying period of marital bliss (or at least contentment) for our hero and heroine, united at last after several decades and at least a couple false starts. I think I'd want a fifth movie that could be watched right after the fourth without souring the ending of the fourth (the way the beginning of, say, Alien3 soured the ending of Aliens for many fans of that series - not that it did for everyone, of course, and many people hated Alien3 for other reasons anyway while continuing to love Aliens, but still). And the one thing I absolutely don't want is for Marion to be killed off just so she'll be "out of the way," whether to simply avoid dragging "the wife" along on an adventure, or to allow for a new romantic lead for those viewers who quickly tire of any particular one.
 

Niteshade007

New member
ronicle said:
And the Marion haters can go ahead and start bashing me now if you like, I just wanted to rant for minute! I'm done now:hat:

I definately don't want Marion to die, and while I didn't care for her lack of development in Skull, I don't consider myself a "hater." She's still easily my favorite Indy girl. But I wouldn't say it's beyond the realm of possibility that she gets bumped off.

James said:
Spielberg and Lucas would never kill off Marion, because it wouldn't be true to the genre. There's very little pathos in the world of Indiana Jones, just as there was very little in the films which inspired it.

Keep in mind though that they've killed off a love interest before in the movies (Elsa), in the books (his wife), and at least one that I can think of from the TV show (the girl from Treasure of the Peacock's Eye). They also bumped off his dad and Brody. Sure, one of the actor's was dead and the other uninterested, but it's not like killing off a beloved character or any character that Indy loves is unheard of.
 

James

Well-known member
Niteshade007 said:
it's not like killing off a beloved character or any character that Indy loves is unheard of.

It's not unheard of, but as you pointed out, it's generally due to practical concerns. (After all, Elsa was a Nazi! :D )

Once they brought Marion back for KOTCS, I think it ended any chance of them killing the character off. This just isn't that series. Judging by what has come before, I would expect them to draw inspiration from a B movie like Another Thin Man before a modern sequel like Rocky Balboa.
 

Niteshade007

New member
But consider what Nora was reduced to when it came to the Thin Man movies. She was a mommy who did nothing. By the third one, she had lost that spark of intrigue, and it became more about her taking care of their child. In one of them I remember she snuck into a locker room to do some investigating, but other than that she was no longer a detective or an equal. In Song of the Thin Man did she even do anything remotely interesting? We've already seen that they don't know what to do with Marion (well, that's not entirely true...she can drive a car...) why drag it out any further? I'd love to see the old, spunky Marion return, but if they bring her back I'm sure we'll see the progression Myrna Loy's character took, from a great, strong character into a pathetic sidekick with nothing intersting to say or do.
 

Robyn

New member
Niteshade007 said:
But consider what Nora was reduced to when it came to the Thin Man movies. She was a mommy who did nothing. By the third one, she had lost that spark of intrigue, and it became more about her taking care of their child. In one of them I remember she snuck into a locker room to do some investigating, but other than that she was no longer a detective or an equal. In Song of the Thin Man did she even do anything remotely interesting? We've already seen that they don't know what to do with Marion (well, that's not entirely true...she can drive a car...) why drag it out any further? I'd love to see the old, spunky Marion return, but if they bring her back I'm sure we'll see the progression Myrna Loy's character took, from a great, strong character into a pathetic sidekick with nothing interesting to say or do.

One of the things that was the most ridiculous is when Pale referred to Marion's character as "Jar Jar Binks"!!!???:rolleyes: (n) :mad: I am glad to hear that you don't hate Marion, but since Mutt is all grown up, she doesn't have to take the mommy role, I was disappointed with the way they gave her nothing to do in kotcs too. BUT it is still possible they can bring the Marion we saw in Raiders back again, you have to admit that! All we need is a good writer who knows how to handle Marion's character like Kasdan did, she doesn't have to be the wife that does nothing, she could be an awesome partner just like she was in Raiders, and THAT is what I'm hoping for! Also you have to remember that Elsa died because she was a two faced Nazi, Deidre was only in a book, and they did want Connery back for his role but he declined.... Karen has already declared that she would never turn down a role in Indy, so there is no problem in that department ;)

Oh and thanks for the reassuring words James ;)
 
ronicle said:
One of the things that was the most ridiculous is when Pale referred to Marion's character as "Jar Jar Binks"!

Relax, we all know the only mate to the universally hated character in Star Wars is the most hated character in Indiana Jones:Willie Scott.

Now there's a sitcom! He can bumble and break her porcelain collectibles and she can scream and yell!

ronicle said:
since Mutt is all grown up, she doesn't have to take the mommy role, I was disappointed with the way they gave her nothing to do in kotcs too. BUT it is still possible they can bring the Marion we saw in Raiders back again, you have to admit that! All we need is a good writer who knows how to handle Marion's character like Kasdan did, she doesn't have to be the wife that does nothing, she could be an awesome partner just like she was in Raiders, and THAT is what I'm hoping for!

She could be an awesome partner, but she has to be played as a liability because she's someone Indy cares about, (and it would be an Indy movie after all). If she somehow sacrificed herself for Mutt, (she doesn't have to die really) it could work...but the violence can't be cartoony. There has to be some consequence...unfortunately why CS failed.

The reason you care so much for her is that they were getting beat up/thrown around...and shot, not shot AT, SHOT! (well Indy was anyway).
 

Robyn

New member
Rocket Surgeon said:
Relax, we all know the only mate to the universally hated character in Star Wars is the most hated character in Indiana Jones:Willie Scott.

Now there's a sitcom! He can bumble and break her porcelain collectibles and she can scream and yell!

LOL:hat:

Rocket Surgeon said:
She could be an awesome partner, but she has to be played as a liability because she's someone Indy cares about, The reason you care so much for her is that they were getting beat up/thrown around...and shot, not shot AT, SHOT!

I agree with you there...

Rocket Surgeon said:
(and it would be an Indy movie after all). If she somehow sacrificed herself for Mutt, (she doesn't have to die really) it could work...but the violence can't be cartoony. There has to be some consequence...unfortunately why CS failed.

Can you give me an example of a scene? You must have some idea in your head.. So you want her to get the crap beat out of her or shot at and have the audience think she died only to have her come back like in Raiders, is that what you're thinking?
 

Pale Horse

Moderator
Staff member
Marion in KOTCS = JarJar in Phantom Menace. The two were only included (respectfully) to show the infantile and innocent perspective of a story that was both unnecessary and unwanted.

How anyone can say that Marion in KOTCS is a compelling and story advancing character with depth and interest is beyond me.

Ronicle, I have the deepest respect for you and love the threads and contribution you make. I also sympathize with your love of Marion, Indy's supposed first. But I can not take the film canon and believe that Marion in Raiders and Marion in KOTCS as one and the same. The ditzy mom in kingdom must die.

I also believe it would not work to martyr Marion for Mutt; that would be like making Jar Jar a planetary ambassador. It just doesn't work.
 
ronicle said:
Can you give me an example of a scene? You must have some idea in your head.. So you want her to get the crap beat out of her or shot at and have the audience think she died only to have her come back like in Raiders, is that what you're thinking?

I'm not for repeating Raiders, (fakesies!) or Crusade, (whew! just in time!). I think they have to take a beating...in SOME manner the violence/threat has to be believeable. SOMEONE has to die or get mutilated/maimed/disfigured! There HAS to be consequence...and not just to some peripheral character. We have to see it in the act...not just a bunch of dead bodies and the SOUND of gunfire.

Whatever form this takes, I don't know yet...but this cartoon S#!t has to end!

Pale Horse said:
I also believe it would not work to martyr Marion for Mutt; that would be like making Jar Jar a planetary ambassador. It just doesn't work.

...ah, where there's a will...
 

Robyn

New member
Pale Horse said:
How anyone can say that Marion in KOTCS is a compelling and story advancing character with depth and interest is beyond me.

Ronicle, I have the deepest respect for you and love the threads and contribution you make. I also sympathize with your love of Marion, Indy's supposed first. But I can not take the film canon and believe that Marion in Raiders and Marion in KOTCS as one and the same. The ditzy mom in kingdom must die.

I agree with on somethings but absolutely not the part where you think Marion's character should be killed off Pale Horse! You are absolutely right that the Marion we saw in kotcs shouldn't come back, but the Marion we saw in Raiders can and should come back!! Why can't you see how cool it could be if they brought the Raiders Marion back as Indy's perfect partner?! Like I said Mutt is an adult now, she doesn't have to be the mommy or a silly tagalong wife! All we need is Kasdan or someone as good, Kasdan *knows* how Marion's character should be written! But thanks for the sympathy Pale, I do appreciate it :hat:

Rocket Surgeon said:
I'm not for repeating Raiders, (fakesies!) or Crusade, (whew! just in time!). I think they have to take a beating...in SOME manner the violence/threat has to be believeable. SOMEONE has to die or get mutilated/maimed/disfigured! There HAS to be consequence...and not just to some peripheral character. We have to see it in the act...not just a bunch of dead bodies and the SOUND of gunfire.

Whatever form this takes, I don't know yet...but this cartoon S#!t has to end!

Well when you come up with a scene Rocket let me know, you know I love your ideas, as long as it doesn't involve killing off Marion(without bringing her back) I want to hear it!
 

RedeemedChild

New member
Pale Horse said:
Marion in KOTCS = JarJar in Phantom Menace. The two were only included (respectfully) to show the infantile and innocent perspective of a story that was both unnecessary and unwanted.

How anyone can say that Marion in KOTCS is a compelling and story advancing character with depth and interest is beyond me.

Ronicle, I have the deepest respect for you and love the threads and contribution you make. I also sympathize with your love of Marion, Indy's supposed first. But I can not take the film canon and believe that Marion in Raiders and Marion in KOTCS as one and the same. The ditzy mom in kingdom must die.

I also believe it would not work to martyr Marion for Mutt; that would be like making Jar Jar a planetary ambassador. It just doesn't work.

Honestly I don't like Jar Jar Binks, however Marion is on a whole different platform. Marion Ravenwood is one of my favorite Indiana Jones Franchise characters and I like her.

I can't see why some people dislike Marion and Mutt. I think that Mutt is a nice addition to the franchise and I don't think it would be a wise decision for Marion to be killed off either. While I think that Marion should play a role in the next Indiana Jones movie I do believe that her role should be more reserved and less prominent than it was in Kingdom of the Crystal Skull.

What I'm trying to say is that her role in Indiana Jones 5 should be like that of Clark's mother in Smallville.
 

Robyn

New member
RedeemedChild said:
Honestly I don't like Jar Jar Binks, however Marion is on a whole different platform. Marion Ravenwood is one of my favorite Indiana Jones Franchise characters and I like her.

I can't see why some people dislike Marion and Mutt. I think that Mutt is a nice addition to the franchise and I don't think it would be a wise decision for Marion to be killed off either. While I think that Marion should play a role in the next Indiana Jones movie I do believe that her role should be more reserved and less prominent than it was in Kingdom of the Crystal Skull.

What I'm trying to say is that her role in Indiana Jones 5 should be like that of Clark's mother in Smallville.

I like Mutt, I just didn't like his attitude in kotcs, it pissed me off, it was better at the wedding though, much less of an A-hole at that part..

That's just what I'm saying though! Why does Marion have to be "the mom" if Mutt is all grown up, why can't she go back to being Indy's kick-ass partner like in Raiders!!!?? I don't want her role reduced or taken away, I want the Raiders Marion back!
 

Pale Horse

Moderator
Staff member
This discussion demonstrates why noir is always touted by venerated members (past and present) of this forum.

Tough gritty soul wrenching performances always come from characters who experience loss. Marion was a fireball in Raiders, because (as she was presented by the screenwriter) she lost her dad, and Indy too...that's how we found in the Raven Bar. Lost and empty. That made her real.

Mutt had no loss in his life either. The story arc shown he had an absent (step) father in Collin (Williams) and a loopy mother. He's an adult adolescent at best, mimicking James Dean 'just to be bad'....

Surely he's privileged, but no real loss.

Indy V needs to be filled with loss. Lots of it. Like Rocket says, real consequence, real emotion, real pain. Only then will we find our hero redeemed and will we get the redemption we're looking for.

It's the only way back into the garden, so to speak. (For when you eat of the tree, you will surly die...) That is why I high five this plan.
 
Pale Horse said:
Indy V needs to be filled with loss. Lots of it. Like Rocket says, real consequence, real emotion, real pain. Only then will we find our hero redeemed and will we get the redemption we're looking for.

It's the only way back into the garden, so to speak. (For when you eat of the tree, you will surly die...) That is why I high five this plan.

Not just lip service!

Hear hear!
 

James

Well-known member
Niteshade007 said:
But consider what Nora was reduced to when it came to the Thin Man movies. She was a mommy who did nothing. By the third one, she had lost that spark of intrigue, and it became more about her taking care of their child.

But why would you expect them to imitate the later entries, as opposed to the early ones? I mentioned Another at random, since that was an instance where both had to travel for an adventure. I could've easily said the first or second, though.

The later films downplayed Nora's crimefighting involvement, but they still retained an offbeat relationship between the two. After all, Nick had always taken pains to keep Nora out of the case anyway, since she wasn't really a detective. (If anything, it was Nick Jr. who became a non-issue in the series. He was completely MIA in The Thin Man Goes Home- a film in which you'd expect his inclusion to be a no-brainer.)

If Lucas and Spielberg are trying to find a way to involve Marion in the adventure, doesn't it seem likely for them to say, "Hey, maybe we could approach it like a Thin Man movie?".

It's certainly more logical than expecting them to say, "You know what would be great? If we made this really dark and somber, like the recent Batman, Bond, and Rocky films. That's what is popular right now, so maybe we should modernize Indy as well?"
 
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