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Old 06-13-2008, 12:11 AM   #76
Lonsome Indy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mothy
The reason why KOTCS is making money, is because people are hoping it is going to be as good as the previous three. Cashing in on memories, just like the first teaser. It just is not as good as the trilogy, no way near. Temple of Doom is a classic compared to this tripe.

Filmphoenix, get real. TOD is totally different beast that KOTCS. At least TOD is grounded, hell, anything is grounded compared to KOTCS. The arguments made against KOTCS are by far stronger than those made against TOD. KOTCS will not age as well as TOD did.

im so tired of these arguments, granted i do respect your opinion but does it affect mine? nope. i figure you either liked it or you didnt and thats fine with me.
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Old 06-13-2008, 01:10 AM   #77
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Its too bad the quoted text of people on your ignore list aren't hidden as well.
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Old 06-13-2008, 01:14 AM   #78
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Indy 4 lovers thread?

......i can feel the love in here.....its soooo beautiful.

me an Indy 4 fan. and glad to! would of hated it if i didnt like it

heck i would luv the movie if he just stood there and rocked back and forth on his heels. lol
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Old 06-13-2008, 02:07 PM   #79
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I was afraid if I read the Frank Darabont script I would end up wishing that that had been filmed. After reading it I really like KOTCS a lot better! Darabont's wasn't a bad script but kind of a)trying too hard to remake Raiders and b)keep up with the current action flicks. Yeah Koepp's is a mishmash but I like it. All my favorite scenes and characters from the movie aren't in Darabont's and all the CG stuff that kind of bothered me at the end like the monkeys, ants, waterfall aliens and stuff still is.

Last edited by SterankoII : 06-13-2008 at 02:20 PM.
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Old 06-13-2008, 02:13 PM   #80
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Freakin' love this movie. It's been too long since my last viewing. I've been reading the books and comics and stuff but nothing can compare to SEEING Indy do what he does.
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Old 06-13-2008, 02:23 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rococo
I've been thinking about that- if they had been able to pull off keeping Marion a secret until the film premiered, that would have been something!

According to Karen Allen, this was actually Spielberg's initial plan. He didn't want anyone to know that Marion was back until they saw the film on May 22. So they tried very hard to keep her hidden on set, but ultimately realized how futile it was. After all, there was still Darabont claiming that he brought her back for his script. They may have pulled it off back in the early 80's, but then, it wouldn't have been much of a surprise that soon after ROTLA.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SterankoII
I was afraid if I read the Frank Darabont script I would end up wishing that that had been filmed. After reading it I really like KOTCS a lot better!

I had similar thoughts before reading it, as well as that nagging suspicion that they might've turned down a truly fantastic script. But I don't think City of the Gods would've been any better received than KOTCS, since both share the same controversial elements.
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Old 06-13-2008, 03:21 PM   #82
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i'm an Indy 4 lover. took like 3 viewings to get me to love it, but i got there.
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Old 06-13-2008, 03:45 PM   #83
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Im so afraid to watch it again, it just trouble my mind to think of that
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Old 06-13-2008, 03:58 PM   #84
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Ive only seen it once but am dying to see it again in the hope that it'll magically make me love it like it seems to have done for other people.
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Old 06-13-2008, 04:00 PM   #85
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thats my concern, that make me hates it the most
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Old 06-13-2008, 04:17 PM   #86
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Sure it wasn't perfect, but it was an overall good fun movie that had some pretty perfect moments.

Also, I love the "sure some people liked it but most people generally hated it" arguments. The majority of reviews are favorable, it's just not a resounding "WOOHOO! I wanna go again!"

By the way... I WANNA GO AGAIN!
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Old 06-13-2008, 07:18 PM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mothy
The reason why KOTCS is making money, is because people are hoping it is going to be as good as the previous three. Cashing in on memories, just like the first teaser. It just is not as good as the trilogy, no way near. Temple of Doom is a classic compared to this tripe.

Filmphoenix, get real. TOD is totally different beast that KOTCS. At least TOD is grounded, hell, anything is grounded compared to KOTCS. The arguments made against KOTCS are by far stronger than those made against TOD. KOTCS will not age as well as TOD did.

Any of the arguments made against KOTCS can also be made against any of the other sequels, and have. Take TOD as an example. Three of the biggest arguments

1. Bad effects
KOCS= cgi
TOD= Bad green screen
2. The kid
KOTCS= Mutt
TOD= Short Round
3. Story elements
KOTCS= Ailens
TOD= Voo Doo and mind control

All of your arguments mirror things said about the other sequels when they were released. Voo Doo and mind control are no more grounded than the alien bit. There is nothing grounded about falling from a plane on a raft and not at least getting hurt. I don't know if you were to young to remember the complaints about TOD, but I remember them. They sounded very much about your complaints. As for it being a classic so are Ed Wood films. KOTCS fits into the series better than TOD did. You are the one who needs to get real, people hated TOD when it came out just as much as you hate KOTCS.

Last edited by Filmphoenix : 06-13-2008 at 07:25 PM.
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Old 06-13-2008, 11:11 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IAdventurer01
Sure it wasn't perfect, but it was an overall good fun movie that had some pretty perfect moments.

Also, I love the "sure some people liked it but most people generally hated it" arguments. The majority of reviews are favorable, it's just not a resounding "WOOHOO! I wanna go again!"

By the way... I WANNA GO AGAIN!
No thats not true, i would say it's about 50 50. Some liked it, some did not. No way did most people hate it.
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Old 06-13-2008, 11:30 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by Flash Dixson
No thats not true, i would say it's about 50 50. Some liked it, some did not. No way did most people hate it.

Not at all. I agree that it's pretty much cut down the middle. It's just that the naysayers are a bit more vocal at the moment, skewing the scale. Those of us that loved it need to get out there and start spreading the word!
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Old 06-13-2008, 11:53 PM   #90
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Well Im going to watch this film again tomorrow night. Bearing in mind that I did enjoy watching it the first time, Im just hoping that I love it this time rather than feeling disappointed. And heck I didn't even mind the alien.
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Old 06-14-2008, 12:03 AM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparrow
Not at all. I agree that it's pretty much cut down the middle. It's just that the naysayers are a bit more vocal at the moment, skewing the scale. Those of us that loved it need to get out there and start spreading the word!

*salutes* You got it! *runs outside to tell everybody how good KOTCS was*



Quote:
Originally posted by Quickening
Well Im going to watch this film again tomorrow night. Bearing in mind that I did enjoy watching it the first time, Im just hoping that I love it this time rather than feeling disappointed.

I saw it for a second time about two nights ago and I loved it a lot more than I did the first time. (Cause I too, felt a tad disappointed at times. But I still liked it.)
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Old 06-14-2008, 02:28 PM   #92
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Okay so Ive just watched it for the second time and all I'll say is...

OOGA-BOOGA-CHOOGA




But also that like a lot of people, I did enjoy it more on the second viewing. Im sure that's because once you've seen the film once you know what to expect and your expectations have either been lowered, met or exceeded depending on your point of view. I was so disappointed the first time round. And yeah, there's no question that this is in no way, shape or form the Indiana Jones film I wanted. But having accepted that it is what it is I enjoyed seeing Indy in another adventure even if it still isn't worthy of the trilogy in my eyes. Will I watch it again? Definately. Will I ever love it like the original trilogy? No. It falls short on so many levels. But I'll enjoy it as an unexceptional Indy film.
Just want to go over a few of the key elements that I liked and didn't like on the film:

- It seems to me that this film despite the nuked fridge starts off excellently. I believe there is actually a point where it suddenly stops being an awesome Indy movie and takes a nosedive into the average and mediocre. The opening scene in the warehouse is classic Indy. But it's never followed up with more. It really does show that this script is pieced together from a variety of sources.

- After seeing the film for the first time, I did two videos analysing the film on my youtube channel. One of my complaints was that the character of Mac was a bit pointless and undeveloped. Somebody commented saying that he felt that Mac was one of the most developed characters in any Indiana Jones film because he wasn't simply greedy, he was "hopelessly greedy". On this second viewing I saw what he meant and so that was one complaint that was wiped from the slate.
Oh don't get me wrong, the whole double/triple agent stuff is still nonsense, but I see a depth to the character I didn't see previously.

- The tarzan scene. Utterly beyond redemption. Just ******* stupid.

- The jungle chase. Some really stupid moments and bad CGI just ruin this for me. My opinion hasn't changed on it. And as others have stated, what a waste of the jungle cutter.

- Marion, I wish she wasn't in this film. It occured to me during the jungle camp scene when Indy and Spalko are standing together trying to solve the riddles how much I liked them working together. Then Marion shows up like a ghost at the feast to lower the tone for me. Seriously she's just ridiculously goofy in this film.
I still maintain that Indiana Jones 4 should have had a love interest who was also the villian. Not a traitor like Elsa Schneider, but a flat out villian. At the end of Indiana Jones and the Infernal Machine Indy makes friends with his Communist opponent in what I found to be quite a touching scene. Spalko would've fit the bill perfectly but alas it was not to be.

- I feel there is a larger problem with the villians in this film. Namely that they aren't bad. At all. Sure they kill some soldiers at the beginning, but the audience doesn't care about some nameless grunts. They don't do anything to justify their horrible demise. Their only "crimes" are that they want what indy wants and they're not capitalists. Not good enough unless you're a flag-waving moron.
The fight with the big Russian was quite enjoyable but like most other things, just not good enough compared to the trilogy. Also I really, really felt sorry for Spalko when she died. She looks so cute and sad standing there before she was consumed

- What happened to John Williams here? Why doesn't this film have its own strong score like the other three? I hated how they reused the Grail and Raiders themes. Felt cheap. A film shouldn't need to evolk past glories for its audience. It should stand by itself. Especially Indy 4.

- I never cared much about the inclusion of the alien, and this time round, I actually quite liked it's presense. Definately had a cold menace to it.


Well that's all I can think of for now my loves.
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Old 06-14-2008, 02:49 PM   #93
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I'm constantly hearing bizarre stories about who likes and doesn't like these movies. All of the film buffs in Internetland and all of the Indy fans here seem to be a very niche and vocal group. Here are my two outstanding examples.

I was buying 5 of the Indy books at a Barnes & Noble about a week after the movie and the cashier woman asked if I had seen it. I sheepishly confessed I'd seen it 5 times by that point and that I loved it. She proceeded to tell me that she went with a bunch of her friends including someone who isn't into that kind of thing. She way she put it, "If it's not The English Patient or some foreign art film, she doesn't like it." The kicker is that she apparently loved the Indy film. Go figure.

In a similar vein, my friend Tim's father, who is a self-proclaimed movie critic, went with his younger kids and came back loving it as well.

My point being, I hear more stories of this kind than the opposite kind. Sure there are all the goofy moments that happen, as described in the above post, but I think that most of the general audience is more willing to laugh with those scenes than at them.
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Old 06-14-2008, 02:59 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by YouNeverKnow
Sure there are all the goofy moments that happen, as described in the above post, but I think that most of the general audience is more willing to laugh with those scenes than at them.

The most frequent comment I've heard is basically, "Hey, it's Indiana Jones." The implication being that this is a character where audiences expect over-the-top or unbelievable elements.
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Old 06-14-2008, 03:05 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by James
The most frequent comment I've heard is basically, "Hey, it's Indiana Jones." The implication being that this is a character where audiences expect over-the-top or unbelievable elements.

The character is bigger than the movie for most casual fans.

I love KotCS now that I look back on it, but that saying may hold true for me as well. Harrison's presence carried KotCS, even if he was less of a "doer" in this film than in the others.
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Old 06-16-2008, 06:06 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by Mothy
I strongly disagree. You either are very easily pleased or sitting in a cot with a toy laptop writing this stuff out. When you get a little older, you will see what trash they dished out with KOTCS.

Sorry, just ploughing my way through this thread and I had to laugh at this. I'm 39, married, with 2 kids and my own business. How old will I have to get before I see the light and recognise KOTCS to be 'trash' Mothy?

Anyway, back to the point, since this is an appreciation thread.

I thought it was great seeing a world weary, older Indy, struggling to cope with a changing world. The fifties references were great, and I thought it was very clever how awkward Indy seemed in the Doom Town scenario as opposed to the later Jungle scenes.

Seeing him hook up with an old flame appropriate to his age was marvellous, particularly as Marion is such a great character. I found it quite heartwarming, especially the Wedding scene at the end.

Yes there were flaws, but it was so much fun that I am willing to overlook the dumber aspects. My Wife and kids loved it too.
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Old 06-16-2008, 09:02 AM   #97
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Your post inspired me to just make a few comments. Not trying to argue; just making some observations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quickening
- The jungle chase. Some really stupid moments and bad CGI just ruin this for me. My opinion hasn't changed on it. And as others have stated, what a waste of the jungle cutter.

I agree that the jungle cutter was sadly underused. As far as the CGI goes, I've given up trying to figure out which scenes used it. You really can't tell and it's unfair to assume that everything is CGI. I'm waiting for the DVD where hopefully the "making of" feature will set things straight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quickening
- I feel there is a larger problem with the villians in this film. Namely that they aren't bad. At all. Sure they kill some soldiers at the beginning, but the audience doesn't care about some nameless grunts. They don't do anything to justify their horrible demise. Their only "crimes" are that they want what indy wants and they're not capitalists. Not good enough unless you're a flag-waving moron.

I've heard a lot of people say this, and I strongly disagree. I think Spalko is the most evil Indy villian since Mola Ram. Remember that speech she gave while Indy was looking at the skull? She said she wanted to essentially brainwash the world, and she looks positively psychotic while doing it. I feel it's one of the best, and creepiest, scenes in the whole series. I get chills whenever I see it. Also don't forget how they ruthlessly slaughtered the entire Ugha tribe.

If you want a lame villain, Donovan wanted nothing but eternal life, and the Nazis were hardly ruthless in LC.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quickening
The fight with the big Russian was quite enjoyable but like most other things, just not good enough compared to the trilogy. Also I really, really felt sorry for Spalko when she died. She looks so cute and sad standing there before she was consumed

Did anyone notice that during the final scene when Spalko is being overwhelmed by the alien knowledge that she desperately sputters out "Cover.....cover it!", just like she said in the tent when the skull was driving Indy mad. I thought it was a really cool, haunting reference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quickening
- What happened to John Williams here? Why doesn't this film have its own strong score like the other three? I hated how they reused the Grail and Raiders themes. Felt cheap. A film shouldn't need to evolk past glories for its audience. It should stand by itself. Especially Indy 4.

I didn't see his use of the Ark and Grail themes as a lazy rehash. I thought they were appropriate tributes. For the warehouse, really what other theme could he have used? It was just like when he uses the theme in LC when they find the picture of the ark on the catacomb wall. And as for the grail theme, it was signifying once again a father-son relationship, except this time Indy was the father figure. I found it very touching.
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Old 06-16-2008, 05:08 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by A_True_Believer
I've heard a lot of people say this, and I strongly disagree. I think Spalko is the most evil Indy villian since Mola Ram. Remember that speech she gave while Indy was looking at the skull? She said she wanted to essentially brainwash the world, and she looks positively psychotic while doing it. I feel it's one of the best, and creepiest, scenes in the whole series. I get chills whenever I see it. Also don't forget how they ruthlessly slaughtered the entire Ugha tribe.

I agree, and think the Russian 'threat' was as credible as any of the other sequels. I don't see how the Grail was any greater just because Henry Sr. labeled it a "race against evil". Even Indy chalked that up to Henry's "obsession", and it was ultimately revealed that the Grail didn't really deliver quite what the Nazis had in mind.

Spalko also outlined a plan that was a whole lot clearer than the vague conquest the Thuggees were plotting. Even if they had found the remaining two stones, I'm not really sure it would've done them much good. We're still talking about a small, unorganized cult that fell as soon as some rifles showed up.

And of course, the great irony in ROTLA is that Indy doesn't really stop the Nazis from acquiring the Ark. Or from unleashing its destructive power upon the world.
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Old 06-16-2008, 05:18 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by James
I agree, and think the Russian 'threat' was as credible as any of the other sequels. I don't see how the Grail was any greater just because Henry Sr. labeled it a "race against evil". Even Indy chalked that up to Henry's "obsession", and it was ultimately revealed that the Grail didn't really deliver quite what the Nazis had in mind.

Spalko also outlined a plan that was a whole lot clearer than the vague conquest the Thuggees were plotting. Even if they had found the remaining two stones, I'm not really sure it would've done them much good. We're still talking about a small, unorganized cult that fell as soon as some rifles showed up.

And of course, the great irony in ROTLA is that Indy doesn't really stop the Nazis from acquiring the Ark. Or from unleashing its destructive power upon the world.

Yeah it's not the badguys overall plan I have a problem with it's that they don't really do anything to make themselves detestable. Beloq was the kind of "respected adversary" guy but Toht and Dietrich were just scum. Mola Ram was plain evil. This is established by the fact that he rips peoples hearts out, enslaves children and drugs people. Walter Donovan was not only treacherous and working for the Nazis, but he shoots Henry Jones Sr.
Spalko and her Russian soldiers did nothing that would make the audience hate them. They weren't bad enough. That's what I mean. I think Spalko should've used that sword at some point.
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Old 06-16-2008, 05:19 PM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A_True_Believer
I agree that the jungle cutter was sadly underused. As far as the CGI goes, I've given up trying to figure out which scenes used it. You really can't tell and it's unfair to assume that everything is CGI. I'm waiting for the DVD where hopefully the "making of" feature will set things straight.

Really? I thought the CGI was so bad, especially during the fencing sequence, that it must have looked that way on purpose. Some reviewers have said so but I suspect that's giving Lucas a get out card.
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