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View Poll Results: Rey is the progeny of...
Luke & (Mara?) 5 41.67%
Obi Wan & (Satine?) 5 41.67%
Qui Gon & (Shmi?) 0 0%
Anakin & (midi-chlorians?) 1 8.33%
Palpatine or/and Dooku 1 8.33%
Voters: 12. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 12-24-2017, 03:40 PM   #51
Moedred
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Spoiler!

Haven't seen it, but it sounds like Luke went out like Kirk in 1994, and neither actor is happy about it. Shatner summoned the power of a ghostwriter to resurrect his character, so who knows. Here's a prediction for 2018: Rian Johnson submits his outline for a new trilogy to Lucasfilm, then waits by the phone, and waits and waits. An epic rant from Scriptshadow:
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How did a Star Wars movie this bad escape Disney’s notoriously intense evaluation process? I have a theory about this. Bob Iger has been VERY PUBLIC about how much he likes this film. I have a feeling that from the beginning, from the second he read the script, he loved it. And what that did is it relieved anyone under him of blame. For the first time, Kathleen Kennedy didn’t have to micro-manage the production because it didn’t matter how the film turned out. If it’s bad, you blame Bob Iger. So she relaxed, let Rian do whatever he wanted, and created a work hierarchy reminiscent of George Lucas on the prequels, where everyone nodded and said, “Great idea!” I predict that this movie sinks fast once word of how bad it is gets out. And that in 3 months, we’ll hear that Rian’s new trilogy has been canceled. I mean, honestly, how could you endorse any new Johnson Star Wars movie after this one? The guy only had to introduce 3 new characters in The Last Jedi. THREE! And all of them were terrible. You’re now going to allow him to create hundreds of new Star Wars characters? Johnson also managed to do something that, before this film, you’d think was impossible. He destroyed the memory of the most beloved movie hero of all time. Mark Hamill tried to warn him. “I fundamentally disagree with everything you’ve done with this character” he famously told Johnson when he read his script. It turns out Hamill was the only one who stood up to Johnson.
Merry Christmas JJ Abrams. "I suppose you must have the whole day. Be here all the earlier next morning."
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Old 12-25-2017, 09:22 PM   #52
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Wow. Thanks for posting -- I don't think I would have read that otherwise (though, I don't know if I would call that a 'rant'). After reading the Scriptshadow analysis, all of the garbage in the Last Jedi now makes sense.

I have long thought Disney was too deferential to JJ Abrams with some of his ideas in the Force Awakens -- and the Scriptshadow analysis provides a very plausible explanation of the Last Jedi as a reaction to a defective product (TFA) by a lesser talent -- with the upshot that the trilogy is now totally f*'d -- and further afield. As I've said elsewhere, it's a red hot mess.

I especially agree with the observation about Rian being 0-3 in new character development. There is a certain George (Phantom Menace phase) Lucas hatred for the source material that can't be denied.
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Old 12-26-2017, 10:31 AM   #53
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Haven't seen it, but it sounds like Luke went out like Kirk in 1994

With all due respect, maybe you should see it, because Luke's merging with the Force (it isn't even entirely clear it's a death, per se, and it's obvious he'll be back in the next one) is nothing at all like Kirk' s death in Generations, which was much cheaper and out of the blue. Luke's was built up to through the entire film and was a cathartic moment that felt very earned. Frankly, I think it was one of the best handled main character deaths I've seen in a movie in a while, and for me it sat way better than Han's death in Force Awakens.

Last edited by Moedred : 01-10-2018 at 11:47 AM. Reason: put away spoiler tags and Xmas decorations
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Old 01-10-2018, 11:42 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by Lambonius
With all due respect, maybe you should see it
I have, despite having known everything going in, and it's great. I thought it would be the work of another rogue director who unlike the others made it past the firing point. The story group is still in charge. Whatever JJ Abrams does next is unknown, but will surely make a satisfying trilogy.

Loved the mirror effect from Black Swan. And the Rashomon inspired flashbacks, used only as necessary. Billie Lourd was in this a lot, and might as well fill the story gap Carrie Fisher left behind.
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Old 01-10-2018, 02:08 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by Moedred
... and might as well fill the story gap Carrie Fisher left behind.

Like she had a choice,
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Old 01-16-2018, 05:53 PM   #56
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Secrets explained by the Lucasfilm Story Group:



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Old 01-17-2018, 02:40 AM   #57
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Good God! Remember how awesome it was when movies were actually designed to tell complete stories on their own and not be launch pads for endless interconnected tie-in merch bull****? Ugh.
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Old 01-17-2018, 04:55 PM   #58
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It falls behind New Hope and Empire as my 3rd favorite and is growing. And yes, I saw the Original in theaters in 77, so I'm outside the targeted audiences.
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Old 01-18-2018, 01:15 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pale Horse
It falls behind New Hope and Empire as my 3rd favorite and is growing. And yes, I saw the Original in theaters in 77, so I'm outside the targeted audiences.
F-me... The Horse has spoken.

I was going to give this one a miss, but now I'm going to have to watch it based on this recommendation alone.
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Old 01-18-2018, 01:22 PM   #60
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F-me... The Horse has spoken.

I was going to give this one a miss, but now I'm going to have to watch it based on this recommendation alone.

I saw it three times, before diving in to it's nuances. Like every art, there is some flaws, but what I did appreciate, is the careful attention to small details easily missed by an audience that wants to be pandered to. It's like a visual representation of Frost's The Road Not Taken.

I get what the Lucasfilm story-team and Rian are doing, and for that, I love it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Brody
I especially agree with the observation about Rian being 0-3 in new character development. There is a certain George (Phantom Menace phase) Lucas hatred for the source material that can't be denied.

Yes, this is the weakest part of this film. And while characters dominated the IV-VI, story arc is the leading reason to re-look at the material as a whole. It's unfortunate that source material isn't more recognizable, but to that end, it's refreshing too.
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Old 01-18-2018, 07:40 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pale Horse
It's like a visual representation of Frost's The Road Not Taken.
Every generation interprets this poem differently, and many overlook that the road "less traveled" is "really about the same." The point is to make a choice. In most every case Rian chose the more dramatic path. Killing characters is a bummer but life is cheap in this galaxy, and "war" is in every title.

It's very busy, but so were the serials which inspired it.
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Old 01-19-2018, 05:08 AM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pale Horse
It falls behind New Hope and Empire as my 3rd favorite and is growing. And yes, I saw the Original in theaters in 77, so I'm outside the targeted audiences.

My interest in Star Wars is more recent - I only saw the prequel trilogy a few years back - but this is where I am right now too. And on a visual level maybe only the original is as compelling.
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Old 01-19-2018, 12:35 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by Attila the Professor
And on a visual level maybe only the original is as compelling.

Are we talking about the impact of the special effects (for the time) or the cinematography itself? If cinematography, I think there's a very strong case to be made that Empire is the best looking of all of the films in terms of pure shot composition, color palette, and lighting. For me, every single shot of Empire seems iconic in a way that is never quite as consistent in any of the other films. A New Hope does have some all time classic shots, but it's also got some more stale sections in it (most of the Death Star interior scenes, save for a handful like the tractor beam deactivation and the light-saber battle.) It think Empire is a lot more consistently gorgeous throughout.
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Old 03-08-2018, 01:51 AM   #64
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Daisy Ridley said:
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“J. J. wrote ‘Episode VII,’ he also wrote drafts for ‘VIII’ & ‘IX.’ Then Rian arrived and re-wrote [‘The Last Jedi’] entirely. I believe there was some sort of general consensus on the main storylines that would happen in the trilogy, but apart from that, we agreed that every director should probably make his movie his own way. Rian and J. J. Abrams met many times to discuss ‘The Last Jedi,’ although ‘Episode VIII’ is very much mostly Rian’s and I do believe Rian didn’t keep anything from the first draft of the ‘Episode VIII’ script.”
So Lucas wrote drafts for 7-9, and Abrams wrote drafts for 8 and 9. Did Rian write a draft for 9 or just flee the building giggling hysterically? It's like a choose your own adventure story. I hope to read all the paths someday.
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Old 04-02-2018, 07:38 PM   #65
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Old 04-03-2018, 11:17 AM   #66
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Gonna be honest, TLJ pretty much killed any passion I have for Star Wars, to t extent that I don't even hate TLJ anymore. It is what it is. Luke is dead, Han is dead, the Rebellion and those original three movies were all for nothing. These new films have a very nihilistic view of the universe. Dead is the fairy tale. I'm quite resigned. These films are certainly of their time. Nothing matters, the past doesn't matter and should be forgotten or rewritten to suit our purposes; old heroes are new villains.
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Old 04-03-2018, 12:07 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiders112390
Luke is dead, Han is dead, the Rebellion and those original three movies were all for nothing. These new films have a very nihilistic view of the universe. Dead is the fairy tale.

Oh ye of little faith. It was a dark 48 hours between the Cross and The Tomb. There are no true believers.

But I still believe in the prophecy. Yoda came back in TLJ. He was dead. Obi Wan came back in ESB and ROJ. He was dead too.
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Old 04-03-2018, 05:57 PM   #68
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Maybe someone like Sean Connery in Name of the Rose swooped in and saved the sacred Jedi texts. If I had and Photoshop skills I'd put these images together.
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Old 04-04-2018, 09:18 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by Moedred
Maybe someone like Sean Connery in Name of the Rose swooped in and saved the sacred Jedi texts. If I had and Photoshop skills I'd put these images together.
Rey saved the texts, we see them in a compartment of the Falcon in the final scene.
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Old 04-04-2018, 11:28 AM   #70
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Rey saved the texts, we see them in a compartment of the Falcon in the final scene.

Yep. Resurrected Yoda even knew that:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoda
“Wisdom they held, but that library contained nothing that the girl Rey does not already possess.”

So all he did was light a bonfire.
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Old 04-05-2018, 02:31 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by Pale Horse
Oh ye of little faith. It was a dark 48 hours between the Cross and The Tomb. There are no true believers.

But I still believe in the prophecy. Yoda came back in TLJ. He was dead. Obi Wan came back in ESB and ROJ. He was dead too.

I don't believe in Rian Johnson's nihilistic view that you must kill the past. I simply do not agree with the ideology of these films, nor do I like the characters.
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Old 04-05-2018, 02:52 PM   #72
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I don't believe in Rian Johnson's nihilistic view that you must kill the past. I simply do not agree with the ideology of these films, nor do I like the characters.


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Old 04-05-2018, 03:38 PM   #73
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Pretty good. I still have the original three films and in my head-canon the series ended happily on Endor. Han wasn't a deadbeat dad whose redemption arc meant nothing, Luke wasn't a coward whose character arc inverted itself, Leia wasn't a bad mother who put her work above her son, and their sacrifices weren't all in vain. It's a happier world that way.
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Old 04-05-2018, 05:45 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by Raiders112390
I don't believe in Rian Johnson's nihilistic view that you must kill the past. I simply do not agree with the ideology of these films, nor do I like the characters.

Depiction's not endorsement. The film decidedly doesn't endorse Kylo Ren's "Let the past die. Kill it if you have to" message. On a superficial level, ok: Luke's dead, sure. And Ackbar. But those Jedi texts remain, and the film ends on an extremely hopeful note suggestive of a future unity of both the Rebels and the force-sensitive. Will Rey revive the Jedi? Seems like a good chance of that, sure,even if under a different name, but if she does, it will be a form of the Jedi that avoids those excesses and missteps of the Jedi past that Luke alludes to. Plus, obviously, Luke's self-sacrifice from afar was a way of denying a victory to Kylo (maybe also of avoiding putting a little more on Ben Solo's conscience, since "no one is ever truly gone."

Rose's "That's how we're gonna win: not by fighting what we hate, but saving what we love" seems much more central to the film's themes than that key line of Kylo's. Finn's journey in the film is largely about growing to commit to something rather than looking for a way out; Poe's is about learning that leadership is about preservation rather than hotshot destruction. Rey? Well, maybe she learns that not everything or everyone can be saved? Though I doubt we've seen the last of her connection - whatever it is - with Kylo.
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Old 04-05-2018, 06:03 PM   #75
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Depiction's not endorsement. The film decidedly doesn't endorse Kylo Ren's "Let the past die. Kill it if you have to" message. On a superficial level, ok: Luke's dead, sure. And Ackbar. But those Jedi texts remain, and the film ends on an extremely hopeful note suggestive of a future unity of both the Rebels and the force-sensitive. Will Rey revive the Jedi? Seems like a good chance of that, sure,even if under a different name, but if she does, it will be a form of the Jedi that avoids those excesses and missteps of the Jedi past that Luke alludes to. Plus, obviously, Luke's self-sacrifice from afar was a way of denying a victory to Kylo (maybe also of avoiding putting a little more on Ben Solo's conscience, since "no one is ever truly gone."

Honestly, it's just not a direction I personally agree with. And yes, I do believe Johnson's ideology in the film is to let the past die, kill it if you have to; I believe Johnson is speaking through Kylo there. You can say superificially it seems so, but I think on a deeper level the film espouses that as well. Luke was a symbol of the past, and beyond dead, he's a failure. Leia is a symbol of the past and its her and her friend's schemes that get most of the remaining rebellion wiped out. Luke's sacrifice, if you wish to call it that, was more a "redemption equals death" thing for me than a noble sacrifice. Why not go there in person, end it all, finish what he started?

These are interesting science fantasy films; I'll grant them that. But for me they strayed from what I feel was the heart of Star Wars, and that is the fairy tale. The prequels strayed from it too, albeit in different ways. The central ideology present in the original films is far different from the one presented here.

There were better ways of going about it all in my opinion, but I'm one of those who never wanted to see Luke and Co. again on the big screen. The ending of Jedi for me is one of those classic Hollywood endings, like Indy riding off into the sunset. Some things should be allowed to rest.

Quote:
Rose's "That's how we're gonna win: not by fighting what we hate, but saving what we love" seems much more central to the film's themes than that key line of Kylo's. Finn's journey in the film is largely about growing to commit to something rather than looking for a way out; Poe's is about learning that leadership is about preservation rather than hotshot destruction. Rey? Well, maybe she learns that not everything or everyone can be saved? Though I doubt we've seen the last of her connection - whatever it is - with Kylo.

That whole quote and the message behind it doesn't make sense. It certainly doesn't win wars, either.

These films are for cultural theorists, and those who believe in modern critical theory. They're not for fans of Star Wars.
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