Why does everyone hate Temple Of Doom?

DeepSixFix said:

This thread is "Why does everyone hate TOD?"

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Yes, thanks...

DeepSixFix said:

It's normal to chime in and say I don't hate it.

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What's NOT normal is to post "Bashing TOD is just trolling" in the "Why does everyone hate TOD?" thread. That is unless you want to turn the heat up on the discussion/debate.

DeepSixFix said:

I love it. Loved it in the theaters and love it now. Sad that you don't.

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Why should it be sad that I did not LOVE Temple of Doom. It's because Lucas didn't like the adventure movies of the time that Indy was made in the first place. I freely admit there are many praise worthy aspects of the film. I don't HATE it. I'm happy that you're satisfied with the lackluster followup to Raiders. Glory be and praise to you baby! But the fact remains, it's not a night out enjoying great meal...it's reheated leftovers. Literally AND figuratively.

(Some food for thought Montana )

DeepSixFix said:

Not sure what adventure movie you could possibly like, but no need to jump on me for enjoying a great adventure film.

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Hey, you draw the troll line in the sand and this is what you get...(maybe someone can let him know I'm actually being nice).

Rocket Surgeon said:

But the fact remains, it's not a night out enjoying great meal...it's reheated leftovers. Literally AND figuratively.

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No, only in your opinion. Back when I saw the movie in the theater everyone I knew loved it. Even today it's got an 85% rating on Rotten Tomatoes.

Rocket Surgeon said:

...(maybe someone can let him know I'm actually being nice).

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Why wouldn't you be? I'm sure you are a nice person.

Maybe one reason hatred for Temple of Doom lingers is pure human ego. When it came out, everyone loved it. Then when Last Crusade came out, many backpeddled, comparing Temple (unfairly) to Raiders and Crusade, so it seemed an oddball out. But as the years have progressed, and we've seen a lot of crappy Indy-wannabe movies, people realized Temple wasn't bad after all. Some have relented. But some, I feel, simply don't want to admit they were wrong. Though they'll see it as part of a triple-feature and enjoy it, they'll still hold onto the "it's no Crusade" mentality. Kinda sad.

Here's a good way to look at it: Sure, Temple, nor Crusade or Kingdom are no Raiders, but what could be? Ask yourself this: How is Temple compared to, say The Mummy Returns or National Treasure? Or King Solomon's Mines (with Richard Chamberlain)? I mean, Temple may not be Raiders, but it's still one helluva good movie!

Rocket Surgeon said:

But the fact remains, it's not a night out enjoying great meal...it's reheated leftovers. Literally AND figuratively.

(Some food for thought Montana )

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Any Indy movie following Raiders was bound to be "reheated". Lucas & co. created a winning recipe in 1981; but a chef seeks to create something new with the same ingredients. Adding too much spice can ruin the flavour for some. You just have delicate tastebuds, Rocket!

DeepSixFix said:

I saw it in the theater as a kid, too, and loved it. Sorry you don't have that great memory.

TOD is great because it's the opposite of Raiders. The unexpected song and dance intro with the Bogart homage and Jones bargaining with a gangster. He's actually trading human remains for a diamond! It reveals his dark grave robbing side. Then the whole poison back and forth sequence with Jones skewering the bad guy with a flaming shishkabob, how can you not like that?

Willy worked because she was the exact opposite of Marion and an homage to the classic Hollywood damsel in distress. And the impossible surviving-the-plane-crash sequence gets an eerie explanation as it's revealed "the gods" brought Jones, Willy and Short Round there. So of course they survived. The slave children are the perfect catalyst to keep Dr. Jones there.

Then the dual fight scene between Jones and the Thuggee mirrored by Short Round fighting the kid Maharaja is classic! Bashing TOD is just trolling. That movie represents everything you get into adventure movies for in the first place.

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I'm sorry, are you suggesting that I'm 'bashing' TOD and by doing so I'm 'trolling'? I think TOD is the weakest of the bunch for the reasons mentioned. Is that not reasonable???

indyswk said:

Actually, I felt that for KOTCS, but not ToD.

In my opinion ToD used scenes and details that were supposed to be part of Raiders, but due to time constraint they couldn't include it, so they made another movie based on the scenes they couldn't use. It was probably planned all along that if Raiders did well they'd make a sequel with all the extra leftover scenes and stunts (plane raft drop and the using the gong to sheild from machine gun in ToD)

The Last Crusade also had a good story, so much that I personally couldn't tell they were 'trying' to milk the series, just that they had a good thing rolling and it just clicked and worked.

KOTCS was made 'for the fans'. Speilberg even said he shot the riding into sunset sceen at the end of TLC because he thought the series had ended. I sense that they just said, hey let's make another one, and we'll come up with new crazy stuff with it and see where we go. Ultimately I enjoyed Indy adventure again, but feeling a bit let down by it and can catch some unpolished things with it. A lot of it have to do with anticlimatic scenes that let me down right after a great scene, so much that I remember only the poorer scenes but not the good ones.

Anyway, I rank ToD lower because the other two from the triology is so good, but I certainly enjoyed ToD.

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KOTCS has its problems for sure, but I don't think it's for the want of trying. I think the story is very solid, and there is at least a real attempt to progress the character (even if the end result doesn't quite pay off). TOD is pretty paper thin all around... but it does have Harrison Ford in his prime and Spielberg who was on top of his game (there or there abouts).

I loved it as a kid, probably my favorite out of them all.

That's probably because it's a series of one set-piece action scene after another. Now I see it as the most pop-corn-worthy of them all, light on content (but rather dark at the same time) but still a fun addition.

I always thought it was a really good depiction of Jones as a man constantly fighting both good and bad luck just trying to survive. Every moment in this movie has him getting deeper into trouble until the very end.

DeepSixFix said:

No, only in your opinion.

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Must I?

Shanghai: microwaved pu pu platter
Inflatable raft parachutte: half a grilled cheese panini
Mine carts: Cold Fried chicken

Say what you want, but they're leftovers...Raiders remainders. Hey some people like refried beans.

DeepSixFix said:

Back when I saw the movie in the theater everyone I knew loved it.

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Back when I saw it everyone I knew thought it was a bubble gum movie. Tasted good for the first 15 minutes and then lost all it's flavor.

DeepSixFix said:

Even today it's got an 85% rating on Rotten Tomatoes.

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Rotten Tomatoes rates these films in Action and Adventure higher than Doom. The Bold one are rated higher than Raiders. Keep your Rotten Tomatoes, it indicates NOTHING.

Sesame Street Presents - Follow that Bird
Face/Off
Catch Me If You Can
Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon
Babe
Who Framed Roger Rabbit
Batman: Under the Red Hood

DeepSixFix said:

Why wouldn't you be? I'm sure you are a nice person.

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Thanks, but that little section you omitted would be why:

Hey, you draw the troll line in the sand and this is what you get...

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Rocket Surgeon said:

Must I?

Shanghai: microwaved pu pu platter
Inflatable raft parachutte: half a grilled cheese panini
Mine carts: Cold Fried chicken

Say what you want, but they're leftovers...Raiders remainders. Hey some people like refried beans.

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You only know they are "leftovers" since you've read about the origin of Raiders on the internet over the past few years. Back in 1984 you didn't know that. The Raiders script had lots of stuff that couldn't be put in the final film for various reasons. Doesn't mean the scenes were cut because they weren't good. TOD is my second favorite next to Raiders.

DeepSixFix said:

You only know they are "leftovers" since you've read about the origin of Raiders on the internet over the past few years. Back in 1984 you didn't know that. The Raiders script had lots of stuff that couldn't be put in the final film for various reasons. Doesn't mean the scenes were cut because they weren't good. TOD is my second favorite next to Raiders.

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This is true, and excepting the raft, they're the best parts of the Doom.

Rocket Surgeon said:

Must I?

Shanghai: microwaved pu pu platter
Inflatable raft parachutte: half a grilled cheese panini
Mine carts: Cold Fried chicken

Say what you want, but they're leftovers...Raiders remainders. Hey some people like refried beans.

Back when I saw it everyone I knew thought it was a bubble gum movie. Tasted good for the first 15 minutes and then lost all it's flavor.Rotten Tomatoes rates these films in Action and Adventure higher than Doom. The Bold one are rated higher than Raiders. Keep your Rotten Tomatoes, it indicates NOTHING.

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Like I said, you have delicate tastebuds, Rocket! However, a trip to Farmer Maggot's magic mushroom patch may improve your enjoyment of TOD and KOTCS. Apparently they make everything appear more realistic!

I think I should mention that I love the opening of Temple more than I do the opening of all other Indy movies. Even morethan the Chapapoyan temple scene, wich is just classic Indy, the Club Obi Wan scenes just have everything. Comedy, action, adventure and a Cole Porter song!

To that the efforts of River Phoenix, who sadly passed away too soon, and the non-opening that KOTCS had pale in comparison.

But I have to admit though, that after that first exhillerating blast, Temple does tether out a bit...

Joosse said:

I think I should mention that I love the opening of Temple more than I do the opening of all other Indy movies. Even morethan the Chapapoyan temple scene, wich is just classic Indy, the Club Obi Wan scenes just have everything. Comedy, action, adventure and a Cole Porter song!

To that the efforts of River Phoenix, who sadly passed away too soon, and the non-opening that KOTCS had pale in comparison.

But I have to admit though, that after that first exhillerating blast, Temple does tether out a bit...

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I'd have liked to have seen more of Indy's adventures in Shanghai, for sure. Maybe if Lucas gets around to permitting an animated Indy series...

Spielberg: "Personally I don't love the movie. There is some work I'm proud of; the roller-coaster mine car chase, and the sequence where Indy's trapped with Short Round as the ceiling spikes grind down towards them - but the parts on that one don't add up to a satisfying whole for me."

Rocket Surgeon said:

Spielberg: "Personally I don't love the movie. There is some work I'm proud of; the roller-coaster mine car chase, and the sequence where Indy's trapped with Short Round as the ceiling spikes grind down towards them - but the parts on that one don't add up to a satisfying whole for me."

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Both Spielberg and Lucas cited their personal circumstances as reasons why TOD didn't turn out as the Indy movie they'd hoped for.

On the flip side, I think that their distracted thoughts gave us an interesting movie. The downside, though, was that it set a precedent for the two movies that followed: the intensification of the cartoon aspect.

I think you just have to give in and go with the flow. Accept that this was what Indy was destined to be. If you look at ROTLA, it's not without its great cartoon elements. The rolling boulder was one of them - it was an absurd and unlikely idea, but it's become a classic image associated with Indy.

Montana Smith said:

Both Spielberg and Lucas cited their personal circumstances as reasons why TOD didn't turn out as the Indy movie they'd hoped for.

On the flip side, I think that their distracted thoughts gave us an interesting movie. The downside, though, was that it set a precedent for the two movies that followed: the intensification of the cartoon aspect.

I think you just have to give in and go with the flow. Accept that this was what Indy was destined to be. If you look at ROTLA, it's not without its great cartoon elements. The rolling boulder was one of them - it was an absurd and unlikely idea, but it's become a classic image associated with Indy.

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Agreed, but you don't hear any of the people who made Raiders profess anything but love for it...

I think what Spielberg says sums it up though:

Spielberg: "Personally I don't love the movie."

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People will enoy films for all sorts of reasons, hey - I love the movie Babe...but the quote is fitting a thread so titled.

Rocket Surgeon said:

Agreed, but you don't hear any of the people who made Raiders profess anything but love for it...

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No. If ROTLA had been just an 'okay' film, it probably wouldn't have generated a further three, plus the TV series and everthying else. ROTLA had to have been special, or else the great rolling boulder that is the Indy franchise would have become lodged early on, and not continued to roll.

Rocket Surgeon said:

I think what Spielberg says sums it up though:

People will enoy films for all sorts of reasons, hey - I love the movie Babe...but the quote is fitting a thread so titled.

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He didn't "love" it. Neither did he "hate" it. He seems to regard it in the same way I regard KOTCS: a mixture of some great elements and some poor ones. Both Lucas and Spielberg had bad memories from the time of making TOD (both going through divorce?). As a director Spielberg is a visual artist. Artists strive for perfection, and some feel they never achieve it throughout their entire life. Whereas others will see the greatness that the artist cannot see.

That TOD was a strange and 'unloved' film fuels the nostaliga and fascination I have for it. It was striking and different, and who knows what would have happened to Indy if Spielberg and Lucas had made the film they wanted? (That's just rhetorical - it's impossible to know if Indy would be around today if Indy II had been Raiders II, rather than something so different).

When it came out everyone loved it...

"The film received mixed reviews upon its release..." John Baxter (1999). "Snake Surprise". Mythmaker: The Life and Work of George Lucas. Avon Books. pp. 332–341.

Miami Herald - May 31, 1984

Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom is violent, grotesque, repulsive, cynical, visually bullying and sexist. Perhaps you've gathered that I didn't care for the latest Steven Spielberg-George Lucas monster -- and I mean "monster"as in a malformed horror, not "monster"as in blockbuster.

Boston Globe May 23, 1984

What's mostly missing from "Indiana Jones" is a sense of playfulness, of cockeyed verve. It so happens that the film's three main characters - [HARRISON FORD]'s Indiana Jones, [KATE CAPSHAW]'s Willie and Ke Huy Quan's cute sidekick named Short Round - are named after dogs owned by [GEORGE LUCAS], [STEVEN SPIELBERG], and [GLORIA KATZ], who wrote the screenplay with her husband, [WILLARD HUYCK]. It's precisely this kind of off-the-wall insouciance that the screenplay lacks. The action seems driven; it doesn't even take the time to make the characters engaging.

LA Times May 23, 1984

"I don't care if this film makes $100 million. Since when does big box office equate with Intelligence, quality, culture or even a smidgen of social conscience?

Chicago Reader and the Chicago Tribune

The film betrays no human impulse higher than that of a ten-year-old boy trying to gross out his baby sister by dangling a dead worm in her face

People Magazine

"Even Harrison Ford is required to slap Quan... There are no heroes connected with the film, only two villains; their names are Steven Spielberg and George Lucas."

Montana Smith said:

He didn't "love" it. Neither did he "hate" it.

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I've NEVER heard or read Spielberg saying he hated ANYTHING he made. Even when he was so moved to replace the guns in ET he said he "regretted" them.

Montana Smith said:

No.

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No what?

Rocket Surgeon said:

"The film received mixed reviews upon its release..." John Baxter (1999). "Snake Surprise". Mythmaker: The Life and Work of George Lucas. Avon Books. pp. 332?341.

Miami Herald - May 31, 1984

Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom is violent, grotesque, repulsive, cynical, visually bullying and sexist. Perhaps you've gathered that I didn't care for the latest Steven Spielberg-George Lucas monster -- and I mean "monster"as in a malformed horror, not "monster"as in blockbuster.

Boston Globe May 23, 1984

What's mostly missing from "Indiana Jones" is a sense of playfulness, of cockeyed verve. It so happens that the film's three main characters - [HARRISON FORD]'s Indiana Jones, [KATE CAPSHAW]'s Willie and Ke Huy Quan's cute sidekick named Short Round - are named after dogs owned by [GEORGE LUCAS], [STEVEN SPIELBERG], and [GLORIA KATZ], who wrote the screenplay with her husband, [WILLARD HUYCK]. It's precisely this kind of off-the-wall insouciance that the screenplay lacks. The action seems driven; it doesn't even take the time to make the characters engaging.

LA Times May 23, 1984

"I don't care if this film makes $100 million. Since when does big box office equate with Intelligence, quality, culture or even a smidgen of social conscience?

Chicago Reader and the Chicago Tribune

The film betrays no human impulse higher than that of a ten-year-old boy trying to gross out his baby sister by dangling a dead worm in her face

People Magazine

"Even Harrison Ford is required to slap Quan... There are no heroes connected with the film, only two villains; their names are Steven Spielberg and George Lucas."

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It was certainly controversial. It wasn't what a lot of reviewers expected to see. I liked the fim for many of the reasons the reviewers above disliked it. I remember the controversy, and as a kid that made it even more 'cool' - and that's where nostalgia plays a big factor.

Rocket Surgeon said:

I've NEVER heard or read Spielberg saying he hated ANYTHING he made. Even when he was so moved to replace the guns in ET he said he "regretted" them.

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That's true. The title of this thread is, "Why does everyone hate Temple of Doom?" It's one of those absolute statements that tries to speak for everyone. It's like saying "why is KOTCS the most hated movie of all time?" Which is like media-speak, where the media attempts to make peoples' minds up for them, and a certain sector of the population will go along with it, without really knowing why.

Rocket Surgeon said:

No what?

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No... "you don't hear any of the people who made Raiders profess anything but love for it..." (It was a negative positively agreeing with your statement!)

Montana Smith said:

It's one of those absolute statements that tries to speak for everyone.

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Exactly why I gave the post the title: "When it came out everyone loved it..."

Montana Smith said:

It was a negative positively agreeing with your statement!

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I thought so, but figured, why not be sure...

Montana Smith said:

I remember the controversy, and as a kid that made it even more 'cool' - and that's where nostalgia plays a big factor.

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No doubt, taboos stoke curiosity...

Once again, all reasons why people, (from the gulf stream waters to the redwood forest), hated Doom, or disliked, or ah didn't love, um...

Montana Smith said:

He (Spielberg) didn't "love" it. Neither did he "hate" it. He seems to regard it in the same way I regard KOTCS: a mixture of some great elements and some poor ones. Both Lucas and Spielberg had bad memories from the time of making TOD (both going through divorce?). As a director Spielberg is a visual artist. Artists strive for perfection, and some feel they never achieve it throughout their entire life. Whereas others will see the greatness that the artist cannot see.

That TOD was a strange and 'unloved' film fuels the nostaliga and fascination I have for it. It was striking and different, and who knows what would have happened to Indy if Spielberg and Lucas had made the film they wanted? (That's just rhetorical - it's impossible to know if Indy would be around today if Indy II had been Raiders II, rather than something so different).

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Well said.

It makes one wonder, however, why Spielberg says anything bad about Temple Of Doom when he doesn't seem to speak ill of other films of his which are arguably true dogs (such as War of the Worlds and Lost World). Compared to those films, Temple of Doom is a masterpiece. Yet Spielberg talks down Temple. Is that because he cares more for Indy and thus sets a higher standard for himself when making these pictures? Is he still uncomfortable with Temple's subject matter?

I think Spielberg's often misquoted in regards to Temple. He may not love it, but he's not in any way saying it's a bad movie, either. I think some rabid fans use his unlove for Temple to make it look like Temple is somehow a bad movie, thus fueling the myth of "hatred" for this picture.

Also, one must ask: Do Lucas and Ford dislike Temple Of Doom? I've never heard them say or even imply anything like that. Lucas has said the dark aspect of the film was due in part to his divorce at the time, but that's it.