The Haters thread

Darth Vile

New member
Montana Smith said:
Twenty years ago KOTCS would have had a relevant place in Indy movie lore. Harrison would have been young enough not to need a mini-Indy to challenge him.
But we got that with Shortround in TOD. I think the reality is that Mutt (and Shia as an actor) serves to (indirectly) highlight Ford's old age and his relegation in 'leading actor' status. That reality makes us (Indy fans) all uncomfortable I think. Whereas in TOD, Ford was in his prime... he was 'the man'.

Montana Smith said:
I don't think analogue over digital would have any effect. CGI replaces matte paintings. Harrison would still have had stunt doubles with hidden faces. While CGI makes more things possible, the fridge and the waterfalls might not have looked so nice 20 years ago.
It depends on how troubled one is by the CGI. I don't think the CGI monkeys, gophers and vine swings serve the movie well. Made 20 years ago they probably would have just exorcised those scenes/shots for something that could be achieved 'in camera'.


Montana Smith said:
The voting on IMDB would suggest that even a Nick Cage copy beat a genuine Harrison Ford version.

NT 6.8/10 - 116,766 votes

KOTCS 6.4/10 - 173,106 votes


Not scientific, but it's a poll of sorts.
It's not that it isn't scientific, it's more to do with the actual people who are being sampled. I'd personally put little credence in the collective views of their readership.
 

Montana Smith

Active member
mikieson said:
First of all..I NEVER EVER listen to others score on anything..movies,videogames,music,nothing..Because I find that 9/10 I like what score worse OR what isnt as popular. WHich proves correct when comparing how I feel about KOTCS to what others think.(y)

AND sure NT seems to beat KOTCS there..BUT is a 6.8 anything to brag about? I mean it it scored like 8 then ok..lol..I still fail to see ANYTHING wrong with KOTCS that would make even the hardest of hardcore fans not like it..AND im sitting here in my Akubra Fed IV "kotcs bash" typing this..:D

Sure HF isnt quite as witty and fast as he once was. YES the Mutt jungle swing was crazy..BUT so what?..other than that it was spot on. Trying to reintroduce characters you havent seen in 20 years isnt easy. BUT I feel they did pretty good with it.

Lots of people hate Mutt or hate Shia in general. I think the acting was good,the character was great for the movie. and I feel they all connected quite well for being YEARS later..Could some things be better? Maybe, but that goes for every movie ive ever seen..

I'm glad you were satisfied. George will be counting on your support again sometime during the next ten years or so. ;)

Darth Vile said:
But we got that with Shortround in TOD. I think the reality is that Mutt (and Shia as an actor) serves to (indirectly) highlight Ford's old age and his relegation in 'leading actor' status. That reality makes us (Indy fans) all uncomfortable I think. Whereas in TOD, Ford was in his prime... he was 'the man'.

Short Round and Mutt were the weakest central issues in both movies. Even in his prime Indy was subjugated, while Shorty was the one who began the slave revolt and set about the rescue of his assumed father.

At least Short Round didn't have as serious a hope of replacing Indy as Mutt. Yet, I doubt Lucas ever seriously thought about using Mutt as a future replacement - especially since he chose in Shia an actor of very limited ability or charisma.

Darth Vile said:
It depends on how troubled one is by the CGI. I don't think the CGI monkeys, gophers and vine swings serve the movie well. Made 20 years ago they probably would have just exorcised those scenes/shots for something that could be achieved 'in camera'.

CGI doesn't trouble me as long as it stands in for something unachievable any other way, or is so unobtrusive that it doesn't become an issue. I understand the danger of having it on tap, since it can make all things possible. A wild imagination needs to be held in check if it has access to CGI.

Darth Vile said:
It's not that it isn't scientific, it's more to do with the actual people who are being sampled. I'd personally put little credence in the collective views of their readership.

I don't put any real credit in such polls. The low count for KOTCS was undoubtedly dragged down by many who thought it cool to enter the lowest possible figure.

Though I'd also suspect that the anti-Cage mob would be doing something similar to NT!

And consider that The Big Lebowski gets 8.2/10, and I positively hate that film!
 

mikieson

New member
Montana Smith said:
I'm glad you were satisfied. George will be counting on your support again sometime during the next ten years or so. ;)
im looking forward to it and I hope its sometime this year or in 2013 with the new INDY film..thanks.(y)
 

Raiders90

Well-known member
Does anyone else teeter from hating KOTCS as the "final" Indy film, and loving it as a mindless, fun adventure starring Dr. Jones? I have a lot of conflict over it. I flip flop a lot and I love it for a lot of reasons but hate it for a lot. I consider it canon and I'm happy to see that Indy's career extended all the way into the '50s and I just enjoy it for what it is...But as his last outing it disappoints...That's the sticking point. If it was just one of many entries, it'd be utterly fine. But we only got 4 Indiana Jones films, we should've gotten more throughout the 90s and 00s.
 

Indy's brother

New member
Yeah, it's a bittersweet movie in those regards. I too have a love/hate relationship with KOTCS for all the reasons you mentioned in your above post (along with your others in this thread). The alien aspect doesn't bother me a bit, since I see that as no less ridiculous as any of the other religious artifacts, being unbound by faith-oriented prejudices. I have to say Raiders112390, I'm a bit surprised by how closely my views on Mutt and KOTCS seem to be in line with your own. Have I just been completely ignoring your posts due to my complete disinterest in the fan-boy squabbles that your threads inevitably seem to attract? Highly probable. For that, I guess I should apologize. Not sure I will. But I suppose I should. Maybe. I dunno.

EDIT: actually, I thought I was responding to this thread. Aw jeez did I just kick the hornet's nest with that foul up....
 

Montana Smith

Active member
Indy's brother said:
I have to say Raiders112390, I'm a bit surprised by how closely my views on Mutt and KOTCS seem to be in line with your own. Have I just been completely ignoring your posts due to my complete disinterest in the fan-boy squabbles that your threads inevitably seem to attract? Highly probable.

I, too, find myself on the wrong side of the fence in a strange garden.
 

The_Raiders

Well-known member
I'm thinking about changing sides. As this much time has passed looking back on KOTCS I see mistakes and feelings that I had covered up. I defended the film for a while. Mostly I think because it was an "Indy" film that came out in my generation. I finally got to see Indy on the big screen and defended it. And I felt disappointed coming out of the theater.
There are aspects of the film that I do like. I like all of the warehouse scenes. But after that, the film pretty much went downhill. It's a sham really. A sham for money. Or just Lucas getting his kicks throwing aliens into an Indy film. I feel it would have been better if the film was never even made. I wouldn't say it sucked at all. But I find it harder and harder to accept it. Especially when compared to the others.
 

Darth Vile

New member
The_Raiders said:
I'm thinking about changing sides. As this much time has passed looking back on KOTCS I see mistakes and feelings that I had covered up. I defended the film for a while. Mostly I think because it was an "Indy" film that came out in my generation. I finally got to see Indy on the big screen and defended it. And I felt disappointed coming out of the theater.
There are aspects of the film that I do like. I like all of the warehouse scenes. But after that, the film pretty much went downhill. It's a sham really. A sham for money. Or just Lucas getting his kicks throwing aliens into an Indy film. I feel it would have been better if the film was never even made. I wouldn't say it sucked at all. But I find it harder and harder to accept it. Especially when compared to the others.

This shouldn't be about changing or picking a side. I don't see it as a competition. If you like it, great... if you don't, then that's cool too. I'd only ever look to defend something if I thought the charges were unjust and/or unwarranted (regardless of me personal views)... and even then I wouldn't see it as a defence, rather it's about questioning the charges. :)
 
Darth Vile said:
This shouldn't be about changing or picking a side.

Though being able to recognize value in an opposing view is a good quality to nurture.

If the scales are tipping in the opposite direction, it would be worth posting more of your reasons and what sparks reconsidering your position. Details, details, details.
 

Darth Vile

New member
Rocket Surgeon said:
Though being able to recognize value in an opposing view is a good quality to nurture.
Yes - exactly my point. Nothing is ever as black and white as hating or loving it.

Rocket Surgeon said:
If the scales are tipping in the opposite direction, it would be worth posting more of your reasons and what sparks reconsidering your position. Details, details, details.
But we've done that to death haven't we? I don't have an issue with the movie being ripped apart in a 'haters thread'... that's the purpose of said thread, and I'm more than happy to dip in and dip out. My only concern is that the Lucas and KOTCS hate doesn't seem limited to a specific topic.
 
Darth Vile said:
Yes - exactly my point. Nothing is ever as black and white as hating or loving it.
Well, there IS Willie...

Darth Vile said:
But we've done that to death haven't we?
Good God man! How can you resist the exit interview, (or entrance depending on your side of the wall) of a defector?!

In which case Tana already got his confession, or part of it in one of the other threads...speaking of:

Indy's brother said:
EDIT: actually, I thought I was responding to this thread. Aw jeez did I just kick the hornet's nest with that foul up....

HA! Funny, welcome to the conspiracy.
 

Raiders90

Well-known member
Udvarnoky said:
I don't see what's so revealing about that quote. The movie wasn't exactly agnostic of its predecessors.

It's just coming from his angle, it's kind of disrespectful of the franchise to go into writing it pretending the others didn't happen. I can understand if KOTCS was meant as a standalone entry, one of many (IE, James Bond), but it was intended as the wrap up to the franchise. Also, there are points in the film where Indy will say something that doesn't sound like something Indy would say...I just feel Koepp isn't the best screenwriter unless he's aided by an even stronger writer.
 

Udvarnoky

Well-known member
Raiders112390 said:
It's just coming from his angle, it's kind of disrespectful of the franchise to go into writing it pretending the others didn't happen. I can understand if KOTCS was meant as a standalone entry, one of many (IE, James Bond), but it was intended as the wrap up to the franchise. Also, there are points in the film where Indy will say something that doesn't sound like something Indy would say...I just feel Koepp isn't the best screenwriter unless he's aided by an even stronger writer.

I agree with the bolded part only. It is debatable whether or not the Beards (who are the ones who would dictate that aspect, surely) intended for this to wrap up the franchise. Koepp's point, which is a valid one, is that the movie needs to work on its own and not rely on what came before. I'm not sure he was such a success in that regard, but there's nothing offensive about the statement itself.
 

AlivePoet

New member
You know, as I've frequented these forums for the past several years since KOTCS, I've found it interesting to observe subtle changes in a fair number of Raveners' opinions on the film's merits. Many have gone from considering this movie "good," to "good enough," to "decent," to "not good enough." This hardly happened overnight, and I can think of quite a few users have constantly given their opinions on the film over time. All of them, I believe, have come to appreciate the film less.

Personally, I think it's not difficult to see why. Poorly scripted / executed elements that seemed forgivable while watching this generation's Indy film at the cinema are not easy to ignore now. The film is what it is, and that's (by general consensus, though this thread would say otherwise) a sub-par Indy outing that, while bringing the character back, managed to get enough wrong that it can't be considered on level with the trilogy.

Now that we can watch it at home, there's not much incentive to do so vs the trilogy. Would you rather watch: Indy driving the desert truck, or Indy Jr. swinging on vines? ROTLA Marion or KOTCS Marion? Young Indy or old Indy? Mac or Sallah? Nuked fridge or airplane raft? Some of these might be personal taste, but the majority of viewers would rather watch high quality filmmaking than merely passable entertainment...I assume.
 

Stoo

Well-known member
AlivePoet said:
This hardly happened overnight, and I can think of quite a few users have constantly given their opinions on the film over time. All of them, I believe, have come to appreciate the film less.
While this is true, in my case, it's the opposite. It took a long time before I started offering any opinions here because of my indifference towards the film. There are certain parts I still truly despise but, overall, I enjoy it much more now than I did in 2008.
AlivePoet said:
Now that we can watch it at home, there's not much incentive to do so vs the trilogy.
For me, it's the one to watch because "Skull" is new Indy. I've watched the other ones & the TV series so many times that it's refreshing to see something "new". (That said, I usually only watch the scenes that I like and skip over the rest.)

Nice to see that you're still alive, AlivePoet, mon ami!:hat:
 

AlivePoet

New member
Stoo said:
While this is true, in my case, it's the opposite. It took a long time before I started offering any opinions here because of my indifference towards the film. There are certain parts I still truly despise but, overall, I enjoy it much more now than I did in 2008.

Interesting, Stoo...didn't gather that from your posts. Or maybe I thought you were playing devil's advocate while defending it. I'm curious, which parts do you truly despise (or enjoy, for that matter)?

Stoo said:
For me, it's the one to watch because "Skull" is new Indy. I've watched the other ones & the TV series so many times that it's refreshing to see something "new". (That said, I usually only watch the scenes that I like and skip over the rest.)

True, we could watch the others to death before the fourth came out...I can replay each of them in my mind without visual support from the films, as most of us can, I assume.

Stoo said:
Nice to see that you're still alive, AlivePoet, mon ami!:hat:

Oui! Haven't been posting much lately but I've been around. Mostly observing the amount of hate that people have been shelling out at KOTCS lately. Y'know, the classy conversations. :cool:
 
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