Masks of Evil (Transylvania)

Stoo

Well-known member
Junior Jones said:
This is true in the US, but there were bookends that aired in Europe. It was broadcast there as two episodes. You can find the bookends in Chapter 7 of the Old Indy Chronicles on StooTV.
Also in Canada, "Scandal" was shown as a 2 hr. film WITH both sets of bookends (using slightly different edits). But that's a whole other topic...The "Transylvania" bookends are Part 12.
Junior Jones said:
Phil Anderson
(I'm going to try to remember to start signing my posts so as not to be confused with the other JuniorJones with no space.)
Now that JuniorJones (w/o the space) has an avatar it may be easier for people. I knew the difference, anyway.;)

Re: Your explanation about my aim with the Old Indy stuff, yes, you're exactly correct except that there are *3* more left to go. Since there's a lot of new people here, check out this thread if you're interested: The Old Indiana Jones Chronicles
Joosse said:
Was this one directed by Dutch director Dick Maas?:confused:
Yes!

@Laird: On the latest IndyCast you mentioned that you thought "Transylvania" was one of the weaker episodes which surprised me. I love it.

In the late '90s, I made a trade for the 4 Euro episodes on VHS taped from the Austrian channel, ORF1. Instead of dates at the beginnings, they have titles. This episode was called, "Der Fürst des Schreckens" ("The Prince of Terror"!):eek:

"Oganga" may be the clear favourite amongst most fans but it's interesting that "Transylvania" generates so much discussion and is still being talked about...because "there is only one thing in the world worse than being talked about and that is..."
 

Le Saboteur

Active member
Montana Smith said:
It appears quite suddenly, as if from nowhere, and is as absurd as the Kafka episode.

The Kafka episode, however, was supposed to absurd.

I also just caught up to the Masks of Evil episode/movie/whatever, and I have to concur: It's the weakest of the lot so far. Indy running around the streets of Constantinople shouting "Where's the document?!" is almost as groan inducing as Spring Break Adventure. "Golly gee, they got guns!"

I primarily have issue with the Constantinople bit. In what should've been a rousing bit of television, Ataturk gets shoehorned into yet another trite spy-lite adventure. That's all Lucas & Co. could think to do with one of the most dynamic figures of the Twentieth Century? I get the impression that they were phoning it in, and trying to extend the "war years" as long as possible. Indy catching up with the Father of all Turks during the Turkish Civil War would've been far more interesting.

And I won't even comment on the Dracula bit.
 

Stoo

Well-known member
Wow, Saboteur. Here is where our tastes clearly diverge because these are some of my favourite episodes. You didn't like Bob Peck's interpretation of Vlad?

For me, the Istanbul episode stands out from the rest because it's one of the few which is played straight and doesn't contain any humour. Re: Ataturk being underused. Sure, the viewer doesn't get a sense of who he was or what he accomplished but sometimes Indy brushes with famous people are just fleeting moments.
 

Le Saboteur

Active member
Stoo said:
Wow, Saboteur. Here is where our tastes clearly diverge because these are some of my favourite episodes.

Unfortunately, yes, in this case our tastes do diverge. I wanted to like them, but both fell on their face in terms of execution.

Stoo said:
You didn't like Bob Peck's interpretation of Vlad?

Yes, but I didn't like having the incisors as his fangs. He reminded me of a shuffling rat at times.

Stoo said:
For me, the Istanbul episode stands out from the rest because it's one of the few which is played straight and doesn't contain any humour.

I really wish they would've called it "Constantinople". The city wasn't renamed "Istanbul" until 1923, and the founding of the Turkish Republic by Ataturk. In my book, that's a fairly significant lapse. Two minutes of dialogue could've remedied any resulting confusion.

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Stoo said:
Re: Ataturk being underused. Sure, the viewer doesn't get a sense of who he was or what he accomplished but sometimes Indy brushes with famous people are just fleeting moments.

I don't mind the fleeting appearance. They could've done so much more with that appearance, however, if they had adjusted the timetable to post-WWI and made an excellent point about colonialism & nationalism in the process. But more importantly, SPF can't emote; he was trying to achieve pathos, and couldn't do it. I spent a lot of time laughing when I shouldn't have been.

The one perk, however, of the episode was seeing a young Peter Firth. He would later go on to play Harry in MI:5/Spooks. Check it out if you haven't seen it.

And for all of his wartime experience, Indy is seemingly unaffected by it all. You'd think he'd be slightly more cynical after four years of warfare.
 

lairdo

Member
Le Saboteur said:
I really wish they would've called it "Constantinople". The city wasn't renamed "Istanbul" until 1923...

I actually suggested that, but George wanted the newer name. The first cut we got actually said "Istambul," which I also pointed out was not the correct US spelling although it is sometimes used outside the US.

Laird
 

Le Saboteur

Active member
lairdo said:
I actually suggested that, but George wanted the newer name. The first cut we got actually said "Istambul," which I also pointed out was not the correct US spelling although it is sometimes used outside the US.

Interesting. I've seen that variant before, but would've preferred that they use "Stamboul."
 

Joosse

New member
Very interesting indeed! :D

But if you look at it as a story told by an older Indy looking back, the name Istanbul does make sense.

Allthough I too would have preferred Constantinople.

Before I realised it had been changed I spent hours pouring over maps as a child, trying to find out where Constantinople actually was... :eek:
 

lairdo

Member
Joosse said:
But if you look at it as a story told by an older Indy looking back, the name Istanbul does make sense.

Yes, that's true about the perspective. However, British East Africa is the name for the episode when Indy is in Africa. Of course today that is Kenya. Similarly Congo would be the modern name for the other Africa episodes. I guess Transylvania is correct from either perspective since there still is that region of Romania. Peking 1910 was used as well instead of the now accepted Beijing. (Heck, I remember growing up and it being Peking!)

So, I think Istanbul is just an inconsistency with how the other shows are named.
 

Joosse

New member
I agree that it is an inconsistancy. Like I said, I too would have preferered Constantinople.

Or even 'Ottoman Empire' if we are going to stay in the same tone and be as broad as 'British East Africa'. But perhaps 'Anatolia' would have been best.

I was just trying to argue the point of why he wanted it to be called Istanbul.

It may also have had to do with the fact that most people in the intended audience would not know where the Ottoman Empire or Anatolia were, but they would know where Istanbul was.
 

Le Saboteur

Active member
Joosse said:
But if you look at it as a story told by an older Indy looking back, the name Istanbul does make sense.

Except that you can't. Old Indy has been jettisoned, and without prior knowledge of his existence the viewer is left to assume that these are actual events that they're experiencing in the third-person limited sense

Joose said:
Before I realised it had been changed I spent hours pouring over maps as a child, trying to find out where Constantinople actually was... :eek:

You and I both! Except I inherited an atlas from my great-great grandmother from the turn-of-the-century that still calls it Constantinople!
 

Stoo

Well-known member
Le Saboteur said:
Yes, but I didn't like having the incisors as his fangs. He reminded me of a shuffling rat at times.
Oh, I like those fangs because they are Nosferatu-style and not the typical kind that are often depitcted.
Le Saboteur said:
I really wish they would've called it "Constantinople". The city wasn't renamed "Istanbul" until 1923, and the founding of the Turkish Republic by Ataturk. In my book, that's a fairly significant lapse. Two minutes of dialogue could've remedied any resulting confusion.
You probably know more about this than I but isn't the 1923 date just the "official" change? It's my understanding that people were already calling it Istanbul before 1923 since it literally means, "In the city".

Here' an interesting tidbit: The boat trip "red line montage" in "Travels With Father" was modified for the DVD! Istanbul is marked on the map in the TV version but changed to Constantinople. An extra stop in Greece was also added. So, the difference in the map sequence goes like this:

T.V.: Odessa > Istanbul > Athens
DVD: Odessa > Constantinople > Thessalonike > Athens

Since this modification was made and all the title/date cards were removed from the VHS/DVDs, the 1st half of "Masks of Evil" doesn't necessarily take place in "Istanbul" anymore.;)
Le Saboteur said:
The one perk, however, of the episode was seeing a young Peter Firth. He would later go on to play Harry in MI:5/Spooks. Check it out if you haven't seen it.
"Young" Peter Firth?!:eek: He's OLD in this episode!:p You have to see "Aces High" from 1976 where he stars with Malcolm McDowell. He's practically a kid! (It's also one of the films that was raided for footage to use in YIJC. Loads of shots from "Hawkmen" are taken from it. See post #19 from this thread: References to other films/TV shows in YI. ) I've never seen "Spooks" but will check it out.:hat:
 

Stoo

Well-known member
lairdo said:
(Heck, I remember growing up and it being Peking!)
Same here. Heck, I still say Peking, The Orient, Bombay, Ceylon, Rhodesia, etc.:eek:

Double post...Ooops!
 

Le Saboteur

Active member
Stoo said:
Oh, I like those fangs because they are Nosferatu-style and not the typical kind that are often depitcted.

They work well on a Nosferatu-like vampire -- they're more in line with a feral looking vampire, than the aristocratic Dracula.

Stoo said:
You probably know more about this than I but isn't the 1923 date just the "official" change? It's my understanding that people were already calling it Istanbul before 1923 since it literally means, "In the city".

From what I recall, the Greek on which the name derives, translates to "in the city," "to the city," or "downtown." So when they were using the expression "is tan ˈpolin", it's to this latter translation I have always felt they were referring to. During the time period, this would indicate that area around The Golden Horn where the Topkapi Sarayi, Grand Bazaar, Spice Bazaar, etc. were located. In short, the cultural, political, religious and commercial center of the Ottoman Empire. It's similar to the difference between Manhattan & New York City.

On a related note, I don't have specifics at hand, but I believe a significant amount of the development on the Anatolian side of the Bosphorus is a fairly modern development. Duh, right? For some reason Turks love their pre-fab & concrete apartment buildings, and have let all those rad Ottoman mansions go to pot. I could get one for a hundred and change.

Stoo said:
Here' an interesting tidbit: The boat trip "red line montage" in "Travels With Father" was modified for the DVD! Istanbul is marked on the map in the TV version but changed to Constantinople. An extra stop in Greece was also added. So, the difference in the map sequence goes like this:

T.V.: Odessa > Istanbul > Athens
DVD: Odessa > Constantinople > Thessalonike > Athens

Since this modification was made and all the title/date cards were removed from the VHS/DVDs, the 1st half of "Masks of Evil" doesn't necessarily take place in "Istanbul" anymore.;)

Interesting! Odd thing is, I am almost certain that route is an actual ferry route that's in service today. I'll need to dig out my ferry schedule, but it makes perfect sense from a historical perspective. Though, I'm nearly certain that they filmed in Istanbul; the architecture doesn't quite match anywhere else.

Stoo said:
"Young" Peter Firth?!:eek: He's OLD in this episode!:p

Okay, okay! A younger Peter Firth than I'm used to. I'm only conscious of his work in Spooks so anything that he has hair in makes 'im seem young. I'll definitely add "Aces High" to my list of movies to watch.
 
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Le Saboteur

Active member
Joosse said:
Or even 'Ottoman Empire' if we are going to stay in the same tone and be as broad as 'British East Africa'. But perhaps 'Anatolia' would have been best.


It's splitting hairs, but British East Africa encompassed roughly the same area as present-day Kenya. In the context of that episode, it's fine because Indy ranges over a large swath of said area. Ottoman Empire would be apt if Indy also ranged over the Empire, but he was geographically constrained to Istanbul/Constantinople. Anatolia would be an interesting choice, but also incorrect --Istanbul is also on the Thracian side of the Bosporus. If we're going with the idea that Istanbul corresponds to downtown, then definitely not.

Joose said:
It may also have had to do with the fact that most people in the intended audience would not know where the Ottoman Empire or Anatolia were, but they would know where Istanbul was.

There's an interesting idea in this statement - and it's something I've been thinking about lately for the genre at large. Is the genre obligated to impart some measure of edu-tainment, or is it okay to cater to publi expectations, wrong or otherwise?
 

Junior Jones

New member
Constantinople vs Istanbul

Joosse said:
But if you look at it as a story told by an older Indy looking back, the name Istanbul does make sense.

Except that this episode never had Old Indy bookends.

I recently watched it again and it prompted further historical research and some minor revisions to my Instruments of Chaos adaptation.

Besides the Constantinople/Istanbul discrepancy, Stephan refers to Ankara, which I believe was still known as Angora at the time. Although that could be a pronunciation thing, since he speaks with a supposedly Bulgarian accent.

Phil
 

Stoo

Well-known member
lairdo said:
And don't forget Burma!

(Plus all the Balkan countries now.)
Montana Smith said:
...and Czechoslovakia, which came and went. And Siam.
dr.jones1986 said:
and British Honduras
...or Indy's adventure in "Palestine, October 1917" which doesn't exist anymore.:p:whip:
Le Saboteur said:
They work well on a Nosferatu-like vampire -- they're more in line with a feral looking vampire, than the aristocratic Dracula.
I'm just glad they took a different route for the look of the main vampire and can't stop praising Bob Peck as Vlad. When I found out that he was the same actor who had played the raptor keeper in "Jurassic Park", I was floored!
Le Sabouteur said:
Though, I'm nearly certain that they filmed in Istanbul; the architecture doesn't quite match anywhere else.
It was indeed. Check out post #15 of this thread: Masks of Evil (Istanbul) for some details (where this discussion would be a bit more appropriate...but it's a little late for that:p). Thanks for all the other info on Istanbul, Sab.

For fun, maybe I'll make a replacement for the title card reading, "Constantinople, September 1918".;)
Junior Jones said:
Besides the Constantinople/Istanbul discrepancy, Stephan refers to Ankara, which I believe was still known as Angora at the time. Although that could be a pronunciation thing, since he speaks with a supposedly Bulgarian accent.
Yes, Phil.:hat: I was going to bring this up, too. Would love to know what went on there. Many months ago, I checked the subtitles and they say, 'Ankara'.
 
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