Indy V is in China???

EvilEmperorZoRG said:

By the way, we don't need to have communists. We can have both communists and Chinese Gangsters as the enemy but with the gangsters as the main villain.

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As great as this sounds, didn't Spielberg and Lucas decide after ToD that all Indy villains had to be white, so as to lessen the complaints of racism? There were even comments from Russians complaining about their cartoonish depiction in KotCS.

Surely this means that Indy V, if we ever get it, won't feature any Asian/African/Hispanic/Eastern European villains. Even if it's partly set in China, expect the villains to be white...

Toht's Arm said:

As great as this sounds, didn't Spielberg and Lucas decide after ToD that all Indy villains had to be white, so as to lessen the complaints of racism? There were even comments from Russians complaining about their cartoonish depiction in KotCS.

Surely this means that Indy V, if we ever get it, won't feature any Asian/African/Hispanic/Eastern European villains. Even if it's partly set in China, expect the villains to be white...

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Did Spielberg and Lucas, in fact, say as much? I don't recall ever hearing of it. And the Sultan of Hatay is quite ethnically silly a character. Not a villain, but still.

Toht's Arm said:

As great as this sounds, didn't Spielberg and Lucas decide after ToD that all Indy villains had to be white, so as to lessen the complaints of racism? There were even comments from Russians complaining about their cartoonish depiction in KotCS.

Surely this means that Indy V, if we ever get it, won't feature any Asian/African/Hispanic/Eastern European villains. Even if it's partly set in China, expect the villains to be white...

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I don't recall Spielberg or Lucas saying anything like this either. And, it would be downright silly, in my opinion.
They are bad guys on a screen, in a fictional world - people get way too worked up over such trivial things when they could be spending their time on something that truly matters instead.

Toht's Arm said:

As great as this sounds, didn't Spielberg and Lucas decide after ToD that all Indy villains had to be white, so as to lessen the complaints of racism? There were even comments from Russians complaining about their cartoonish depiction in KotCS.

Surely this means that Indy V, if we ever get it, won't feature any Asian/African/Hispanic/Eastern European villains. Even if it's partly set in China, expect the villains to be white...

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Attila the Professor said:

Did Spielberg and Lucas, in fact, say as much? I don't recall ever hearing of it. And the Sultan of Hatay is quite ethnically silly a character. Not a villain, but still.

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The Drifter said:

I don't recall Spielberg or Lucas saying anything like this either.

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I've never heard that either. Is it some confusion over the negative criticism of the depiction of Indian culture in TOD?

For the record KOTCS had the non-white cemetery guards and Ugha warriors. But the Soviets were obviously going to be the main foe.

Fair enough. Most of the peeps here are more knowledgeable about things Indy than I. I suppose I was thinking about responses such as this, which are pretty damning:

http://articles.timesofindia.indiat..._1_film-scores-indian-temple-steven-spielberg

I don't know exactly where I got the idea that the beards aimed to avoid non-white villains from ToD on, but I thought I'd seen it written that they had effectively made such a decision.

My logic, specifically regarding Indy in China, was that Hollywood certainly caters for the country nowadays (you needn't look further than the post production changes that have been made to the Red Dawn reboot, changing the invaders from Chinese to North Korean) and thus they'd want to be careful not to offend.

Toht's Arm said:

Fair enough. Most of the peeps here are more knowledgeable about things Indy than I. I suppose I was thinking about responses such as this, which are pretty damning:

http://articles.timesofindia.indiat..._1_film-scores-indian-temple-steven-spielberg

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It <I>is</I> pretty damning, and I agree that it's hard not to see this element of Temple of Doom as a blot on the franchise.

Toht's Arm said:

I don't know exactly where I got the idea that the beards aimed to avoid non-white villains from ToD on, but I thought I'd seen it written that they had effectively made such a decision.

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I'd be curious to see, or just to know anything else you remember along these lines. It's not impossible, but it's just not ringing any bells on my end.

Toht's Arm said:

My logic, specifically regarding Indy in China, was that Hollywood certainly caters for the country nowadays (you needn't look further than the post production changes that have been made to the Red Dawn reboot, changing the invaders from Chinese to North Korean) and thus they'd want to be careful not to offend.

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There certainly is logic to this, especially considering that China's regime has more continuity with its predecessors in Indy's time than modern Russia has with the Soviet Union of the 1950s. (I mean this in a purely institutional sense, not as a matter of policy in any sense whatever.)

And I confess that I really know the bare minimum about China in that period, so the locale doesn't capture my imagination too much as the only thing that seems clear about it is that Indy would be forced to be tiptoeing around a Communist regime in its own backyard. There'd be a strong level of danger involved, but it seems like it wouldn't leave much latitude for foreign elements and characters, which are a traditional element of the Indiana Jones formula.

Attila the Professor said:

It <I>is</I> pretty damning, and I agree that it's hard not to see this element of Temple of Doom as a blot on the franchise.

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In retaliation I would argue that Bollywood was an offensive blot on Indian cinema. The plaguerism of western movies with the addition of hordes of dancers and a shrieking soundtrack played over mime artists. By comparison Mola Ram's method of torture was much more humane.

The question is whether it's offensive to pastiche a style of cinema that was inherently racist to begin with. At least Spielberg opted for a quota of Asian actors - despite Shashi Tharoor's cheap journalistic jab, "...a Chinese sidekick (actually played by a Vietnamese, but the filmmakers probably figured that all Orientals look alike)..."

And with regards to: "It was of a country where evil, poverty and destitution reigned until the Great White Hero could intervene to restore justice and prosperity." Not only does this negate the fact that the slave revolt was initiated by Shorty, but also the fact that India in the present day still resembles the quotation: massive slums butting up against the homes of millionaires busy buying up westen companies, while western governments simultaneously donate aid to India.

You can play the propaganda game from both sides, but in the end Temple of Doom was intentionally pulpy, and like most pulps was set within a fantastical representation of history.

As Toht's Arm mentioned earlier, Russia played this same card when KOTCS was released. Yet the villains in the Indy movies have been represented by various countries and cultures, as have the good guys. It would be impossible not to upset somebody when making these kinds of films.

Montana Smith said:

As Toht's Arm mentioned earlier, Russia played this same card when KOTCS was released. Yet the villains in the Indy movies have been represented by various countries and cultures, as have the good guys. It would be impossible not to upset somebody when making these kinds of films.

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Absolutely; I would have thought that such innaccurate stereotypes were exactly what you'd find in pulp adventures. Filmmakers are a lot more culturally sensitive these days (I can't imagine ToD being made in 2011), however, so it makes me wonder if an Indy V could be anything but toothless.

The irony is that very few people would be offended by the negative representation of Nazies, yet Spielberg has no wish to go there with Indy anymore...

Toht's Arm said:

The irony is that very few people would be offended by the negative representation of Nazies, yet Spielberg has no wish to go there with Indy anymore...

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Did he say that? If he did surely its because they've been done twice already, or because it'd be difficult to incorporate them into a '50s setting?

Its interesting, I do actually recall Spielberg saying he disliked the cartoonish depiction of violence in the Indiana Jones films (this was before []KOTCS[/i]) since having "grown up" and done Schindler's List etc.

Yet KOTCS, while it has notably less violence and death dealt with in a flippant manner, still has some.

oki9Sedo said:

Did he say that? If he did surely its because they've been done twice already, or because it'd be difficult to incorporate them into a '50s setting?

Its interesting, I do actually recall Spielberg saying he disliked the cartoonish depiction of violence in the Indiana Jones films (this was before []KOTCS[/i]) since having "grown up" and done Schindler's List etc.

Yet KOTCS, while it has notably less violence and death dealt with in a flippant manner, still has some.

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I don't recall his problem being with cartoon violence generally but rather with cartoon Nazis.

Attila the Professor said:

I don't recall his problem being with cartoon violence generally but rather with cartoon Nazis.

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Ah yes, you are indeed correct. So why doesn't he have a problem with cartoon Russians then, I wonder?

oki9Sedo said:

Ah yes, you are indeed correct. So why doesn't he have a problem with cartoon Russians then, I wonder?

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Well, he seems pretty public about taking his Judaism - or perhaps I should say Jewishness, because it seems more a matter of a people than of a faith to him - seriously. It seems like something he more or less discovered in himself while making Schindler's List. That seriousness seems to extend to the whole of World War II, as apparent in Saving Private Ryan.

It just doesn't seem to extend to the Cold War or the Soviet Union's victims. Of course, if Harrison Ford were younger, and they had the option of setting the film in the era of Stalin's rule, and did not do so, then maybe we'd have reason to think that he has at least some qualms about cartoon Russians. As it is, though...

And if what I suggest is true, regarding Stalin's 1953 death, then we wouldn't be seeing China: Mao didn't die until 1976.

oki9Sedo said:

So why doesn't he have a problem with cartoon Russians then, I wonder?

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Attila pretty much answered your question. Making "Schindler's List" was a self-professed, turning point in his philosophy.

Re: Indy 5 in China.
DiscoLad might enjoy an Indy 5 with the Chinese as villians. He doesn't like the Chinese...but he likes guns.

I don't mind Indy V taking place in China as long as it is not confined only there. I'm much into a story that spreads around the globe like Last Crusade did. And most of? Make Indy dirty again. In Skull he seemed like he had just come out of the dry cleaner.

Hollywood could really make the Red Chinese happy.

Set the film in 1950's Tibet.

WilliamBoyd8 said:

Hollywood could really make the Red Chinese happy.

Set the film in 1950's Tibet.

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That could work.

Toht's Arm said:

...Nazis, yet Spielberg has no wish to go there with Indy anymore...

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Nazis are played out. I for one hope Nazis are never again featured as a villain in an Indiana Jones picture/game/novel. It's a cheap and lazy plot device that holds the series back.

After thirty years of earth tones, Indiana Jones is in desperate need of a palette swap. A major palette swap. I've suggested elsewhere that a trip to China or one of the other Asiatic cultures and their open embrace of color is just what the series needs to kick off the cobwebs. Just imagine the thrill of seeing Indy amongst flashing reds, blues, and yellows!

Sakis said:

I'm much into a story that spreads around the globe like Last Crusade did.

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Emphasis added. Where did this misconception begin? Was it the books? The video games? Somebody somewhere started to string together locales that have zero historical relation and this idea that every Indy adventure spans the globe stuck.

Just because Santa Fe!, Lagos!, Bucharest!, Kuala Lumpur! sounds cool, they bear no relation to each other. Any story you hang onto that framework is already contrived and ill-fitting. If the story centers around Chinese history or a Chinese artifact, then the locale is going to need to be fixed to Southeast Asia.

Attila the Professor said:

And if what I suggest is true, regarding Stalin's 1953 death, then we wouldn't be seeing China: Mao didn't die until 1976.

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I believe I've mentioned before that there's a lot of ground to explore in the FBI's disbelief in Indy's credentials as a "Good American". Why? He had to have done something for the idea to come up; a globe trotting archeologist is bound to know a few of the "wrong people," but the idea was passed over.

Mao's death in 1976 puts China out of reach for a post-Crystal Skull adventure. However, 1951-52 is a wonderfully chaotic time in China's history to drop Indy into. One one side you have the Soviets & Mao's Communists. On the other, you have Chiang Kai-shek's Nationalists and the Americans supplying him with arms & munitions. Again, lots of opportunity here for those willing to put in the effort. The timeframe also happens to be workable with both Harrison's & Indy's respective ages.

Le Saboteur said:

Do you hear that? It's the sound of every Chinese cash register slamming shut. Disney isn't going to hamstring themselves with the burgeoning Chinese audience. Especially with Shanghai Disneyland mere months from opening.

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I don't know how to qualify or quantify that. Did the movies perform worse in South America, Germany, India and Russia because of the villains portrayed in the first four movies? I ask that question without any presumption, because your point is quite possibly valid.

This touches on the old racism issue that some have tried to tack on to poor old ToD. The movies don't represent race, they represent the theme of good guys and bad guys who happen to spring from a race. IJ is a very well educated American caucasian and given his fluency in such a breadth of languages and his professional interest in cultures and societies everywhere he would have to be one of the most un-racist characters invented for cinema.

If a plot of Indy5 is set in China and the bad guys are Chinese, will this represent Chinese people badly at all? Or will it be a specific group that history may already have vilified? Would it be something the current Chinese Administration takes offence to? I am sure all these considerations are taken into account by whomever writes the stories and scripts.

We know the Indian government wanted to heavily revise the script of ToD to the point that filming in India became impossible. A story set in early last century China for Indy5, no matter how sensibly removed from current status quo, might offend the Chinese government who may then interfere with the movie's success in that country. I suppose this is where diplomacy is required and taking careful steps.

Villians like Nazis, Thuggees and Stalinist Communists are just ripe for cinema adventures. History has groomed them for that, amongst other things. Monty peeled off several considerations for villains connected to China that may very well work.

As this subject has recently come up in a different thread, I've taken the liberty of moving Mickiana's post entirely on this subject to this thread, as well as excerpting below some comments on the same.

Montana Smith said:

Just go to Shanghai and there's a myriad of options: International Settlements; Du Yuesheng's Triad Green Gang (which could mean bringing back Lao Che and the TOD back story); Japanese invasions; Chiang Kai-shek's Nationalists; Mao's Communists; heavily armed pirates off-shore.

Indy's adventures in China could fill an entire series leading up to Short Round picking his pocket and the Club Obi-Wan diamond/urn trade.

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Mickiana said:

That's right. Plenty of enemies to pit against IJ. Probably plenty of treasures and artefacts in there too. Who could we appeal to? Doesn't Disney see what we see?

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Spurlock said:

Yeah, that's what I am saying, you don't need Nazis to have a good Indiana Jones (at least I hope not). Although I feel like several films set in China would take away from his globetrotting reputation.

Another question, if they made another film with Ford, going to china, would you want to see more Short Round?

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Le Saboteur said:

Do you hear that? It's the sound of every Chinese cash register slamming shut. Disney isn't going to hamstring themselves with the burgeoning Chinese audience. Especially with Shanghai Disneyland mere months from opening.

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Spurlock said:

Well I meant more if you had more than one movie based in China. One film in China is fine, China is so massive and varied that it deserves a movie all to itself. But two... not so much.

And I think the chinese would love an Indiana Jones film featuring their country as more than a pit stop. Tons of movies are already attempting to incorporate chinese culture into their movies in an attempt to pull in bigger box office numbers. The only difference is that for those movies, like Iron Man 3 or Transformers 4, it isn't natural, whereas Indiana going to China is perfectly reasonable. Given they depict the chinese people in a good light, not like they did to Indians apparently, it could be a huge success over there.

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(And Mickiana's post directly above this one slots in at this point in the sequence.)

So, for one, this seems like a reasonable time for a reminder that Russian Communists, in 2008, objected to the portrayal of their 1950s brethren and forebears in Kingdom of the Crystal Skull. As written in the Daily Mail...

They have condemned Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull as crude anti-Soviet propaganda and want it banned from the country.

[...]

Communists, however, say the actors are serving as the 'running dogs' of the CIA.

Party member Viktor Perov said: ' What galls is how together with America we defeated Hitler, and how we sympathised when Bin Laden hit them.
'But they go ahead and scare kids with Communists.'

Communist numbers have dwindled since Soviet times, but its members see themselves as the defenders of the achievements of the old Soviet Union.

They fear Russian children are being fed revisionist Hollywood history and have appealed to Russia's culture ministry to ban the Indiana film to prevent ' ideological sabotage'.

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Now, I do think it's likely that KotCS deals more directly with Communism than a Chinese Indy V would have any need to. It establishes a new Cold War reality complete with McCarthyite tendencies, namechecks Stalin as a supporter of Spalko, has Spalko speak of "the true version of history," and includes both (Red army?) ants and the 13 alien skeletons as reflections of a Communist ideal. The only one of those that would likely require an equivalent would be the second, as Mao was still around through 1976. However, that's no small detail. China is still officially Communist, unlike Russia, <I>and</I> China is a much bigger market than Russia is. That makes things dicey.

After all, the 2012 remake of the original Reagan-era Red Dawn changed its bad guys from Chinese to North Korean:

Wikipedia said:

In June 2010, release of the film was delayed due to MGM?s financial difficulties. The delay came amid growing controversy in China after excerpts of the script were leaked on the website The Awl. The film drew sharp criticism from the Global Times, one of the leading Chinese state-run newspapers, with headlines such as "U.S. reshoots Cold War movie to demonize China" and "American movie plants hostile seeds against China". One of the articles stated: "China can still feel U.S. distrust and fear, especially among its people. Americans' suspicions about China are the best ground for the hawks to disseminate fear and doubt, which is the biggest concern with the movie, Red Dawn.

[...]

In March 2011, the Los Angeles Times reported that MGM changed the villains in its Red Dawn remake from Chinese to North Korean in order to maintain access to China's lucrative box office. The changes reportedly cost less than $1 million and involve changing an opening sequence summarizing the story's fictional backdrop (dropping the original storyline of Chinese "repossession" after the US defaults on loans for a North Korean invasion), re-editing two scenes, and using digital technology to change Chinese symbols and dialogue to Korean. The film's producer Trip Vinson stated: "We were initially very reluctant to make any changes, but after careful consideration we constructed a way to make a scarier, smarter and more dangerous Red Dawn that we believe improves the movie.

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muttjones said:

I, as well as many other people at the raven think that if they were to make an Indy V that it would be good to set it in china.

The setting is great, there are communists, even Lao Che and his gang could make an appearance!!!

So what do you all think??

If Indy V was set in China, what would the storyline be?

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I doubt that the gangs could've survived long in communist China, especially the wealthy ones. They fled to Hong Kong or Taiwan. Some even fled to the States.

Le Saboteur said:

Mao's death in 1976 puts China out of reach for a post-Crystal Skull adventure. However, 1951-52 is a wonderfully chaotic time in China's history to drop Indy into. One one side you have the Soviets & Mao's Communists. On the other, you have Chiang Kai-shek's Nationalists and the Americans supplying him with arms & munitions. Again, lots of opportunity here for those willing to put in the effort. The timeframe also happens to be workable with both Harrison's & Indy's respective ages.

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Chang Kai-shek had already lost mainland China in 1950. Soon after, communist China was busy with the Korean War from late 1950 to 1953.